Places like London, Leicester and Birmingham are fabulous multicultural/multiracial cities and has served us well in the past 10 years.
I have to disagree. I'm living in Birmingham at the moment and I doubt many would share your opinion that's it's fabulous due to multiculturalism.
I was in a shop about a month back and a black guy was arguing with a young asian lady (ethnic origins are used here as they are relevant to this story). He started swearing and throwing racial insults at her. I asked her what that was about and she explained that, in that part of Birmingham, there was a lot of tensions between black and asian communities.
We've had riots, murders and all kinds of nasty stuff due to 'multiculturalism'. It's extremely common place. So forgive me if I don't believe that it's been fabulous for this city, if anything it divides more than it unites.
just look at places like Bradford and Burnley - racism happens between different "castes" of Muslims too - some aren't allowed to speak to other "castes" and this is just accepted as commonplace
yet if a white person chooses not to speak to a Muslim for ANY reason, they're immediately labelled as racist
just look at places like Bradford and Burnley - racism happens between different "castes" of Muslims too - some aren't allowed to speak to other "castes" and this is just accepted as commonplace
yet if a white person chooses not to speak to a Muslim for ANY reason, they're immediately labelled as racist
hardly an equal application of the term
I thought it was Indians that had castes, not Muslims? I also thought it was a social division, not a religious one?
I have to say too that I've never read, heard, or seen anyone who refuse to talk to a 'Muslim' labelled a racist. Are you sure you don't mean brown people in general (though I've not heard it in that context either)?
just look at places like Bradford and Burnley - racism happens between different "castes" of Muslims too - some aren't allowed to speak to other "castes" and this is just accepted as commonplace
hardly an equal application of the term
Your application of the term is even worse. Which castes are these then? And are they actual races? And if not, how is it racism? Finally, who is 'not allowing' them to speak?
Never thought of it that way at the time, but wasnt the werewolf in the film on the yorkshire moors???
Id better not digress though or scumble will be thinking im equating werewolves with muslims:D:D
Never thought of it that way at the time, but wasnt the werewolf in the film on the yorkshire moors???
Id better not digress though or scumble will be thinking im equating werewolves with muslims:D:D
I'm actually thinking that you're far more qualified to talk about werewolves than anything to do with other cultures. And you still haven't explained why it is significant that Christianity is the state religion in the UK,
Don't worry, we've gathered that you have no answer to the question.
I'm actually thinking that you're far more qualified to talk about werewolves than anything to do with other cultures. And you still haven't explained why it is significant that Christianity is the state religion in the UK,
Don't worry, we've gathered that you have no answer to the question.
Well cover me in eggs and flour and bake me for 20 minutes!!!!!!!!!! can you seriously believe I havent answered? I know some of you armchair liberals are blinkered but I didnt realise you were blindfolded to the point you cannot read!!!!.
Look me ol flower!!! Once again I mentioned the fact of christianity being the UK state religion in response to DS saying this is NOT a christian country. DS gave his view I gave mine, is that not the purpose of a forum???The significance of the fact is merely that it is fact. Maybe you could tell us what you would like me to answer, why do you believe I brought this fact into the debate?? Try as you might you cannot find any post by me that mentions islam or muslims in the same sentence as christianity. However please look back over my posts on this subject to check if you wish.
Isn't everyone tired of the sarcastic and cynical "oh no you can't say that you'll be called a racist"?
I think most people know when someone is being racist or intolerant or inciting hatred. The trouble is some people make the accusation too frivolously sometimes. Also some people simply can't handle the cold hard fact that they actually are racist! I mean these people do exist it's not some sort of conspiracy.
If a point calls for sarcasm, I have no trouble using it. I'm tired of the same old accusations on this thread despite many people giving thoughtful, relevant reasons why multiculturism doesn't work for them.
You are confusing national pride with mono-culturalism. You can be patriotic and multi-cultural. Britain already had many cultures before mass immigration started. Ask the Scots, Welsh, Irish, Cornish, etc. There never was a single "British Culture".
Multi-culturalism is about celebrating and appreciating diverse cultures. The opposite to this would be to enforce a single culture on everyone. Who would decide what that culture was? Would you ban Scottish folk dancing and kilt wearing for example?
An awful lot of British ex-pats treat the place they now live in as an extension of the Britain they left and behave just as they would at home. Should they berequired toadopt the language and culture of the their new country too?
Well maybe 'required' is a step too far, but I don't think 'expected' is.
Why anyone would move to a foreign country and not want to embrace the language, culture etc., puzzles me greatly. Why bother in the first place?
Anyone who is so enamoured of their own culture/language/traditions etc., and is not willing to integrate, is downright rude in my book, and could certainly not be considered an asset to the country.
If a point calls for sarcasm, I have no trouble using it. I'm tired of the same old accusations on this thread despite many people giving thoughtful, relevant reasons why multiculturism doesn't work for them.
Thoughtful relevant reasons?
What, sentiments like 'I don't like the way these people live, they should live the way I do' ?
Or, 'They had the cheek to speak a foreign language on the bus!'.
Or, '...as a white male I am in a minority and I don't like it'
Yes they are certainly thoughtfully and relevantly prejudiced.
We know Mutliculturalism doesn't work for racists, bigots and xenophobes. It's not rocket science
I have to disagree. I'm living in Birmingham at the moment and I doubt many would share your opinion that's it's fabulous due to multiculturalism.
I was in a shop about a month back and a black guy was arguing with a young asian lady (ethnic origins are used here as they are relevant to this story). He started swearing and throwing racial insults at her. I asked her what that was about and she explained that, in that part of Birmingham, there was a lot of tensions between black and asian communities.
We've had riots, murders and all kinds of nasty stuff due to 'multiculturalism'. It's extremely common place. So forgive me if I don't believe that it's been fabulous for this city, if anything it divides more than it unites.
No you haven't. You've had riots, murders and all kinds of nasty stuff due to racists, bigots and xenophobes. ( which exist in all groups btw )
These are the people who cause divide. Everyone else gets on fine.
I have to disagree. I'm living in Birmingham at the moment and I doubt many would share your opinion that's it's fabulous due to multiculturalism.
I was in a shop about a month back and a black guy was arguing with a young asian lady (ethnic origins are used here as they are relevant to this story). He started swearing and throwing racial insults at her. I asked her what that was about and she explained that, in that part of Birmingham, there was a lot of tensions between black and asian communities.
We've had riots, murders and all kinds of nasty stuff due to 'multiculturalism'. It's extremely common place. So forgive me if I don't believe that it's been fabulous for this city, if anything it divides more than it unites.
Interesting but rather one-sided view. Nasty multicultural incidents are 'extremely commonplace'? I doubt whether they are more commonplace than the normal everyday activities of people of different cultures who get on with each other, and even marry one another. How familiar are you with a monocultural Birmingham anyway? It was rather a long time ago, and I understand it was no paradise then. And what is a 'multicultural murder'? I'd like to know, given that it has been so hard to get a decent definition of the term 'multicultural' in this thread.
The white family who get on perfectly well with their Chinese neighbours, or the Black man who is friendly with the Asian newsagent that he has visited for his daily paper for years never get reported in the media because it's normal.
Translation here is a link that is more to my utopian liberal view of Birmingham, than any nasty experiences of the people that live there that might prove me wrong.
Translation here is a link that is more to my utopian liberal view of Birmingham, than any nasty experiences of the people that live there that might prove me wrong.
Good god.
:rolleyes:
Read the link first, and comment afterwards - it makes you sound more sensible. The link is to someone who lives in Birmingham, has experience of living elsewhere, and makes reasonable, well-balanced comments, compared to Rooks' view. As an adult might expect, he explains that the mixed parts of Birmingham are neither heaven nor hell, and have their good and bad sides. Certainly I have personal experience of the type of person he mentions who condemn whole groups of people without ever giving them a chance. I'm sure you're not like that...
Given that the poster acknowledges that there are lots of problems, including some caused by the multicultural nature of the inner city, I don't see where Utopia comes in. Liberal? Don't spit your dummy just because you don't agree with the thoughtful, alternative, view of someone who is actually on the spot.
But some of what made us great is Scottish culture (some of our greatest engineers, artists and scientists were Scottish). Yet I'm sure many Scots would be horrified if forced to comply with a standard British culture. There is no such thing, and even if there were it would be, like the English language, a fluid and ever changing thing.
My dad is Scottish. I spent years trekking up their and back and to be honest, theirs practically no difference with England.
The accents less different than Londoner's and brummies, in most cases. They don't all speak like Rab C Nesbitt, especially in the North.
Their is national pride though and the main gripe is they didn't get an equal say in the UK. Scotland's doesn't see itself as any less important, than England, something the English don't share.
Haggis, Kilts and Bagpipes are similar to last night of the proms for us. Its more patriotic, than cultural and doesn't play a big part in most peoples lives.
Compare that to some of the cultural aspects of some of the immigrants coming in to Britain. Its almost totally alien to the indigenous population of this country, which is hardly surprising, having evolved half way around the world, in isolation for centuries.
No you don't have to accept it. You only have to accept British law. Those who practise Sharia courts here are willing participants who are making private contracts between themselves to observe Sharia. None of it can flout British law.
And I would ask for the 4th time as you are obviously interested ... Do you honestly think there's no one on this forum that displays xenophobia, racism or bigotry?
The problem with that is, if all sides agree, they can bypass British law for just about any thing they like.
Their have been criminal cases presided over by Sharia courts and because no one will talk, the police are helpless to do anything.
The more multiculturalism takes hold, the less immigrants see any reason, to pay any attention to this country. They just want the land and the financial benefits. Everything else is catered for by their community.
The official language is definitely not English. Still why should they worry, they have people like you running the country, either a paid up multiculturalist or to scared of bring branded a racist, to do anything.
If a point calls for sarcasm, I have no trouble using it. I'm tired of the same old accusations on this thread despite many people giving thoughtful, relevant reasons why multiculturism doesn't work for them.
It's a shame you don't seem to have the same level of respect for those that have taken the time to explain why it has worked for them and what it means to them. Balance, right? And its not everyone who disagrees that uses the racist term. Seems a bit odd to generalise this.
If a point calls for sarcasm, I have no trouble using it. I'm tired of the same old accusations on this thread despite many people giving thoughtful, relevant reasons why multiculturism doesn't work for them.
I've completely missed these thoughtful, relevant reasons you mention. Perhaps you could run through some of them for the benefit of we sceptics?
I've only seen 20 pages of people moaning that foreigners look different, dress differently, speak differently and sometimes behave differently, with no indications of how this is actually a problem. I'd appreciate your help here, it appears that you have sharper eyesight than I do.
My dad is Scottish. I spent years trekking up their and back and to be honest, theirs practically no difference with England.
.....
Compare that to some of the cultural aspects of some of the immigrants coming in to Britain. Its almost totally alien to the indigenous population of this country, which is hardly surprising, having evolved half way around the world, in isolation for centuries.
Case in point. Scottish culture was forcibly Anglicised, that's why most of them no longer speak Scots Gaelic. Their culture would be rather more 'alien' without English interference.
Some immigrant cultures could be said to be very 'alien' to the UK, even though last time I checked, they ate, slept and told each other jokes in a rather similar manner to everyone else. However as usual, you fail to explain why this is a problem. And which culture is this that you reckon has been 'in isolation for centuries'? Are the Japanese causing trouble again?
You are confusing national pride with mono-culturalism. You can be patriotic and multi-cultural. Britain already had many cultures before mass immigration started. Ask the Scots, Welsh, Irish, Cornish, etc. There never was a single "British Culture".
I think you will find most immigrants have one foot in this country and one in the old. It's not their fault it must be tempting to have your cake and eat it. That's multiculturalism for you.
Dianne abbot support the west indies in cricket, not sure how she fits in to your logic and she is not alone.
Multi-culturalism is about celebrating and appreciating diverse cultures. The opposite to this would be to enforce a single culture on everyone. Who would decide what that culture was? Would you ban Scottish folk dancing and kilt wearing for example?
Why?
Why is having a country with diverse cultures, better than the single culture one, we had before the post WWII, waves of immigration.
We can still have multiple races and multiple religions. We don't need multiculturalism for that.
Multiculturalism promotes division, separation and suspicion amongst different people. Why should I celebrate diversity, when it serves no useful purpose. Why not just integrate and I don't have too.
We could simply have demanded full immigration as the price for allowing people to settle in this country. Why not, it's our country, no one asked any one to come here. Seems a reasonable bargain to me.
An awful lot of British ex-pats treat the place they now live in as an extension of the Britain they left and behave just as they would at home. Should they be required to adopt the language and culture of the their new country too?
I know and their ruining those countries. I'm amazed the French haven't deported them, or forced them to take French citizenship and swear allegiance, plus learnt fluent French.
The problem with that is, if all sides agree, they can bypass British law for just about any thing they like.
No that's not how private contracts work. British Law still usurps them.
Their have been criminal cases presided over by Sharia courts and because no one will talk, the police are helpless to do anything.
There are people of ALL cultures who take the law into their own hands. Don't pay back the 'British' loan shark. or British 'Drug dealer' and you'll soon get a taste of that.
Or is that OK, and you've only got a problem with criminals from other cultures?
I think there's a massive difference between co-existance and getting on fine.
All right then if you want to be pedantic, I meant everyone else gets on fine as much as people of the same culture get on fine. i.e the culture, skin colour, etc isn't an issue.
Comments
American werewolf??
I have to disagree. I'm living in Birmingham at the moment and I doubt many would share your opinion that's it's fabulous due to multiculturalism.
I was in a shop about a month back and a black guy was arguing with a young asian lady (ethnic origins are used here as they are relevant to this story). He started swearing and throwing racial insults at her. I asked her what that was about and she explained that, in that part of Birmingham, there was a lot of tensions between black and asian communities.
We've had riots, murders and all kinds of nasty stuff due to 'multiculturalism'. It's extremely common place. So forgive me if I don't believe that it's been fabulous for this city, if anything it divides more than it unites.
yet if a white person chooses not to speak to a Muslim for ANY reason, they're immediately labelled as racist
hardly an equal application of the term
I thought it was Indians that had castes, not Muslims? I also thought it was a social division, not a religious one?
I have to say too that I've never read, heard, or seen anyone who refuse to talk to a 'Muslim' labelled a racist. Are you sure you don't mean brown people in general (though I've not heard it in that context either)?
Your application of the term is even worse. Which castes are these then? And are they actual races? And if not, how is it racism? Finally, who is 'not allowing' them to speak?
There are at least five things wrong with the above illogical statement. Don't you feel bad writing such nonsense?
Never thought of it that way at the time, but wasnt the werewolf in the film on the yorkshire moors???
Id better not digress though or scumble will be thinking im equating werewolves with muslims:D:D
I'm actually thinking that you're far more qualified to talk about werewolves than anything to do with other cultures. And you still haven't explained why it is significant that Christianity is the state religion in the UK,
Don't worry, we've gathered that you have no answer to the question.
Well cover me in eggs and flour and bake me for 20 minutes!!!!!!!!!! can you seriously believe I havent answered? I know some of you armchair liberals are blinkered but I didnt realise you were blindfolded to the point you cannot read!!!!.
Look me ol flower!!! Once again I mentioned the fact of christianity being the UK state religion in response to DS saying this is NOT a christian country. DS gave his view I gave mine, is that not the purpose of a forum???The significance of the fact is merely that it is fact. Maybe you could tell us what you would like me to answer, why do you believe I brought this fact into the debate?? Try as you might you cannot find any post by me that mentions islam or muslims in the same sentence as christianity. However please look back over my posts on this subject to check if you wish.
If a point calls for sarcasm, I have no trouble using it. I'm tired of the same old accusations on this thread despite many people giving thoughtful, relevant reasons why multiculturism doesn't work for them.
Well maybe 'required' is a step too far, but I don't think 'expected' is.
Why anyone would move to a foreign country and not want to embrace the language, culture etc., puzzles me greatly. Why bother in the first place?
Anyone who is so enamoured of their own culture/language/traditions etc., and is not willing to integrate, is downright rude in my book, and could certainly not be considered an asset to the country.
Thoughtful relevant reasons?
What, sentiments like 'I don't like the way these people live, they should live the way I do' ?
Or, 'They had the cheek to speak a foreign language on the bus!'.
Or, '...as a white male I am in a minority and I don't like it'
Yes they are certainly thoughtfully and relevantly prejudiced.
We know Mutliculturalism doesn't work for racists, bigots and xenophobes. It's not rocket science
No you haven't. You've had riots, murders and all kinds of nasty stuff due to racists, bigots and xenophobes. ( which exist in all groups btw )
These are the people who cause divide. Everyone else gets on fine.
Oh come on :rolleyes:
Interesting but rather one-sided view. Nasty multicultural incidents are 'extremely commonplace'? I doubt whether they are more commonplace than the normal everyday activities of people of different cultures who get on with each other, and even marry one another. How familiar are you with a monocultural Birmingham anyway? It was rather a long time ago, and I understand it was no paradise then. And what is a 'multicultural murder'? I'd like to know, given that it has been so hard to get a decent definition of the term 'multicultural' in this thread.
The white family who get on perfectly well with their Chinese neighbours, or the Black man who is friendly with the Asian newsagent that he has visited for his daily paper for years never get reported in the media because it's normal.
Here is a rather better-balanced view of life in Birmingham and its problems.
Translation here is a link that is more to my utopian liberal view of Birmingham, than any nasty experiences of the people that live there that might prove me wrong.
Good god.
:rolleyes:
Read the link first, and comment afterwards - it makes you sound more sensible. The link is to someone who lives in Birmingham, has experience of living elsewhere, and makes reasonable, well-balanced comments, compared to Rooks' view. As an adult might expect, he explains that the mixed parts of Birmingham are neither heaven nor hell, and have their good and bad sides. Certainly I have personal experience of the type of person he mentions who condemn whole groups of people without ever giving them a chance. I'm sure you're not like that...
Given that the poster acknowledges that there are lots of problems, including some caused by the multicultural nature of the inner city, I don't see where Utopia comes in. Liberal? Don't spit your dummy just because you don't agree with the thoughtful, alternative, view of someone who is actually on the spot.
My dad is Scottish. I spent years trekking up their and back and to be honest, theirs practically no difference with England.
The accents less different than Londoner's and brummies, in most cases. They don't all speak like Rab C Nesbitt, especially in the North.
Their is national pride though and the main gripe is they didn't get an equal say in the UK. Scotland's doesn't see itself as any less important, than England, something the English don't share.
Haggis, Kilts and Bagpipes are similar to last night of the proms for us. Its more patriotic, than cultural and doesn't play a big part in most peoples lives.
Compare that to some of the cultural aspects of some of the immigrants coming in to Britain. Its almost totally alien to the indigenous population of this country, which is hardly surprising, having evolved half way around the world, in isolation for centuries.
I think there's a massive difference between co-existance and getting on fine.
The problem with that is, if all sides agree, they can bypass British law for just about any thing they like.
Their have been criminal cases presided over by Sharia courts and because no one will talk, the police are helpless to do anything.
The more multiculturalism takes hold, the less immigrants see any reason, to pay any attention to this country. They just want the land and the financial benefits. Everything else is catered for by their community.
The official language is definitely not English. Still why should they worry, they have people like you running the country, either a paid up multiculturalist or to scared of bring branded a racist, to do anything.
It's a shame you don't seem to have the same level of respect for those that have taken the time to explain why it has worked for them and what it means to them. Balance, right? And its not everyone who disagrees that uses the racist term. Seems a bit odd to generalise this.
I've completely missed these thoughtful, relevant reasons you mention. Perhaps you could run through some of them for the benefit of we sceptics?
I've only seen 20 pages of people moaning that foreigners look different, dress differently, speak differently and sometimes behave differently, with no indications of how this is actually a problem. I'd appreciate your help here, it appears that you have sharper eyesight than I do.
Case in point. Scottish culture was forcibly Anglicised, that's why most of them no longer speak Scots Gaelic. Their culture would be rather more 'alien' without English interference.
Some immigrant cultures could be said to be very 'alien' to the UK, even though last time I checked, they ate, slept and told each other jokes in a rather similar manner to everyone else. However as usual, you fail to explain why this is a problem. And which culture is this that you reckon has been 'in isolation for centuries'? Are the Japanese causing trouble again?
I think you will find most immigrants have one foot in this country and one in the old. It's not their fault it must be tempting to have your cake and eat it. That's multiculturalism for you.
Dianne abbot support the west indies in cricket, not sure how she fits in to your logic and she is not alone.
Why?
Why is having a country with diverse cultures, better than the single culture one, we had before the post WWII, waves of immigration.
We can still have multiple races and multiple religions. We don't need multiculturalism for that.
Multiculturalism promotes division, separation and suspicion amongst different people. Why should I celebrate diversity, when it serves no useful purpose. Why not just integrate and I don't have too.
We could simply have demanded full immigration as the price for allowing people to settle in this country. Why not, it's our country, no one asked any one to come here. Seems a reasonable bargain to me.
I know and their ruining those countries. I'm amazed the French haven't deported them, or forced them to take French citizenship and swear allegiance, plus learnt fluent French.
No that's not how private contracts work. British Law still usurps them.
There are people of ALL cultures who take the law into their own hands. Don't pay back the 'British' loan shark. or British 'Drug dealer' and you'll soon get a taste of that.
Or is that OK, and you've only got a problem with criminals from other cultures?
All right then if you want to be pedantic, I meant everyone else gets on fine as much as people of the same culture get on fine. i.e the culture, skin colour, etc isn't an issue.