Expressing any understanding for what may have led those boys to murder is very unpopular. Likewise is any suggestion that Denise Fergus is anything other than rational in her demands to be given details of this current state of affairs.
I have already been told I lack compassion on this thread, and that I am mean spirited and get enjoyment from Denise Fergus's dilemma.
People get far too over emotional, even when not at all connected to the original situation.
Where here, on DS?
It's here on DS that there is so much support for them and vilification of Denise Fergus.
Check back through the threads.
Even look at the OP of this thread. Have there been any threads started with an inflamatory OP that suggests Venables should be hung?
So why and try to suggest that there is a conspiracy going on and that you are a beleagured minority?
You are freely expressing your views, it's just that other people are disagreeing.
Personally, my heart breaks for Denise Fergus and seeing her pitiful face on TV brings back the memories of the horrible crime more vividly than any old photograph of the murderers.
However, the law is all we have and, I'm sorry, but she has no more right to know details of the allegations than anyone else.
If she were to find out, a case came to court and she attended, all the money spent on a new identity would have been a waste. Denise sitting in the public gallery would be all it took.
Venables has yet to be charged, and my biggest fear is that all the present furore will make him having a fair trial impossible. If that were the case he would be released and so we'd never know if he was guilty or not.
Personally, my heart breaks for Denise Fergus and seeing her pitiful face on TV brings back the memories of the horrible crime more vividly than any old photograph of the murderers.
However, the law is all we have and, I'm sorry, but she has no more right to know details of the allegations than anyone else.
If she were to find out, a case came to court and she attended, all the money spent on a new identity would have been a waste. Denise sitting in the public gallery would be all it took.
Venables has yet to be charged, and my biggest fear is that all the present furore will make him having a fair trial impossible. If that were the case he would be released and so we'd never know if he was guilty or not.
Do you really think a fair trial is possible?
Or are we going to pretend that it's been fair.
The thing I don't get is that the defence for the two at the time was their background as it is in many cases.
But if we now have a trial that doesn't expose the background of Venebles, that's ok and fair?
It's like there is a process being tied in knots to try and fix a problem that doesn't have a solution.
And rather than admit that this is impossible, people are paying lip service to a system that has actually broken down in this instance.
you can still see the pain in Denises face.. and for anyone who perhaps thinks that you move on from your child dying, you dont.. I have a good friends whos son drowned age 7 40 years ago, and she hid herself away at his birthday a few weeks ago and didnt want to talk to anyone. this is how a child dying affects parents..
It's here on DS that there is so much support for them and vilification of Denise Fergus.
Check back through the threads.
Even look at the OP of this thread. Have there been any threads started with an inflamatory OP that suggests Venables should be hung?
So why and try to suggest that there is a conspiracy going on and that you are a beleagured minority?
You are freely expressing your views, it's just that other people are disagreeing.
I cannot see where on this thread that anyone has 'supported' the 2 offenders, nor where anyone has 'vilified' Denise Fergus.
But I can see where people have understood as much as they are able, the pain and trauma that that poor mother has gone through, but they are not in agreement with her current method of action. That is not vilification.
Trying to understand what led 2 10 yr old boys to murder, and expressing concern that justice is seen to be done without prejudice, in the current case of Venables, does not appear to me to be 'supporting' them!
I don't understand why it is that people who refuse to accept that there were background elements which contributed to the psychological make-up of these two boys will also insist that others who do accept it are "justifying" what they did.
Nor do I understand it. Neither do I understand why some of those who are quick to show sympathy and anger of behalf of other children who are horribly abused fail to see any kind of link to this case. Puzzling and very, very depressing.
I don't think she has any right to know until after the new case has been heard. If too much knowledge leaks into the public domain it might prevent any new victim getting justice.
It is impossible to lock up a child for life. Damaged child criminals have to be given a chance to heal and an opportunity to start afresh. If Venables has offended again he needs a fair trial and if found guilty will lose his liberty accordingly.
If someone torcherd and murdered my baby boy in cold blood, I would hound them to the end of days. They don't deserve new lifes, they don't deserve to rest. They deserve to live in constant fear the way that little boy was in fear as they ripped apart his little body.
Take away your feelings of the mother but imagine for one moment seeing again the face of the person who mutilated your baby all over the news, press etc. It would drive you mad. Maybe she doesn't have the right to know why he has been arrested but people shouldn't deny her the right to feel that way because you would too.:(
We as a society have become so used to perverse killings over the years we are losing a part of our ability to feel for other people.:(
We as a society have become so used to perverse killings over the years we are losing a part of our ability to feel for other people.:(
Is that actually a true statement of our society or a statement of how it feels to you? I don't think anything has changed in our attitude to very rare cases like this in decades.
If someone torcherd and murdered my baby boy in cold blood, I would hound them to the end of days. They don't deserve new lifes, they don't deserve to rest. They deserve to live in constant fear the way that little boy was in fear as they ripped apart his little body.
Take away your feelings of the mother but imagine for one moment seeing again the face of the person who mutilated your baby all over the news, press etc. It would drive you mad. Maybe she doesn't have the right to know why he has been arrested but people shouldn't deny her the right to feel that way because you would too.:(
We as a society have become so used to perverse killings over the years we are losing a part of our ability to feel for other people.:(
Nor do I understand it. Neither do I understand why some of those who are quick to show sympathy and anger of behalf of other children who are horribly abused fail to see any kind of link to this case. Puzzling and very, very depressing.
For example : (now this will get me hung, drawn and quartered!)
Baby P.
What an absolute horrendous short life he had.
But imagine had he survived to his teenage years, with another 10 yrs of that abuse behind him!
What sort of effect would that have had on his psyche. Would he have been a 'normal' well adjusted teenager, or would he have ended up just as 'screwed up' as the adults that had 'brought' him up, and have gone on to perpetuate the cycle.????
Its hard to reconcile those cute pictures of him with blond hair and blue eyes, with him possibly becoming a right little scum bag like his step father.
If someone torcherd and murdered my baby boy in cold blood, I would hound them to the end of days. They don't deserve new lifes, they don't deserve to rest. They deserve to live in constant fear the way that little boy was in fear as they ripped apart his little body.
Take away your feelings of the mother but imagine for one moment seeing again the face of the person who mutilated your baby all over the news, press etc. It would drive you mad. Maybe she doesn't have the right to know why he has been arrested but people shouldn't deny her the right to feel that way because you would too.:(
We as a society have become so used to perverse killings over the years we are losing a part of our ability to feel for other people.:(
Put yourself in the place of the ten year old boy committing the crime of killing a 2 yr old boy. Look at your own 10 yr old children and wonder how you would feel if it were them who killed a 2 yr old.
If someone torcherd and murdered my baby boy in cold blood, I would hound them to the end of days. They don't deserve new lifes, they don't deserve to rest. They deserve to live in constant fear the way that little boy was in fear as they ripped apart his little body.
Take away your feelings of the mother but imagine for one moment seeing again the face of the person who mutilated your baby all over the news, press etc. It would drive you mad. Maybe she doesn't have the right to know why he has been arrested but people shouldn't deny her the right to feel that way because you would too.:(
We as a society have become so used to perverse killings over the years we are losing a part of our ability to feel for other people.:(
Sorry if I repeat anything anyone else has said I just don't have time to read the whole thread but my own view on this is No, Denise Fergus does not have the right to be told the details of what has happened.
It was dreadful what happened to little James back then. I'm still as horrified about it now as I was back when it happened and always will be. The culprits were caught and sentence was carried out. I personally don't think they should ever have released them but they did, so be it.
Denise wants the probation officer in charge of Venables sacked. Why? They done their job. He was watched and when he crossed the line he was immediately put back behind bars.
She wants to know all the details because she feels she has a right to know. Why? Whatever crime he's committed was not against her or her family so it's none of her business.
She wants his identity released. Why? So she can have her revenge by inciting vigilantism against him.
I understand how she feels, I really do and I'm not saying I blame her but for her own sake and her own self preservation, she has to move on. That may sound callous but I really don't mean it that way. Venables will be dealt with for whatever he has done but nothing will ever change whats already happened in the past. The worst thing that could happen now is for the public and the press to keep on and on speculating and accusing because he won't get a fair trial, he'll be aquitted, given another new identity and be free. Everyone needs to calm down and let justice run it's course. Let the courts decide on his fate and maybe he'll end up behind bars for the rest of his days, instead of walking our streets where no one knows who he is or where he is.
Oh my god, I'm totally shocked at the response to this thread.
Jesus, no parent wants to outlive their child, especially in such horrific circumstances.
I can only guess you and other ignorant posters are not parents. :mad:
Im a parent of 4, and certainly no ignorant. I do however try to seperate the boy from t e adult he is now and wonder how the hell a boy ever got to the stage where he is capable of killing a younger boy. Jamie isn't coming back, I understand the anger and hate directed towards him, but he too was a child.
If someone torcherd and murdered my baby boy in cold blood, I would hound them to the end of days. They don't deserve new lifes, they don't deserve to rest. They deserve to live in constant fear the way that little boy was in fear as they ripped apart his little body.
Take away your feelings of the mother but imagine for one moment seeing again the face of the person who mutilated your baby all over the news, press etc. It would drive you mad. Maybe she doesn't have the right to know why he has been arrested but people shouldn't deny her the right to feel that way because you would too.:(
We as a society have become so used to perverse killings over the years we are losing a part of our ability to feel for other people.:(
No - as a mother my heart bleeds for Denise Fergus and to what her little boy was subjected. But I am also appalled at the fact that the abuse that any child suffers willl be negated and withdrawn the second they perpetrate any wrongdoing on another person.
Abuse is abuse is abuse and whilst we play with fire when we "abuse" interpretations of abuse (sorry for how that reads ) , part of the reason why child abuse is such a problem is that fear of being labelled an abuser or busybody is often what prevents individual people from expressing concern or care over other people's children when they are actually being abused in their own home - where they ought to be safe.
You can never live down something like this. It's not something you can switch off.
It will be with her for the rest of her life, knowing full well in detail what these monsters did to her child. And knowing full well that the state is protecting them.
II don't think she should give this up. However she should lay low until this new case is dealt with then take it from there. Because she is allowing herself get involved in this media circus that could jeopardise this new case which could see this animal walk free and if there is a new victim could leave them without justice.
It is not related to the original crime. It may be related to the original sentence.
The mother of Bulger has suffered greviously - no one is denying that.
But by parading herself in the media spotlight is she really helping herself? A closed door to the press and a letter to the PM would get her the same result, no politician would let a letter like that go unanswered and she would get the same result as she is getting now without the intrusion into her private life by the media.
I feel very sorry for her - once again she has to endure reliving what Venables and Thomson did to her child and her children are having to endure questions about the death of their brother yet again. Her private life HAS been invaded - every newspaper in the land has been featuring pictures of her dead child for days and reiterating what happened to James.
She has asked some questions that I would like to have answered. How diligent or lax were those involved in the supervision of Venables? Was this his first breach of his licence conditions? Has anyone been put at risk during his time in the community?
How much is the political response shielding people who have failed in their duty of close supervison?
Comments
You clearly couldn't understand what I wrote...
Where here, on DS?
It's here on DS that there is so much support for them and vilification of Denise Fergus.
Check back through the threads.
Even look at the OP of this thread. Have there been any threads started with an inflamatory OP that suggests Venables should be hung?
So why and try to suggest that there is a conspiracy going on and that you are a beleagured minority?
You are freely expressing your views, it's just that other people are disagreeing.
However, the law is all we have and, I'm sorry, but she has no more right to know details of the allegations than anyone else.
If she were to find out, a case came to court and she attended, all the money spent on a new identity would have been a waste. Denise sitting in the public gallery would be all it took.
Venables has yet to be charged, and my biggest fear is that all the present furore will make him having a fair trial impossible. If that were the case he would be released and so we'd never know if he was guilty or not.
Do you really think a fair trial is possible?
Or are we going to pretend that it's been fair.
The thing I don't get is that the defence for the two at the time was their background as it is in many cases.
But if we now have a trial that doesn't expose the background of Venebles, that's ok and fair?
It's like there is a process being tied in knots to try and fix a problem that doesn't have a solution.
And rather than admit that this is impossible, people are paying lip service to a system that has actually broken down in this instance.
I cannot see where on this thread that anyone has 'supported' the 2 offenders, nor where anyone has 'vilified' Denise Fergus.
But I can see where people have understood as much as they are able, the pain and trauma that that poor mother has gone through, but they are not in agreement with her current method of action. That is not vilification.
Trying to understand what led 2 10 yr old boys to murder, and expressing concern that justice is seen to be done without prejudice, in the current case of Venables, does not appear to me to be 'supporting' them!
Will find a link - need to cook!
It is impossible to lock up a child for life. Damaged child criminals have to be given a chance to heal and an opportunity to start afresh. If Venables has offended again he needs a fair trial and if found guilty will lose his liberty accordingly.
Take away your feelings of the mother but imagine for one moment seeing again the face of the person who mutilated your baby all over the news, press etc. It would drive you mad. Maybe she doesn't have the right to know why he has been arrested but people shouldn't deny her the right to feel that way because you would too.:(
We as a society have become so used to perverse killings over the years we are losing a part of our ability to feel for other people.:(
Is that actually a true statement of our society or a statement of how it feels to you? I don't think anything has changed in our attitude to very rare cases like this in decades.
Very well put.
No, I dont think she does.
For example : (now this will get me hung, drawn and quartered!)
Baby P.
What an absolute horrendous short life he had.
But imagine had he survived to his teenage years, with another 10 yrs of that abuse behind him!
What sort of effect would that have had on his psyche. Would he have been a 'normal' well adjusted teenager, or would he have ended up just as 'screwed up' as the adults that had 'brought' him up, and have gone on to perpetuate the cycle.????
Its hard to reconcile those cute pictures of him with blond hair and blue eyes, with him possibly becoming a right little scum bag like his step father.
Its worth a thought!
Put yourself in the place of the ten year old boy committing the crime of killing a 2 yr old boy. Look at your own 10 yr old children and wonder how you would feel if it were them who killed a 2 yr old.
There is no peace here for any of them.
Heartless! Would say more but in fear of the padlock! :mad:
totally agree
It was dreadful what happened to little James back then. I'm still as horrified about it now as I was back when it happened and always will be. The culprits were caught and sentence was carried out. I personally don't think they should ever have released them but they did, so be it.
Denise wants the probation officer in charge of Venables sacked. Why? They done their job. He was watched and when he crossed the line he was immediately put back behind bars.
She wants to know all the details because she feels she has a right to know. Why? Whatever crime he's committed was not against her or her family so it's none of her business.
She wants his identity released. Why? So she can have her revenge by inciting vigilantism against him.
I understand how she feels, I really do and I'm not saying I blame her but for her own sake and her own self preservation, she has to move on. That may sound callous but I really don't mean it that way. Venables will be dealt with for whatever he has done but nothing will ever change whats already happened in the past. The worst thing that could happen now is for the public and the press to keep on and on speculating and accusing because he won't get a fair trial, he'll be aquitted, given another new identity and be free. Everyone needs to calm down and let justice run it's course. Let the courts decide on his fate and maybe he'll end up behind bars for the rest of his days, instead of walking our streets where no one knows who he is or where he is.
Oh my god, I'm totally shocked at the response to this thread.
Jesus, no parent wants to outlive their child, especially in such horrific circumstances.
I can only guess you and other ignorant posters are not parents. :mad:
Im a parent of 4, and certainly no ignorant. I do however try to seperate the boy from t e adult he is now and wonder how the hell a boy ever got to the stage where he is capable of killing a younger boy. Jamie isn't coming back, I understand the anger and hate directed towards him, but he too was a child.
No - as a mother my heart bleeds for Denise Fergus and to what her little boy was subjected. But I am also appalled at the fact that the abuse that any child suffers willl be negated and withdrawn the second they perpetrate any wrongdoing on another person.
Abuse is abuse is abuse and whilst we play with fire when we "abuse" interpretations of abuse (sorry for how that reads
Harsh, even by my standards.
You can never live down something like this. It's not something you can switch off.
It will be with her for the rest of her life, knowing full well in detail what these monsters did to her child. And knowing full well that the state is protecting them.
II don't think she should give this up. However she should lay low until this new case is dealt with then take it from there. Because she is allowing herself get involved in this media circus that could jeopardise this new case which could see this animal walk free and if there is a new victim could leave them without justice.
I feel very sorry for her - once again she has to endure reliving what Venables and Thomson did to her child and her children are having to endure questions about the death of their brother yet again. Her private life HAS been invaded - every newspaper in the land has been featuring pictures of her dead child for days and reiterating what happened to James.
She has asked some questions that I would like to have answered. How diligent or lax were those involved in the supervision of Venables? Was this his first breach of his licence conditions? Has anyone been put at risk during his time in the community?
How much is the political response shielding people who have failed in their duty of close supervison?