Of course its all about opinions rather than facts but i believe Matts first series was on such a higher level to Davids in both the delivery of the character and quality of the scripts. I think its generally excepted that series 2 is the least popular of NuWho.
Well, by same maybe, but that's not being "generally excepted". There are enough posts on this thread to disprove that.
Erm, Eccleston had 13 episodes. And why should it be assumed that no-one missed Eccleston's series but a significant number wouldn't have seen Tom Baker?
It really doesn't take a genius to figure out I meant series! There's no need to be wilfully obtuse about it.
As for that other point - predominantly, the casual viewers for Doctor Who are younger families. You'll always get the fans tuning in, but the casual viewers' age stays the same. Therefore, the larger share of the audience would be the younger families, and will have been much more likely to catch Ecclestone's series than Baker's.
I hope I've helped alleviate your confusion somewhat...
The Girl In The Fireplace - for me, this episode was only as good as you could believe the Doctor's attaction to Madame du Pompadour. And I couldn't. Hence, dreadful....1/10
Why was that out of curiosity? Lack of chemistry? Or didn't you believe the Doctor could fall for Louis XV courtesan?
After all David and Sophia were dating. I thought you could practically see the hormones
The Girl In The Fireplace - for me, this episode was only as good as you could believe the Doctor's attaction to Madame du Pompadour. And I couldn't. Hence, dreadful....1/10
Regards,
Cypher
But I assume you found the attraction between Rory and Amy believable from the beginning? Because there was a hell of a lot more passion dispalyed between the Dr and Madame de Pompadour than those two
Love & Monsters - a genuine attempt to do something different with the show - I found it well-acted, superbly characterised, moving, witty and it had something to say. Fans may hate it, but it's a 10/10 from me.
One of my earliest posts here was to say I liked this one and hadn't realised it was a byword for awful. (I thought the monster nightmarish but not perhaps in the same way Tony might have!) I don't need lots of episodes like this, though. I like Doctor Who to mostly be like, well, traditional Doctor Who (whatever that means), but when they step outside the usual framework and do it as well as this, I'm happy. If others press their "Forget" buttons I quite understand.
Series 2 vs 5: Both had their ups and downs in terms of episode quality, 5 having more ups than 2. MS' nailing of the character was immediately compelling (getting there quicker than I remember DT doing?) and I enjoyed Doctor/Amy more than series 2 Doctor/Rose. Both series did a good job of bonding the audience to new Doctors and guaranteeing a lot of people looking forward to next year. As I understand it DT has a natural advantage over MS in physical scrumptiousness for a section of the audience, so well done MS for having the acting skill to overcome whatever hideous deformity it is that blights him. Well done both teams, really - it's all pretty good fun.
Having said that, I'm not keen on the overall direction RTD/DT took the Doctor character and feel much more comfortable with this series 5 style. I'm crossing fingers for a similar approach next year. (Wouldn't mind if they try a little harder to not have "magic" resolutions though.)
But I assume you found the attraction between Rory and Amy believable from the beginning? Because there was a hell of a lot more passion dispalyed between the Dr and Madame de Pompadour than those two
Which was part of the problem: I personally found it totally unbelievable that the Doctor could display any such feelings for any human-because it makes no sense! He's an alien! The relationship between Amy and rory was more believable because it was a case of two humans acting as humans often do to each other. The Girl in the Fireplace was a lot less irritating than all the Doctor/Rose stuff, admittedly-but only if you overlooked the somewhat disturbing inference of the Doctor having feelings for the girl. The age and species difference would make any such notion laughable if you apply any kind of logic to the situation.
Which was part of the problem: I personally found it totally unbelievable that the Doctor could display any such feelings for any human-because it makes no sense! He's an alien! The relationship between Amy and rory was more believable because it was a case of two humans acting as humans often do to each other. The Girl in the Fireplace was a lot less irritating than all the Doctor/Rose stuff, admittedly-but only if you overlooked the somewhat disturbing inference of the Doctor having feelings for the girl. The age and species difference would make any such notion laughable if you apply any kind of logic to the situation.
But he's half human, so where's the problem with the species! My main gripe with The Girl in the Fireplace was that it didn't fit in with Series 2, he had the Rose thing going so it seemed a bit odd for him to be falling for someone else and Rose not seeming too bothered. It would have been better in Series 3 or 4.
But he's half human, so where's the problem with the species! My main gripe with The Girl in the Fireplace was that it didn't fit in with Series 2, he had the Rose thing going so it seemed a bit odd for him to be falling for someone else and Rose not seeming too bothered. It would have been better in Series 3 or 4.
I don't think he is half-human is he? Wasn't taht just made up for the TV Movie and generally discarded in Dr Who folklore, even though that episode is considered canon?
Any way - why shouldn't he fall in love with a human? To say that makes no sense, as some have, seems in itself nonsensical, as to all outward intents and purposes, we are exactly the same. Throughout the classic series, many characters and companions have fallen for people of a different species (leela is the first that comes to mind, but right at the beginning we had Susan and David).Of course, if any idiot producer in the future decides to end the series by casting a female Doctor, then it makes the whole Doctor / romance (indeed Time Lord / romance) sick, twisted and vile(!) (sorry, maybe that does kind of sound a little homophobic....!)
But he's half human, so where's the problem with the species! My main gripe with The Girl in the Fireplace was that it didn't fit in with Series 2, he had the Rose thing going so it seemed a bit odd for him to be falling for someone else and Rose not seeming too bothered. It would have been better in Series 3 or 4.
PS - I do agree that in the context of the whole series, it was a little odd that the Dr suddenly ignored the "love of his life" for someone he'd only just met!
I don't think he is half-human is he? Wasn't taht just made up for the TV Movie and generally discarded in Dr Who folklore, even though that episode is considered canon?
Not "discarded", just never mentioned. It was retconned in the novels - the Doctor's timeline and DNA were fiddled with by Faction Paradox.
Of course, if any idiot producer in the future decides to end the series by casting a female Doctor, then it makes the whole Doctor / romance (indeed Time Lord / romance) sick, twisted and vile(!) (sorry, maybe that does kind of sound a little homophobic....!)
I think a female Doctor would be fantastic and the producer a genius but I don't know what you mean?
Well, imo, someone sophisticated with the class, style and education of a Reinette Poisson was a much better fit to the Doctor than some rather simple shop girl - plus part of the attraction was clearly the ego-boost of France's inofficial "First Lady" (the Queen didn't really count) fancying the Doctor. And the Doctor is somewhat vain, after all ....
So, I found that part way more believable than the Doctor fancying someone as unsophisticated as Rose
So, everyone looks at things differently, don't they?
Not "discarded", just never mentioned. It was retconned in the novels - the Doctor's timeline and DNA were fiddled with by Faction Paradox.
Also, in series 5 episode Cold Blood, as the Doctor is about to be decontaminated he yells at the Silurian scientist to stop, categorically stating that he is not human.
Therefore the Half Human nonsense has been eradicated, finally...
The Girl in the Fireplace was the first DT episode I saw and it was that that got me hooked on New Who (I stopped watching the first series - didn't like the stories or CE as the Doctor).
Part of why I liked it was the to me absolutely believable relationship which developed between the Doctor and Mme de Pompadour.(I didn't know the actors were dating in real life, but I'm not surprised). It certainly didn't seem to me that Rose wasn't bothered by it, as I recall she seemed to be at a loss to know how to deal with it, but clearly upset.
It has remained one of my favourite episodes in one of my favourite series.
Series 5, though it has had several excellent episodes, and much as I love Matt's Doctor hasn't had the same impact for me.
Series 5, though it has had several excellent episodes, and much as I love Matt's Doctor hasn't had the same impact for me.
I understand your point entirely, and I loved The Girl in the Fireplace. My favourite episode of Series 2, by a country mile. It was beautiful.
May I ask what you thought of Vincent and the Doctor? Because this episode moved me in a way no other episode has. It was like a drama, not a bit of lighthearted fun, as usual.
...then it makes the whole Doctor / romance (indeed Time Lord / romance) sick, twisted and vile(!) (sorry, maybe that does kind of sound a little homophobic....!)
Well, I suppose finding something "sick, twisted and vile" could well indicate a phobia to whatever it is. But no need to apologise if that's the way you feel. They are harsh words to use when you yourself raised the subject. Not sure why you felt the need to air it.
I understand your point entirely, and I loved The Girl in the Fireplace. My favourite episode of Series 2, by a country mile. It was beautiful.
May I ask what you thought of Vincent and the Doctor? Because this episode moved me in a way no other episode has. It was like a drama, not a bit of lighthearted fun, as usual.
I agree, one of the most beautiful programmes I've ever seen on TV ever.
Visually stunning, superbly acted and as you say, very moving.
The only problem with it is that every time I think of it I start crying....again. I'm doing it now (and I don't cry easily).
I agree, one of the most beautiful programmes I've ever seen on TV ever.
Visually stunning, superbly acted and as you say, very moving.
The only problem with it is that every time I think of it I start crying....again. I'm doing it now (and I don't cry easily).
I loved Vincent and the Doctor as a piece of TV drama. It was stunning and gets 10/10 from me every single time. Should win bucketful of awards and will go down in folklore as one of the best episodes ever (yes I said it). It didn't treat the viewers as idiots and left everything open to interpretation (such as the fact Vincent could see the Krayfayis, while the others couldn't. The episode clearly in, my view, suggests that he can do this because of how creative and how he can see things others can't - the scene where he, the Doctor and Amy observe the skies as evidence. However most people like it drawn in crayon, as usual, so criticise it as a continuity error :mad:)
It is definately better than The Girl in the Fireplace (in my opinion) and anything Series 2 or the rest of 5 had to offer.
I understand your point entirely, and I loved The Girl in the Fireplace. My favourite episode of Series 2, by a country mile. It was beautiful.
May I ask what you thought of Vincent and the Doctor? Because this episode moved me in a way no other episode has. It was like a drama, not a bit of lighthearted fun, as usual.
Well I personally love Girl in the Fireplace (despite it's obvious flaw with the Rose situation) yet hate Vincent and the Doctor. Nothing happened for most of the episode apart from they went for a walk in the country and faced one of the worst realized monsters in Doctor Who history, then an over melodramatic ending with that pop song cynically trying to get at viewers' emotions. And worst of all there was the very real possibility that the Doctor's actions contributed to Vincent's suicide. I don't call that entertainment.
Well I personally love Girl in the Fireplace (despite it's obvious flaw with the Rose situation) yet hate Vincent and the Doctor. Nothing happened for most of the episode apart from they went for a walk in the country and faced one of the worst realized monsters in Doctor Who history, then an over melodramatic ending with that pop song cynically trying to get at viewers' emotions. And worst of all there was the very real possibility that the Doctor's actions contributed to Vincent's suicide. I don't call that entertainment.
The Doctor's "Good things, bad things" speech amicably sums up your point. He clearly states that Vincent had too many problems to be solved so easily and that he (Vincent) will forever be grateful to the Doctor and Amy for providing some good things to his overwhelming bad things.
I take it you want all action Who episodes. The whole point of VATD wasn't too have all action, fighting off the baddies drama. It was about exploring the deeper, emotional sides of one of history's greatest characters and also exploring mental illness and how, often, it is unavoidable. It was a very deep, moving episode, and while I respect your view, I believe if you attempted to look past the fact there isn't much action and approach it with a wider context, you will realise how beautiful the episode is.
I don't think he is half-human is he? Wasn't taht just made up for the TV Movie and generally discarded in Dr Who folklore, even though that episode is considered canon?
Discarded by who? Only by some fans. The programme makers have yet to address it, really.
Any way - why shouldn't he fall in love with a human? To say that makes no sense, as some have, seems in itself nonsensical, as to all outward intents and purposes, we are exactly the same.
Yes, to all outward appearances, which is probably why some people who haven't really thought through the whole 'alien' thing happily accept this nonsense. But in all other respects, humans and Time Lords are not the same, not even remotely-we don't live for several centuries and have a completely alien ability to change our entire bodies, for a start. It could not work.
Throughout the classic series, many characters and companions have fallen for people of a different species (leela is the first that comes to mind, but right at the beginning we had Susan and David).
It is never stated that Susan or Andred are Time Lords, only that they are Gallifreyan.
Of course, if any idiot producer in the future decides to end the series by casting a female Doctor, then it makes the whole Doctor / romance (indeed Time Lord / romance) sick, twisted and vile(!)
I loved Vincent and the Doctor as a piece of TV drama. It was stunning and gets 10/10 from me every single time. Should win bucketful of awards and will go down in folklore as one of the best episodes ever (yes I said it). It didn't treat the viewers as idiots and left everything open to interpretation (such as the fact Vincent could see the Krayfayis, while the others couldn't. The episode clearly in, my view, suggests that he can do this because of how creative and how he can see things others can't - the scene where he, the Doctor and Amy observe the skies as evidence. However most people like it drawn in crayon, as usual, so criticise it as a continuity error :mad:)
Agree with every word. TV needs to cause the viewer to think a bit once in awhile.
The Doctor's "Good things, bad things" speech amicably sums up your point. He clearly states that Vincent had too many problems to be solved so easily and that he (Vincent) will forever be grateful to the Doctor and Amy for providing some good things to his overwhelming bad things.
I take it you want all action Who episodes. The whole point of VATD wasn't too have all action, fighting off the baddies drama. It was about exploring the deeper, emotional sides of one of history's greatest characters and also exploring mental illness and how, often, it is unavoidable. It was a very deep, moving episode, and while I respect your view, I believe if you attempted to look past the fact there isn't much action and approach it with a wider context, you will realise how beautiful the episode is.
I'd like to take the middle ground and say that though I prefer action adventure, it is nice to see some slower paced stories during the course of a series, though preferably not the finale stage!!!!
Saying that, however, I'm not really a big fan of Vincent and The Doctor. I agree it was a well written story and well acted but it just didn't do it for me and I certainly didn't find myself crying at the end. I must admit that though 'Girl in the Fireplace was a better story for me. But that's just a personal opinion as with everything else.
Discarded by who? Only by some fans. The programme makers have yet to address it, really.
Yep. He said he's not human, which he isn't. He didn't say he didn't have any human in him. It's up in the air. (Grrr. *shakes fist at whoever put that stuff in the movie*)
Comments
Well, by same maybe, but that's not being "generally excepted". There are enough posts on this thread to disprove that.
It really doesn't take a genius to figure out I meant series! There's no need to be wilfully obtuse about it.
As for that other point - predominantly, the casual viewers for Doctor Who are younger families. You'll always get the fans tuning in, but the casual viewers' age stays the same. Therefore, the larger share of the audience would be the younger families, and will have been much more likely to catch Ecclestone's series than Baker's.
I hope I've helped alleviate your confusion somewhat...
Why was that out of curiosity? Lack of chemistry? Or didn't you believe the Doctor could fall for Louis XV courtesan?
After all David and Sophia were dating. I thought you could practically see the hormones
But I assume you found the attraction between Rory and Amy believable from the beginning? Because there was a hell of a lot more passion dispalyed between the Dr and Madame de Pompadour than those two
One of my earliest posts here was to say I liked this one and hadn't realised it was a byword for awful. (I thought the monster nightmarish but not perhaps in the same way Tony might have!) I don't need lots of episodes like this, though. I like Doctor Who to mostly be like, well, traditional Doctor Who (whatever that means), but when they step outside the usual framework and do it as well as this, I'm happy. If others press their "Forget" buttons I quite understand.
Series 2 vs 5: Both had their ups and downs in terms of episode quality, 5 having more ups than 2. MS' nailing of the character was immediately compelling (getting there quicker than I remember DT doing?) and I enjoyed Doctor/Amy more than series 2 Doctor/Rose. Both series did a good job of bonding the audience to new Doctors and guaranteeing a lot of people looking forward to next year. As I understand it DT has a natural advantage over MS in physical scrumptiousness for a section of the audience, so well done MS for having the acting skill to overcome whatever hideous deformity it is that blights him. Well done both teams, really - it's all pretty good fun.
Having said that, I'm not keen on the overall direction RTD/DT took the Doctor character and feel much more comfortable with this series 5 style. I'm crossing fingers for a similar approach next year. (Wouldn't mind if they try a little harder to not have "magic" resolutions though.)
Which was part of the problem: I personally found it totally unbelievable that the Doctor could display any such feelings for any human-because it makes no sense! He's an alien! The relationship between Amy and rory was more believable because it was a case of two humans acting as humans often do to each other. The Girl in the Fireplace was a lot less irritating than all the Doctor/Rose stuff, admittedly-but only if you overlooked the somewhat disturbing inference of the Doctor having feelings for the girl. The age and species difference would make any such notion laughable if you apply any kind of logic to the situation.
But he's half human, so where's the problem with the species! My main gripe with The Girl in the Fireplace was that it didn't fit in with Series 2, he had the Rose thing going so it seemed a bit odd for him to be falling for someone else and Rose not seeming too bothered. It would have been better in Series 3 or 4.
I don't think he is half-human is he? Wasn't taht just made up for the TV Movie and generally discarded in Dr Who folklore, even though that episode is considered canon?
Any way - why shouldn't he fall in love with a human? To say that makes no sense, as some have, seems in itself nonsensical, as to all outward intents and purposes, we are exactly the same. Throughout the classic series, many characters and companions have fallen for people of a different species (leela is the first that comes to mind, but right at the beginning we had Susan and David).Of course, if any idiot producer in the future decides to end the series by casting a female Doctor, then it makes the whole Doctor / romance (indeed Time Lord / romance) sick, twisted and vile(!) (sorry, maybe that does kind of sound a little homophobic....!)
PS - I do agree that in the context of the whole series, it was a little odd that the Dr suddenly ignored the "love of his life" for someone he'd only just met!
Not "discarded", just never mentioned. It was retconned in the novels - the Doctor's timeline and DNA were fiddled with by Faction Paradox.
No reason. After all, we don't know how genetically similar Gallifreyans or Time Lords are to humans so to decry it as "illogical" is meaningless.
Personally, I don't much care for it but as it's been seen on screen there's nothing I or any other fan can do about it!
I think a female Doctor would be fantastic and the producer a genius but I don't know what you mean?
So, I found that part way more believable than the Doctor fancying someone as unsophisticated as Rose
So, everyone looks at things differently, don't they?
Also, in series 5 episode Cold Blood, as the Doctor is about to be decontaminated he yells at the Silurian scientist to stop, categorically stating that he is not human.
Therefore the Half Human nonsense has been eradicated, finally...
Part of why I liked it was the to me absolutely believable relationship which developed between the Doctor and Mme de Pompadour.(I didn't know the actors were dating in real life, but I'm not surprised). It certainly didn't seem to me that Rose wasn't bothered by it, as I recall she seemed to be at a loss to know how to deal with it, but clearly upset.
It has remained one of my favourite episodes in one of my favourite series.
Series 5, though it has had several excellent episodes, and much as I love Matt's Doctor hasn't had the same impact for me.
I understand your point entirely, and I loved The Girl in the Fireplace. My favourite episode of Series 2, by a country mile. It was beautiful.
May I ask what you thought of Vincent and the Doctor? Because this episode moved me in a way no other episode has. It was like a drama, not a bit of lighthearted fun, as usual.
Well, I suppose finding something "sick, twisted and vile" could well indicate a phobia to whatever it is. But no need to apologise if that's the way you feel. They are harsh words to use when you yourself raised the subject. Not sure why you felt the need to air it.
I agree, one of the most beautiful programmes I've ever seen on TV ever.
Visually stunning, superbly acted and as you say, very moving.
The only problem with it is that every time I think of it I start crying....again. I'm doing it now (and I don't cry easily).
I loved Vincent and the Doctor as a piece of TV drama. It was stunning and gets 10/10 from me every single time. Should win bucketful of awards and will go down in folklore as one of the best episodes ever (yes I said it). It didn't treat the viewers as idiots and left everything open to interpretation (such as the fact Vincent could see the Krayfayis, while the others couldn't. The episode clearly in, my view, suggests that he can do this because of how creative and how he can see things others can't - the scene where he, the Doctor and Amy observe the skies as evidence. However most people like it drawn in crayon, as usual, so criticise it as a continuity error :mad:)
It is definately better than The Girl in the Fireplace (in my opinion) and anything Series 2 or the rest of 5 had to offer.
Well I personally love Girl in the Fireplace (despite it's obvious flaw with the Rose situation) yet hate Vincent and the Doctor. Nothing happened for most of the episode apart from they went for a walk in the country and faced one of the worst realized monsters in Doctor Who history, then an over melodramatic ending with that pop song cynically trying to get at viewers' emotions. And worst of all there was the very real possibility that the Doctor's actions contributed to Vincent's suicide. I don't call that entertainment.
The Doctor's "Good things, bad things" speech amicably sums up your point. He clearly states that Vincent had too many problems to be solved so easily and that he (Vincent) will forever be grateful to the Doctor and Amy for providing some good things to his overwhelming bad things.
I take it you want all action Who episodes. The whole point of VATD wasn't too have all action, fighting off the baddies drama. It was about exploring the deeper, emotional sides of one of history's greatest characters and also exploring mental illness and how, often, it is unavoidable. It was a very deep, moving episode, and while I respect your view, I believe if you attempted to look past the fact there isn't much action and approach it with a wider context, you will realise how beautiful the episode is.
Discarded by who? Only by some fans. The programme makers have yet to address it, really. Yes, to all outward appearances, which is probably why some people who haven't really thought through the whole 'alien' thing happily accept this nonsense. But in all other respects, humans and Time Lords are not the same, not even remotely-we don't live for several centuries and have a completely alien ability to change our entire bodies, for a start. It could not work. It is never stated that Susan or Andred are Time Lords, only that they are Gallifreyan. On that, we agree.
Matt Smith doesn't
I now love watching The Doctor.
I'd like to take the middle ground and say that though I prefer action adventure, it is nice to see some slower paced stories during the course of a series, though preferably not the finale stage!!!!
Saying that, however, I'm not really a big fan of Vincent and The Doctor. I agree it was a well written story and well acted but it just didn't do it for me and I certainly didn't find myself crying at the end. I must admit that though 'Girl in the Fireplace was a better story for me. But that's just a personal opinion as with everything else.
I think I'd have to disagree, solely for the fact that the statement by the Doctor was a definite statement, no ambiguity at all.
Yep. He said he's not human, which he isn't. He didn't say he didn't have any human in him. It's up in the air. (Grrr. *shakes fist at whoever put that stuff in the movie*)
To be fair the claim was of inter-species canoodling, not specifically Time Lord. Or have I missed a point?