We didn't agree on that this summer, seems like we still won't this autumn
Anyway, I can't call a man who shoots his wife, his two kids and himself a man of courage. He was in a corner, yes, but he was a puppet who never found voice enough to say no (think of those beautifully played scenes in the Cabinet : his emotions were on his face but he never said a word, he never said no !). He was a coward, a spineless civil servant like so many were in invaded countries and Germany during WWII , he died thinking everything was lost, not even trying to reveal what was going on to the many journalists in front of his door who could have created a worldwide uproar in an instant.
Tragic, yes. Great character, absolutely. Courageous, not in my book.
Right well this week instead of a review I am going to do a top 10 points of interest about each episode. so
Day one
1. The scenes where the children all stop are very well done, bravo to those kids. I mean we all know how hard it is to get kids to behave!
2. The hospital scene with Jack and Ianto makes me LOL!
3. When Gwen speaks to the photo of Owen and Tosh!
4. I'm glad that Doctor didn't end up joining TW he was a bit of a drip...
5. ....but even knowing what is going to happen it's still a shock when he shoots Jack in the back! :eek:
6. The scenes with Jack and Ianto and their familys are wonderful, even more so when you know what their fates will be.
7. The soultion to how to defeat the 456 is right under the noses of Torchwood from the moment they realise that Clem is somehow tuned in to the 456. Their mistake is perhaps not focusing on him more when they eventually are all together in episode 4. But either way, the suggestion in some quarters that the resoultion is pulled out of thin air is false.
8. has to be said on review it is a bit implausable that Louis would be given access to such senstive data by someone as experienced and smart as Bridget. Just sayin....
9. The scene where the hub (and jack) is destroyed is amazing stuff....at this point we know anything can happen and the rule book has been thrown out of the window!
10. It's amazing how LIGHT this episode feels now you know how dark this will get.
So much you and I agree on
My favourites
A) The hospital scene - love Ianto's face on 'couple' and Jack not looking happy also when they pull out the hitch-hiker.
Agree about the Doctor and I did love Johnson immdeiately even though she was a baddie. So good to see a strong and ruthless woman with her hair down!
C) Absolutely love the scene with Ianto and his sister. I have watched it time and time again. Fave bit when Ianto closes his eyes and then says 'he's very handsome.' You just know you would too given half a chance or is that just me? LOL
D) You are right about Clem and I hadn't considered that.
E) Agree on point 8. I thought that as well especially later as she implies she is having an affair with Frobisher as he doesn't seem the type
F) Jack's face as he puts his hands at his side to accept his fate. You tell yourself he must be back and then see the next day's trailer and know the person covered in blood is him. You wonder how the hell it must feel to be blown apart. From what I read JB wanted the kiss to be full on and it was given the time available. Ianto's face as he goes up in the lift. (quietly shudders)
I love this episode which is unusual in starting episodes I find as they tend to set things up and have to introduce new characters. The children are truely scary. I think the mixture of world wide implications with intimate moments between family, friends and lovers is brilliant.
Best not to mention Forrest Gump to me, as someone who works with adults with learning difficulties i find it insultingly stereotypical and patronising.
But yeah, Hanks has done some good films over the years. Apollo 13 was the best for me, then Big.
Oh i think that you have to take forrest gump for the endearingly charming person he is and although i can sympathise that he has mental health problems i dont think the Either tom hanks or Robert Zemeckis made an offensive film at all infact one could argue that for all the problems and strife his disabilitys cause him he actually has a great life full or rich well rounded ppl that eventualy get over predudice they may have had ie forrests leg dr for example when he decides to start running or LT dan who starts off being very offensive to both forest and bubba and in the end becomes forrest's best friend (well after jenny)
Agree about the Doctor and I did love Johnson immdeiately even though she was a baddie. So good to see a strong and ruthless woman with her hair down!
I think first time round it took a couple of episodes for her to grow on me...I think what did it was the escape scene in series 2 and her deadpan reaction to it all!:D
C) Absolutely love the scene with Ianto and his sister. I have watched it time and time again. Fave bit when Ianto closes his eyes and then says 'he's very handsome.' You just know you would too given half a chance or is that just me? LOL
I love that too, the dynamics are interesting. In one sense his sister kind of emotionally blackmailed him in to opening up to her, but at the same time, I think he wanted to tell her!
F) Jack's face as he puts his hands at his side to accept his fate. You tell yourself he must be back and then see the next day's trailer and know the person covered in blood is him. You wonder how the hell it must feel to be blown apart. From what I read JB wanted the kiss to be full on and it was given the time available. Ianto's face as he goes up in the lift. (quietly shudders)
I know, it's where jack closes his eyes right before the explosion....really awful to think about how that must feel. And then at what point does he become alive again exactly, how much of his body was intact? It's grim really! Poor Jack, and poor Ianto too.
Oh i think that you have to take forrest gump for the endearingly charming person he is and although i can sympathise that he has mental health problems i dont think the Either tom hanks or Robert Zemeckis made an offensive film at all infact one could argue that for all the problems and strife his disabilitys cause him he actually has a great life full or rich well rounded ppl that eventualy get over predudice they may have had ie forrests leg dr for example when he decides to start running or LT dan who starts off being very offensive to both forest and bubba and in the end becomes forrest's best friend (well after jenny)
Kenneth
the problem is is that is perpetuous the myth that people with ld are 'eternal children' when they are not. Believe me when I say many people with mild ld i have worked with hate the film with a passion.
the problem is is that is perpetuous the myth that people with ld are 'eternal children' when they are not. Believe me when I say many people with mild ld i have worked with hate the film with a passion.
I can see how it may in that circumstance upset some ppl and mabey they could have delt with it slightly diffrent but by the end of Gump he is no where near the same person he was in the beggining as is demonstrated by his relationship with dying jenny and then his son.
but i do accept that it could be offensive though!
the problem is is that is perpetuous the myth that people with ld are 'eternal children' when they are not. Believe me when I say many people with mild ld i have worked with hate the film with a passion.
Have to agree with Muttley here. I've worked with a lot of older children with learning difficulties of all sorts and there is a tendency to forget that they too are striving to be adults. Sometimes parents have a tendency as well to refuse to acknowledge that they get older and have adult feelings. It is a difficult area to deal with.
I wasn't a big Forest Gump fan but I loved Big.
Have to agree with Muttley here. I've worked with a lot of older children with learning difficulties of all sorts and there is a tendency to forget that they too are striving to be adults. Sometimes parents have a tendency as well to refuse to acknowledge that they get older and have adult feelings. It is a difficult area to deal with.
I wasn't a big Forest Gump fan but I loved Big.
I do like big but it hasn't dated too well like say (A wonderfull life Or Simms Version of A Christmas Carol)
The first thing that struck me second time around is how genuinely creepy the children are. First time round I was so excited I think most of the early scenes went by in a haze.
I filled up when I saw the glimpses of young Stephen. Heartbreaking.
Iantos family really are a masterstroke. You really see how much of a facade he put on and how much of a wall he built. The two halves of his life were kept completely seperate. I really do think they only just scratched the surface with his backstory and they really have missed a trick by killing him. *slaps face* pull yourself together girl. The whole speech with his sister is beautiful and groundbreaking. It points out that people are not there to be labelled, and you love who you love regardless of gender.
On first watch I was pissed with Jack when he was so dismissive of being a "couple". On second viewing, and knowing what's coming I see Jacks point. He has seen so many of his loved ones die, I really felt his sorrow and felt the burden of his immortality. The kiss is really beautifully done and the look between the two as Ianto is sent up in the lift just sums everything up.
the scene in which Rupesh shoots jack still shook me to the core as I really thought he was being set up as the new TW doctor. Such a twist for day one!
Love Frobisher. Peter capaldi is brilliant.
In hindsight I think it was much better on second viewing and I feel a little foolish for waiting so long. Although ask me again at the end of the week
I filled up when I saw the glimpses of young Stephen. Heartbreaking.
i didn't have quite that reaction, but it does add layers watching it knowing what is to come. I remember when i made that short CoE video, going through the footage to pick out the scene where Jack picks him up, and being bought up short by it. But now i just felt a sense of sadness about it all really.
Iantos family really are a masterstroke. You really see how much of a facade he put on and how much of a wall he built. The two halves of his life were kept completely separate. I really do think they only just scratched the surface with his back story and they really have missed a trick by killing him. *slaps face* pull yourself together girl. The whole speech with his sister is beautiful and groundbreaking. It points out that people are not there to be labelled, and you love who you love regardless of gender.
I think the whole point with Ianto was he compartmentalised everything. He let a little tiny crack out in that one scene but the reality is that he never would have really opened out in a meaningful way however long he had been in the series, it is what defined him as a person. That is part of the tragedy really. That his family could never really know what an extraordinary person he really was, and that those he was actually closest to could never really appreciate how amazing his family were in their own ways.
On first watch I was pissed with Jack when he was so dismissive of being a "couple". On second viewing, and knowing what's coming I see Jacks point. He has seen so many of his loved ones die, I really felt his sorrow and felt the burden of his immortality. The kiss is really beautifully done and the look between the two as Ianto is sent up in the lift just sums everything up.
It's easier to empathise with Ianto I think, because in spite of how controlled he was in other aspects of life, he was totally unable to hide his feelings towards jack, even if you go back to the early days in episodes like Cyberwoman. Jack is skilled at hiding his true feelings, and has learned to do so more so due to his experiences since becoming immortal.
It's easier to empathise with Ianto I think, because in spite of how controlled he was in other aspects of life, he was totally unable to hide his feelings towards jack, even if you go back to the early days in episodes like Cyberwoman. Jack is skilled at hiding his true feelings, and has learned to do so more so due to his experiences since becoming immortal.
Agree Jack has learned the hard way to control his feelings but I often go back to the kiss in Cyberwoman, which as you know is one of my favourite episodes, and wonder about that kiss and Jack's motives. Somewhere in there between that and the stopwatch scene things change between them.
I wish if there is a series 4 that perhaps in flashbacks Ianto could appear and we get some back story.
Still I suppose it gives those of us who like to speculate a chance to write about it.
I've had to favourite all the YT stuff etc to look at some time in the future - when I am alone. :rolleyes: Love the Womble Doctor.
We watched 'Ted' last night and I really liked that one, but Michelle says it's one of her least favourites because it's not about the supernatural. I probably liked it because it's more sci-fi. Probably won't be watching any more till tomorrow as we're watching Day 1 after the soaps at 9....will let you know the verdict.
I've finished the project (which I so worried will be a disappointment to you) except for my own contribution which I will do asap.
And I've watched Warriors, but I have nothing to add. Could have, should have been good, but it wasn't.
Glad you like Dr WHOmble
If Shell is into more supernatural stufff, why not watch the Unquiet Dead?
Evening folks - online to check the fave doctors responses and for some reason your PMs (sent today ) appear to have been lost in the electronic mail *stern stare over top of glasses*
SOME of you will have to stay in at playtime and miss DT on Graham Norton
Agree Jack has learned the hard way to control his feelings but I often go back to the kiss in Cyberwoman, which as you know is one of my favourite episodes, and wonder about that kiss and Jack's motives. Somewhere in there between that and the stopwatch scene things change between them. .
i do wonder about the evolution of their relationship in those early days. Jacks motives for finally agreeing to hire him for one thing. At what point did the "relationship" actually start. I use the term relationship loosely here. It could easily have been the case they had been sexually involved prior to that point in Cyberwoman. What were Iantos motives? Mixed at best one would imagine?
And that leads to the pretty shoddy way that Ianto is treated at that point by Jack, and reinforced by his lowly status in the team. I always find that scene where they all b*gger off and leave Ianto alone barely acknowledging his existence as being key somehow. And yes, there is a gradual change....in Countrycide he is involved in the field for reasons that are unclear, for example.
i do wonder about the evolution of their relationship in those early days. Jacks motives for finally agreeing to hire him for one thing. At what point did the "relationship" actually start. I use the term relationship loosely here. It could easily have been the case they had been sexually involved prior to that point in Cyberwoman. What were Iantos motives? Mixed at best one would imagine?
And that leads to the pretty shoddy way that Ianto is treated at that point by Jack, and reinforced by his lowly status in the team. I always find that scene where they all b*gger off and leave Ianto alone barely acknowledging his existence as being key somehow. And yes, there is a gradual change....in Countrycide he is involved in the field for reasons that are unclear, for example.
There is so much of Iantos story untold and that's partly to blame for the Janto hysteria.
When you leave so many spaces its inevitable that people are going to fill in the blanks.
There is so much of Iantos story untold and that's partly to blame for the Janto hysteria.
When you leave so many spaces its inevitable that people are going to fill in the blanks.
ah but the problem there was the writing for series 1 was quite inconstant. It's a shame RTD wasn't more involved in the writing for TW series 1 really. he understands how to explore relationships well in a limited time frame.
also there is nothing wrong with filling in the blanks and theorising as to what might have happened. It's actually quite interesting to do. The problem comes when you come to believe that your theories are the truth of what happened.
i do wonder about the evolution of their relationship in those early days. Jacks motives for finally agreeing to hire him for one thing. At what point did the "relationship" actually start. I use the term relationship loosely here. It could easily have been the case they had been sexually involved prior to that point in Cyberwoman. What were Iantos motives? Mixed at best one would imagine?
And that leads to the pretty shoddy way that Ianto is treated at that point by Jack, and reinforced by his lowly status in the team. I always find that scene where they all b*gger off and leave Ianto alone barely acknowledging his existence as being key somehow. And yes, there is a gradual change....in Countrycide he is involved in the field for reasons that are unclear, for example.
Sorry I could talk about this all night. That scene when they play basketball and leave him I find heartbreaking as it really shows how little they think about Ianto. It is clear, however, from the first episode that Jack flirts with him. I read somewhere that GDL reckoned they were at it before Cyberwoman but I don't see that at all. I do think Ianto may have had confused feelings for Jack from the Fragments moment.
In CoE I think it's poignant when Ianto agrees about hating the word couple when he so obviously doesn't.
When you think about it there is so little back story about Jack and Ianto's relationship.
I've now read all the Torchwood books and even in the last one, The Undertaker's Gift, when they should be getting near the status of their relationship in CoE it still isn't acknowledged truely that Ianto isn't just a part time s**g.
This is what made the first episode of CoE for me, that it was openly acknowledged.
PS When I have a tendency to expound on all this I have some helpful friends who remind me that they are not real!
Sorry I could talk about this all night. That scene when they play basketball and leave him I find heartbreaking as it really shows how little they think about Ianto.
it's ironic that Gwen the newbie is so easily excepted in to the group in a way that Ianto isn't. It's sad. But then, he is keeping his secret and maybe part of it is also that he doesn't want them to notice him too much.
It is clear, however, from the first episode that Jack flirts with him. I read somewhere that GDL reckoned they were at it before Cyberwoman but I don't see that at all. I do think Ianto may have had confused feelings for Jack from the Fragments moment.
I can see it both ways here. I could see a scenario in which they were involved prior to this, the attraction was there from the start. But how far it went is very open to interpretation. I think the way the relationship started made it harder to define though. They both felt the other had betrayed them in a sense in cyberwomen and in both cases i think their anger is justified. It made things very complex i would imagine, because trust is a fundamental in any relationship, even one that is largely sexual.
This is what made the first episode of CoE for me, that it was openly acknowledged.
the way i always felt about CoE was that the relationship was self evident and matter of fact. yes they still had their issues, but they were very much together. It was just in how they interacted with each other. A lot of that is to do with consistent writing. In TW series 1 and 2 some episodes you could watch as a newbie and come away with no idea they are supposed to be in a relationship together. With CoE it was in just about every look they shared, every word that was exchanged, in their reactions to things that happened to the other....it was very real and tangible in a way it never QUITE managed to constantly be before.
Comments
We didn't agree on that this summer, seems like we still won't this autumn
Anyway, I can't call a man who shoots his wife, his two kids and himself a man of courage. He was in a corner, yes, but he was a puppet who never found voice enough to say no (think of those beautifully played scenes in the Cabinet : his emotions were on his face but he never said a word, he never said no !). He was a coward, a spineless civil servant like so many were in invaded countries and Germany during WWII , he died thinking everything was lost, not even trying to reveal what was going on to the many journalists in front of his door who could have created a worldwide uproar in an instant.
Tragic, yes. Great character, absolutely. Courageous, not in my book.
So much you and I agree on
My favourites
A) The hospital scene - love Ianto's face on 'couple' and Jack not looking happy also when they pull out the hitch-hiker.
C) Absolutely love the scene with Ianto and his sister. I have watched it time and time again. Fave bit when Ianto closes his eyes and then says 'he's very handsome.' You just know you would too given half a chance or is that just me? LOL
D) You are right about Clem and I hadn't considered that.
E) Agree on point 8. I thought that as well especially later as she implies she is having an affair with Frobisher as he doesn't seem the type
F) Jack's face as he puts his hands at his side to accept his fate. You tell yourself he must be back and then see the next day's trailer and know the person covered in blood is him. You wonder how the hell it must feel to be blown apart. From what I read JB wanted the kiss to be full on and it was given the time available. Ianto's face as he goes up in the lift. (quietly shudders)
I love this episode which is unusual in starting episodes I find as they tend to set things up and have to introduce new characters. The children are truely scary. I think the mixture of world wide implications with intimate moments between family, friends and lovers is brilliant.
I'll save the Frobisher debate for day 5 though!:D
Oh i think that you have to take forrest gump for the endearingly charming person he is and although i can sympathise that he has mental health problems i dont think the Either tom hanks or Robert Zemeckis made an offensive film at all infact one could argue that for all the problems and strife his disabilitys cause him he actually has a great life full or rich well rounded ppl that eventualy get over predudice they may have had ie forrests leg dr for example when he decides to start running or LT dan who starts off being very offensive to both forest and bubba and in the end becomes forrest's best friend (well after jenny)
Kenneth
I think first time round it took a couple of episodes for her to grow on me...I think what did it was the escape scene in series 2 and her deadpan reaction to it all!:D
I love that too, the dynamics are interesting. In one sense his sister kind of emotionally blackmailed him in to opening up to her, but at the same time, I think he wanted to tell her!
I know, it's where jack closes his eyes right before the explosion....really awful to think about how that must feel. And then at what point does he become alive again exactly, how much of his body was intact? It's grim really! Poor Jack, and poor Ianto too.
the problem is is that is perpetuous the myth that people with ld are 'eternal children' when they are not. Believe me when I say many people with mild ld i have worked with hate the film with a passion.
I can see how it may in that circumstance upset some ppl and mabey they could have delt with it slightly diffrent but by the end of Gump he is no where near the same person he was in the beggining as is demonstrated by his relationship with dying jenny and then his son.
but i do accept that it could be offensive though!
Kenneth
Have to agree with Muttley here. I've worked with a lot of older children with learning difficulties of all sorts and there is a tendency to forget that they too are striving to be adults. Sometimes parents have a tendency as well to refuse to acknowledge that they get older and have adult feelings. It is a difficult area to deal with.
I wasn't a big Forest Gump fan but I loved Big.
I do like big but it hasn't dated too well like say (A wonderfull life Or Simms Version of A Christmas Carol)
Kenneth
The first thing that struck me second time around is how genuinely creepy the children are. First time round I was so excited I think most of the early scenes went by in a haze.
I filled up when I saw the glimpses of young Stephen. Heartbreaking.
Iantos family really are a masterstroke. You really see how much of a facade he put on and how much of a wall he built. The two halves of his life were kept completely seperate. I really do think they only just scratched the surface with his backstory and they really have missed a trick by killing him. *slaps face* pull yourself together girl. The whole speech with his sister is beautiful and groundbreaking. It points out that people are not there to be labelled, and you love who you love regardless of gender.
On first watch I was pissed with Jack when he was so dismissive of being a "couple". On second viewing, and knowing what's coming I see Jacks point. He has seen so many of his loved ones die, I really felt his sorrow and felt the burden of his immortality. The kiss is really beautifully done and the look between the two as Ianto is sent up in the lift just sums everything up.
the scene in which Rupesh shoots jack still shook me to the core as I really thought he was being set up as the new TW doctor. Such a twist for day one!
Love Frobisher. Peter capaldi is brilliant.
In hindsight I think it was much better on second viewing and I feel a little foolish for waiting so long. Although ask me again at the end of the week
i didn't have quite that reaction, but it does add layers watching it knowing what is to come. I remember when i made that short CoE video, going through the footage to pick out the scene where Jack picks him up, and being bought up short by it. But now i just felt a sense of sadness about it all really.
I think the whole point with Ianto was he compartmentalised everything. He let a little tiny crack out in that one scene but the reality is that he never would have really opened out in a meaningful way however long he had been in the series, it is what defined him as a person. That is part of the tragedy really. That his family could never really know what an extraordinary person he really was, and that those he was actually closest to could never really appreciate how amazing his family were in their own ways.
It's easier to empathise with Ianto I think, because in spite of how controlled he was in other aspects of life, he was totally unable to hide his feelings towards jack, even if you go back to the early days in episodes like Cyberwoman. Jack is skilled at hiding his true feelings, and has learned to do so more so due to his experiences since becoming immortal.
Agree Jack has learned the hard way to control his feelings but I often go back to the kiss in Cyberwoman, which as you know is one of my favourite episodes, and wonder about that kiss and Jack's motives. Somewhere in there between that and the stopwatch scene things change between them.
I wish if there is a series 4 that perhaps in flashbacks Ianto could appear and we get some back story.
Still I suppose it gives those of us who like to speculate a chance to write about it.
Glad you like Dr WHOmble
If Shell is into more supernatural stufff, why not watch the Unquiet Dead?
Evening folks - online to check the fave doctors responses and for some reason your PMs (sent today ) appear to have been lost in the electronic mail *stern stare over top of glasses*
SOME of you will have to stay in at playtime and miss DT on Graham Norton
And YAY! for the project
i do wonder about the evolution of their relationship in those early days. Jacks motives for finally agreeing to hire him for one thing. At what point did the "relationship" actually start. I use the term relationship loosely here. It could easily have been the case they had been sexually involved prior to that point in Cyberwoman. What were Iantos motives? Mixed at best one would imagine?
And that leads to the pretty shoddy way that Ianto is treated at that point by Jack, and reinforced by his lowly status in the team. I always find that scene where they all b*gger off and leave Ianto alone barely acknowledging his existence as being key somehow. And yes, there is a gradual change....in Countrycide he is involved in the field for reasons that are unclear, for example.
There is so much of Iantos story untold and that's partly to blame for the Janto hysteria.
When you leave so many spaces its inevitable that people are going to fill in the blanks.
ah but the problem there was the writing for series 1 was quite inconstant. It's a shame RTD wasn't more involved in the writing for TW series 1 really. he understands how to explore relationships well in a limited time frame.
also there is nothing wrong with filling in the blanks and theorising as to what might have happened. It's actually quite interesting to do. The problem comes when you come to believe that your theories are the truth of what happened.
Sorry I could talk about this all night. That scene when they play basketball and leave him I find heartbreaking as it really shows how little they think about Ianto. It is clear, however, from the first episode that Jack flirts with him. I read somewhere that GDL reckoned they were at it before Cyberwoman but I don't see that at all. I do think Ianto may have had confused feelings for Jack from the Fragments moment.
In CoE I think it's poignant when Ianto agrees about hating the word couple when he so obviously doesn't.
When you think about it there is so little back story about Jack and Ianto's relationship.
I've now read all the Torchwood books and even in the last one, The Undertaker's Gift, when they should be getting near the status of their relationship in CoE it still isn't acknowledged truely that Ianto isn't just a part time s**g.
This is what made the first episode of CoE for me, that it was openly acknowledged.
PS When I have a tendency to expound on all this I have some helpful friends who remind me that they are not real!
it's ironic that Gwen the newbie is so easily excepted in to the group in a way that Ianto isn't. It's sad. But then, he is keeping his secret and maybe part of it is also that he doesn't want them to notice him too much.
I can see it both ways here. I could see a scenario in which they were involved prior to this, the attraction was there from the start. But how far it went is very open to interpretation. I think the way the relationship started made it harder to define though. They both felt the other had betrayed them in a sense in cyberwomen and in both cases i think their anger is justified. It made things very complex i would imagine, because trust is a fundamental in any relationship, even one that is largely sexual.
the way i always felt about CoE was that the relationship was self evident and matter of fact. yes they still had their issues, but they were very much together. It was just in how they interacted with each other. A lot of that is to do with consistent writing. In TW series 1 and 2 some episodes you could watch as a newbie and come away with no idea they are supposed to be in a relationship together. With CoE it was in just about every look they shared, every word that was exchanged, in their reactions to things that happened to the other....it was very real and tangible in a way it never QUITE managed to constantly be before.
you'll just have to watch two episodes tomorrow...
Oh but in a funny way! I did laugh!!!
Love how DT is calling himself a pathetic fanboy!!!
Great hair by the way! Have I mentioned that?????