So there findings have been tested and verified in controlled conditions then?
Do you have a link to this claim?
Look for them yourself. There are many paranormal research teams all across the world with sites on the internet. There are also an untold number of books written on the subject.
As I said, ultimately I am not trying to prove anything to anyone. I have said that you can not say something does not exist simply because you do not have proof, to your satisfaction, that it does.
I have had experience with them and one glaringly obvious thing I know from my own experiences and those I've heard and read about is that many people readily become quite irrational when using them.
Sorry, I said 'an experience' rather than just had experience with one. I'll say straight off that I'm not having a go at you or anyone else that is sceptical.
I can honestly say that I have had the glass spinning round with no one touching it which was obviously quite freaky (this was about 20 years ago with close friends).
Look for them yourself. There are many paranormal research teams all across the world with sites on the internet. There are also an untold number of books written on the subject.
As I said, ultimately I am not trying to prove anything to anyone. I have said that you can not say something does not exist simply because you do not have proof, to your satisfaction, that it does.
That's reasonable. That makes sense.
There's your biggest clue, right there - for all the *paranormal research teams* and the *untold number of books* there is nothing that has been shown to be genuine when all opportunities to cheat are removed. Apply even a small amount of critical thinking to that and the only conclusion can be...
(I'll give you a clue - it's not that genuine paranormal stuff really happens)
Sorry, I said 'an experience' rather than just had experience with one. I'll say straight off that I'm not having a go at you or anyone else that is sceptical.
I can honestly say that I have had the glass spinning round with no one touching it which was obviously quite freaky (this was about 20 years ago with close friends).
Unless you have proper controls in place, though, you really can't be sure if what you witnessed was genuine. Even close friends try to fool one another sometimes and the whole thing could've been set up by one or more of them (I know you'll probably disagree but what's more likely - that you were tricked by a mate or that you made contact with the dead?). The other thing is - and please don't take it as a dig - that people often remember things very, very wrongly and stories like this grow ever more amazing as time passes.
So, like I say, without those controls you really can't be sure what you saw.
There's your biggest clue, right there - for all the *paranormal research teams* and the *untold number of books* there is nothing that has been shown to be genuine when all opportunities to cheat are removed. Apply even a small amount of critical thinking to that and the only conclusion can be...
(I'll give you a clue - it's not that genuine paranormal stuff really happens)
Nonsense. That's just your opinion of their results and their experiences.
An open minded scientist would simply say he or she can not explain many of the things they experience or record.
If you were concerned about "critical thinking" then you would see the sense in not concluding that something can not exist just because there is yet to be proof, especially to your satisfaction, that it does.
Unless you have proper controls in place, though, you really can't be sure if what you witnessed was genuine. Even close friends try to fool one another sometimes and the whole thing could've been set up by one or more of them (I know you'll probably disagree but what's more likely - that you were tricked by a mate or that you made contact with the dead?). The other thing is - and please don't take it as a dig - that people often remember things very, very wrongly and stories like this grow ever more amazing as time passes.
So, like I say, without those controls you really can't be sure what you saw.
I can see why you might think that and think that it may be the case it many reports. However as I set the whole board up and used my own stuff I know this was not the case. I know it's nearly 20 years ago now but it is and has always been very fresh in my mind.
Whether we were taking with the dead (not convinced on that one) or whether it as some sort of psychokinesis (something I do believe in) is a whole other debate.
I will further say that I am a committed atheist that has no truck with magic babies etc. so am not attributing my experience to anything spiritual at all.
I can see why you might think that and think that it may be the case it many reports. However as I set the whole board up and used my own stuff I know this was not the case. I know it's nearly 20 years ago now but it is and has always been very fresh in my mind.
Whether we were taking with the dead (not convinced on that one) or whether it as some sort of psychokinesis (something I do believe in) is a whole other debate.
I will further say that I am a committed atheist that has no truck with magic babies etc. so am not attributing my experience to anything spiritual at all.
Thing is she doesn't believe in anything paranormal.
I can see why you might think that and think that it may be the case it many reports. However as I set the whole board up and used my own stuff I know this was not the case. I know it's nearly 20 years ago now but it is and has always been very fresh in my mind.
Whether we were taking with the dead (not convinced on that one) or whether it as some sort of psychokinesis (something I do believe in) is a whole other debate.
I will further say that I am a committed atheist that has no truck with magic babies etc. so am not attributing my experience to anything spiritual at all.
I used to live in a house that was haunted - it was full of 'them'. The priest came and did some sort of blessing and told me that he would have to go to a higher authority if it continued. It did, and it got worse. Eventually a medium came in and he was very good and he got rid of 'them'. Later, I found out by chance from someone that the lady who lived there before me used to hold seances. Be careful.
To be honest I can't remember exactly. I think it was supposed to be an old fisherman (I was living in Hull at the time). Like I said, I don't particularly believe it was a ghost (although I am not a complete disbeliever in them). I do think the brain is much more powerful than anyone understands though.
To be honest I can't remember exactly. I think it was supposed to be an old fisherman (I was living in Hull at the time). Like I said, I don't particularly believe it was a ghost (although I am not a complete disbeliever in them). I do think the brain is much more powerful than anyone understands though.
Powerful enough to give people messages that they themselves could not have knowledge of?
That's the thing, many people have gotten such messages, and certainly not just through a Q board.
To be honest I can't remember exactly. I think it was supposed to be an old fisherman (I was living in Hull at the time). Like I said, I don't particularly believe it was a ghost (although I am not a complete disbeliever in them). I do think the brain is much more powerful than anyone understands though.
Me too.
Although we can't prove that, as we don't understand it yet.
Nonsense. That's just your opinion of their results and their experiences.
An open minded scientist would simply say he or she can not explain many of the things they experience or record.
An open minded scientist sets up experiments that eliminate stuff like cheating. It's a fact that people cheat and it's a fact that if you allow them the opportunity to cheat, many will. An open minded scientist knows that without proper controls anything he or she tries to publish will be laughed at by other open minded scientists. Open minded scientists devise clever experiments, repeat them, get their peers to repeat them, and then the whole lot of them reach some conclusions.
In the case of paranormal stuff, plenty of experiments with controls that prevent cheating have been devised, performed and repeated. Using the results, open minded scientists have concluded that there is no evidence for paranormal activity.
If you were concerned about "critical thinking" then you would see the sense in not concluding that something can not exist just because there is yet to be proof, especially to your satisfaction, that it does.
All I'm actually saying is that paranormal activity has never been shown to exist when cheating is eliminated. If that state of affairs changes I'll be more than happy to say that we finally have some evidence for the paranormal. I'm open minded enough to say so without any problem. I'm also sensible enough to know that if you repeatedly test for something and fail to find it, there's a good chance the stuff you're testing for actually doesn't exist. Some stuff doesn't actually exist you know. All current evidence shows that the paranormal falls into that group.
It's sad that so many people in this forum have their minds closed to anything outside of themselves and what is obvious.
Why do people who accuse others of being "close minded" never understand what the phrase means?
It's not close minded to think Ouija boards are complete bollocks. In fact, it's the logical conclusion to reach considering the lack of evidence and much more plausible explanation (ideomotor effect).
I can see why you might think that and think that it may be the case it many reports. However as I set the whole board up and used my own stuff I know this was not the case. I know it's nearly 20 years ago now but it is and has always been very fresh in my mind.
Whether we were taking with the dead (not convinced on that one) or whether it as some sort of psychokinesis (something I do believe in) is a whole other debate.
I will further say that I am a committed atheist that has no truck with magic babies etc. so am not attributing my experience to anything spiritual at all.
I don't doubt that something happened. What I am saying, I suppose, is that there might easily be a fairly pragmatic explanation for it, simply one that you haven't thought of, or not yet.
It's a fascinating subject and we should carry on exploring it, I think. But we'll only get anywhere (maybe) if we're really ruthlessly strict with ourselves.
That's all well and good but you seem completely closed minded when it comes to my invisibility.
Yes, I've seen this from you a while back when we were having a debate on something similar to this. I said back then that you were just winding me up. I stand by that right now as well - except not with me, but with them.
I'm obviously not the one that is "close minded" in this discussion.
Personally I would say its more close minded to attribute currently unexplainable phenomena to "ghosts" or "god" than to try and seek an alternative verifiable and logical reason.
I mean, where would we be if we were still "open-minded" enough to think that illness was caused by spirits and daylight was caused by a god driving his chariot across the sky?
Yes, I've seen this from you a while back when we were having a debate on something similar to this. I said back then that you were just winding me up. I stand by that right now as well - except not with me, but with them.
No wind up - just a perfectly serious point being made with a touch of humour.
Comments
Look for them yourself. There are many paranormal research teams all across the world with sites on the internet. There are also an untold number of books written on the subject.
As I said, ultimately I am not trying to prove anything to anyone. I have said that you can not say something does not exist simply because you do not have proof, to your satisfaction, that it does.
That's reasonable. That makes sense.
Sorry, I said 'an experience' rather than just had experience with one. I'll say straight off that I'm not having a go at you or anyone else that is sceptical.
I can honestly say that I have had the glass spinning round with no one touching it which was obviously quite freaky (this was about 20 years ago with close friends).
There's your biggest clue, right there - for all the *paranormal research teams* and the *untold number of books* there is nothing that has been shown to be genuine when all opportunities to cheat are removed. Apply even a small amount of critical thinking to that and the only conclusion can be...
(I'll give you a clue - it's not that genuine paranormal stuff really happens)
It's sad that so many people in this forum have their minds closed to anything outside of themselves and what is obvious.
No wonder there are so many people suffering from depression. That's what a lack of faith does to you.
Unless you have proper controls in place, though, you really can't be sure if what you witnessed was genuine. Even close friends try to fool one another sometimes and the whole thing could've been set up by one or more of them (I know you'll probably disagree but what's more likely - that you were tricked by a mate or that you made contact with the dead?). The other thing is - and please don't take it as a dig - that people often remember things very, very wrongly and stories like this grow ever more amazing as time passes.
So, like I say, without those controls you really can't be sure what you saw.
That's all well and good but you seem completely closed minded when it comes to my invisibility.
Nonsense. That's just your opinion of their results and their experiences.
An open minded scientist would simply say he or she can not explain many of the things they experience or record.
If you were concerned about "critical thinking" then you would see the sense in not concluding that something can not exist just because there is yet to be proof, especially to your satisfaction, that it does.
I'm obviously not the one that is "close minded" in this discussion.
I can see why you might think that and think that it may be the case it many reports. However as I set the whole board up and used my own stuff I know this was not the case. I know it's nearly 20 years ago now but it is and has always been very fresh in my mind.
Whether we were taking with the dead (not convinced on that one) or whether it as some sort of psychokinesis (something I do believe in) is a whole other debate.
I will further say that I am a committed atheist that has no truck with magic babies etc. so am not attributing my experience to anything spiritual at all.
Thing is she doesn't believe in anything paranormal.
What were you told?
How patronising! A lack of faith is simply a refusal to believe in something that hasn't been proven. How does this make one depressed?
To be honest I can't remember exactly. I think it was supposed to be an old fisherman (I was living in Hull at the time). Like I said, I don't particularly believe it was a ghost (although I am not a complete disbeliever in them). I do think the brain is much more powerful than anyone understands though.
A lack of faith in your self is, I believe, the main thing troubling people that suffer from extended periods of depression.
Powerful enough to give people messages that they themselves could not have knowledge of?
That's the thing, many people have gotten such messages, and certainly not just through a Q board.
Me too.
Although we can't prove that, as we don't understand it yet.
But we're not talking about depressed people are we?
Obviously, but you asked and I answered you.
An open minded scientist sets up experiments that eliminate stuff like cheating. It's a fact that people cheat and it's a fact that if you allow them the opportunity to cheat, many will. An open minded scientist knows that without proper controls anything he or she tries to publish will be laughed at by other open minded scientists. Open minded scientists devise clever experiments, repeat them, get their peers to repeat them, and then the whole lot of them reach some conclusions.
In the case of paranormal stuff, plenty of experiments with controls that prevent cheating have been devised, performed and repeated. Using the results, open minded scientists have concluded that there is no evidence for paranormal activity.
All I'm actually saying is that paranormal activity has never been shown to exist when cheating is eliminated. If that state of affairs changes I'll be more than happy to say that we finally have some evidence for the paranormal. I'm open minded enough to say so without any problem. I'm also sensible enough to know that if you repeatedly test for something and fail to find it, there's a good chance the stuff you're testing for actually doesn't exist. Some stuff doesn't actually exist you know. All current evidence shows that the paranormal falls into that group.
It's not close minded to think Ouija boards are complete bollocks. In fact, it's the logical conclusion to reach considering the lack of evidence and much more plausible explanation (ideomotor effect).
I fail to see the link between a "lack of faith in your self" and believing in ghosts.
I don't doubt that something happened. What I am saying, I suppose, is that there might easily be a fairly pragmatic explanation for it, simply one that you haven't thought of, or not yet.
It's a fascinating subject and we should carry on exploring it, I think. But we'll only get anywhere (maybe) if we're really ruthlessly strict with ourselves.
Yes, I've seen this from you a while back when we were having a debate on something similar to this. I said back then that you were just winding me up. I stand by that right now as well - except not with me, but with them.
Personally I would say its more close minded to attribute currently unexplainable phenomena to "ghosts" or "god" than to try and seek an alternative verifiable and logical reason.
I mean, where would we be if we were still "open-minded" enough to think that illness was caused by spirits and daylight was caused by a god driving his chariot across the sky?
No wind up - just a perfectly serious point being made with a touch of humour.