I actually kind of agree with the Wikipedia comment - incestuous lust between the sisters, I always see that rather than normal sisterly love - they both play it too much to be just a normal relationship. I'm clearly wrong because of the legends, but don't think Wiki sounds too ridiculous.
Although the Merlin-Arthur gay relationship comment made me laugh - bromance yes, gay no.
I loved this episode, but like many of you felt it was rushed. I wanted a three hour finale - or two at the very least. I am really pleased Lancelot knows Merlin is magic...now just to tell Arthur.
Didn't think it was a massive cliffhanger - Uther is off his rocker so Arthur may become kind, Morgeuse and Morgana have gone missing and one may or may not be dead. Could have been much stronger.
Round table was fab and I love all the knights.
I've only just got onto the fact one of them is called Sir Lyon. I've been wondering who Surleeon was all this time!!! :eek::o
The legends don't really tell us how Merlin reacts to the affair so it will be interesting to see what he does when/if he finds out. He loves all three of them and one of the most subtle sub-plots of the series is that he actually helped Arthur to choose two of the most prominent knights for the round table. So I would imagine he will be distraught.
Well in the generally accepted version of events, i.e. the one that is used most often, Merlin is long gone by the time it happens so never gets to express an opinion.
He tends to assist Uther in conceiving Arthur, teach and protect the young Arthur and then be gone from Camelot by the time everything falls apart (often because he falls for a young filly and gets trapped in the crystal cave) so he's not able to react to it.
Well in the generally accepted version of events, i.e. the one that is used most often, Merlin is long gone by the time it happens so never gets to express an opinion.
He tends to assist Uther in conceiving Arthur, teach and protect the young Arthur and then be gone from Camelot by the time everything falls apart (often because he falls for a young filly and gets trapped in the crystal cave) so he's not able to react to it.
Thanks. I didn't think he was there when Camelot fell but, only because of other programmes I've watched and things I've seen the internet. Given what we've seen so far I'm glad he won't be there to see Guinevere and Lancelot betray Arthur.
If someone can recommend a good book (:eek:) on the legends I'd really appreciate it. As a result of the programme I've done some research on the internet but it all seems rather bitty. I KNOW the series is an updated adaptation of the legends but, it would be nice to read more about the others.
Oh like most I think the relationship between Arthur and Merlin is most definitely a "bromance" and why anyone would think either character is gay is beyond me! It's obvious from the script the acting and the legend that Arthur is totally besotted with Guinevere. If people think otherwise they must be watching a completely different programme, or listening to another story.
In the legend Arthur is certainly not "besotted" with Guinevere. His behaviour after she runs off with Lancelot is about his pride and the fact that 'his' woman had the nerve to shag around under his nose and he didn't realise it. I also take issue with you saying "the acting" makes it clear Arthur is besotted with Gwen. Bradley James has made it explicitly clear numerous times that he doesn't like the Arthur/Guinevere romance aspect of the show. In fact he's gone so far as to say he wants Gwen to end up with Lancelot. I think this shows through in his acting. He's always so dull and wooden when he's doing 'romance' scenes with Angel.
No-one is saying that Merlin and Arthur are "gay" that's way too rigid and anachronistic a term to apply to these characters. People can see their relationship as 'bromance' (uh, I hate that term) or romance if they choose. They're not wrong to do so. Arthur's entitled to another romance once Gwen ditches him...there's nothing to say that romance won't be with Merlin.
In the legend Arthur is certainly not "besotted" with Guinevere. His behaviour after she runs off with Lancelot is about his pride and the fact that 'his' woman had the nerve to shag around under his nose and he didn't realise it. I also take issue with you saying "the acting" makes it clear Arthur is besotted with Gwen. Bradley James has made it explicitly clear numerous times that he doesn't like the Arthur/Guinevere romance aspect of the show. In fact he's gone so far as to say he wants Gwen to end up with Lancelot. I think this shows through in his acting. He's always so dull and wooden when he's doing 'romance' scenes with Angel.
No-one is saying that Merlin and Arthur are "gay" that's way too rigid and anachronistic a term to apply to these characters. People can see their relationship as 'bromance' (uh, I hate that term) or romance if they choose. They're not wrong to do so. Arthur's entitled to another romance once Gwen ditches him...there's nothing to say that romance won't be with Merlin.
Apologies if I offended you, but I really don't buy either of them being gay.
1 - With all due respect, regardless of whether Bradley likes acting with Angel, she is Guinevere who is a HUGE part of the legend of Arthur.
2 - You're also doing Bradley a huge disservice by saying he's wooden when acting with Guinevere. I thought both actors were believable after all he's a future king and she's a serving girl so the whole thing is a big no-no. We saw Uther's reaction when Arthur tried to tell him he was in love with her, so it's understandable why he tried to hide his true feelings for so long.
3 - At the moment I would say that anyone who tells us on numerous occasions that he would give up his throne for another makes it very difficult to assume that he's anything but in love with Guinevere..
4 - The programme is about Merlin therefore unless they make a spin-off programme we won't know what Arthur will do after they find out.
5 - Several posters (who clearly know more about the legends than myself - hence I asked for a book recommendation) have posted in this thread that Merlin isn't around when Lancelot and Guinnivere get together because he has love interest (with a woman :eek: ) of his own.
Apologies if I offended you, but I really don't buy either of them being gay.
1 - With all due respect, I really don't think the actor can have much say in whether the character is gay or not.
2 - You're doing Bradley a huge disservice by saying he's wooden when acting with Guinivere. I thought both actors were believable after all he's a future king and she's a serving girl so the whole thing is a big no-no. We saw Uther's reaction when Arthur tried to tell him he was in love with her, so it's understandable why he tried to hide his true feelings for so long.
3 - At the moment I would say that anyone who tells us on numerous occasions that he would give up his throne for another makes it very difficult to assume otherwise.
4 - The programme is about Merlin therefore unless they make a spin-off programme we won't know what Arthur will do after they find out.
5 - Several posters (who clearly know more about the legends than myself - hence I asked for a book recommendation) have posted in this thread that Merlin isn't around when Lancelot and Guinniver get together because he has love interest (with a woman :eek: ) of his own.
Nah, you didn't offend me, it's cool.
Like I said "gay" is the wrong word for those characters, neither of them are gay, absolutely.
I like Bradley James just fine, and he's a passable actor most of the time but his romantic scenes with Guinevere are dire. The writers can force the character to say all this 'epic' stuff, "I'd give up my throne blah blah blah" but it doesn't mean Bradley can sell it. He hates the A/G stuff and it kinda shows. I'm not saying Bradley has a say whether Arthur is 'gay' (course not), just that he has WAY more chemistry with Colin than he does with Angel.
Perhaps in the legends Merlin isn't around when Guinevere does her disappearing act, but Merlin and Arthur are the same age in this version so I'm sure he will be. Then nature will take its course between the two of them
Like I said "gay" is the wrong word for those characters, neither of them are gay, absolutely.
I like Bradley James just fine, and he's a passable actor most of the time but his romantic scenes with Guinevere are dire. The writers can force the character to say all this 'epic' stuff, "I'd give up my throne blah blah blah" but it doesn't mean Bradley can sell it. He hates the A/G stuff and it kinda shows. I'm not saying Bradley has a say whether Arthur is 'gay' (course not), just that he has WAY more chemistry with Colin than he does with Angel.
Yeah normally in the legends Merlin isn't around when Guinevere does her disappearing act, but Merlin and Arthur are the same age in this version so I'm sure he will be. Then nature will take its course between the two of them
Apologies again because I edited my post as the same time as you were writing yours!
I know what you mean about them seeming "wooden" though but, I honestly put it down to the characters fighting their feelings for each other. I do find him more genuine than her but, I think it's because I KNOW that after all he went through to win her hand; she's going to do the dirty on him, with one of his best friends (hussy).
I KNOW that after all he went through to win her hand; she's going to do the dirty on him, with one of his best friends (hussy).
Heh, true. However I cut this version of Guinevere a bit of slack for this. I think she is trying with Arthur, and if Lancelot wasn't around they might just about make it work. Ultimately she's just too physically attracted to Lancelot for her relationship with Arthur to work.
Oh well.
It doesn't help that this shows version of Lancelot is brilliant. Charming, charismatic, intelligent, GORGEOUS. No wonder she can't help herself!
Didn't think it was a massive cliffhanger - Uther is off his rocker so Arthur may become kind, Morgeuse and Morgana have gone missing and one may or may not be dead. Could have been much stronger.
I felt it wasn't really a cliffhanger at all, and would have been a decent series (to use the yank version) finale if needs must. Enough resolved and enough dangling.
I don't know who started this whole 'gay' thing but I wish they hadn't! Merlin and Arthur are not gay, can we drop it please? lol
As for saying Bradley and Angel are wooden with each other, to be honest, I find them very convincing. I've seen a few things with them just being Bradley and Angel and to me they get on extremely well. I don't see why or how this would translate to them not liking acting together? Those hugs say it all, Bradley always seems to bury his head in Angel's neck/shoulder I know this sounds weird but this to me is the sign of a proper hug!
Does anyone else not get a sense of Merlin maturing or learning about the consequences of using his powers?
I feel it is similar to Clark Kent in Smallville who still hasn't become the person we know as Superman.
It's the same with Arthur too, I don't get a sense of the wise person he is meant to become. I doubt he would have been half as bratish as he seems in this series.
I don't know who started this whole 'gay' thing but I wish they hadn't! Merlin and Arthur are not gay, can we drop it please? lol
As for saying Bradley and Angel are wooden with each other, to be honest, I find them very convincing. I've seen a few things with them just being Bradley and Angel and to me they get on extremely well. I don't see why or how this would translate to them not liking acting together? Those hugs say it all, Bradley always seems to bury his head in Angel's neck/shoulder I know this sounds weird but this to me is the sign of a proper hug!
I didn't say Bradley and Angel didn't like acting together! Just that they're good friends who don't have 'romantic' chemistry when they try to act it out.
I also didn't say anything about Merlin and Arthur being gay. That's a modern invention and absolutely doesn't fit the time period these characters are living in.
Koantemplation, I think Arthur has got less bratish - in the first series he was a right spoiled baby, now he has admitted from time to time that Merlin's advice is sound.
Not sure about Merlin's powers progressing or his awareness of hiw own power either. Hmmm...
Apologies again because I edited my post as the same time as you were writing yours!
I know what you mean about them seeming "wooden" though but, I honestly put it down to the characters fighting their feelings for each other. I do find him more genuine than her but, I think it's because I KNOW that after all he went through to win her hand; she's going to do the dirty on him, with one of his best friends (hussy).
Laura- please don't take Jenna's ideas as gospel- she is obsessed with one version of the Arthur story and its not the original either. She is convinced that the series will be doing a disservice to the story if Gwen and Arthur love each other and will not see the developing love/ relationship between them. :rolleyes:
If you want to really understand the legends then you need to start earlier than the romantic period and the Morte de Arthur which is when the bit about Lancelot and Gwen was introduced. It was not part of the orginal stories at all. Then you will get a more rounded view of the stories.
For me, and many others on the thread, Bradley and Angel are more than convincing at portraying the love between them and the obsession that there is anything between Merlin and Arthur is laughable- apparently two blokes can't be friends anymore without there being more to it. :mad:
For me, and many others on the thread, Bradley and Angel are more than convincing at portraying the love between them and the obsession that there is anything between Merlin and Arthur is laughable- apparently two blokes can't be friends anymore without there being more to it. :mad:
Wow chill out. I can't believe you're actually 'mad' about this! They're obviously not convincing because people wouldn't be shipping anyone but them if they were!
For me, and many others on the thread, Bradley and Angel are more than convincing at portraying the love between them and the obsession that there is anything between Merlin and Arthur is laughable- apparently two blokes can't be friends anymore without there being more to it. :mad:
It's the same with any show with two male stars, it doesn't matter how much time they spend discussing/chasing/sleeping with women, someone always comes up with them being 'gay' because they get on with each other (or because they don't) and endless fanfiction is born; Starsky & Hutch, Kirk & Spock, Napoleon & Illya, Smith & Jones, Holmes & Watson, Frodo & Sam etc etc. I don't think there's a single show that hasn't had the characters rewritten by obsessive slash fans. It does get wearing to say the least!:rolleyes:
It's the same with any show with two male stars, it doesn't matter how much time they spend discussing/chasing/sleeping with women, someone always comes up with them being 'gay' because they get on with each other (or because they don't) and endless fanfiction is born; Starsky & Hutch, Kirk & Spock, Napoleon & Illya, Smith & Jones, Holmes & Watson, Frodo & Sam etc etc. I don't think there's a single show that hasn't had the characters rewritten by obsessive slash fans. It does get wearing to say the least!:rolleyes:
Mainly because they always have WAY more chemistry with their male co-star. Take it up with the writers what write them that way, or the actors who play them that way.
Wow chill out. I can't believe you're actually 'mad' about this! They're obviously not convincing because people wouldn't be shipping anyone but them if they were!
They have a mother/son relationship.
Jenna: If you think that's a ,mother/ son relationship then you have some issues you need to deal with.
I am perfectly chilled actually but its irritating to read people on here who repeat themselves ad infinitum and insist that its the only way to look at things.
Talma- I know- its ridiculous- and on here it tends to be people who are obsessed with the Gwen/ lancelot dynamic so it helps them reinforce their argument that they 'must' be together. The fact that its all fiction and that its anyones interpretation as the legend has changed with every generation is easily swept under the carpet.
His mother dies giving birth to him, giving him mega mummy issues. A woman he's known for years but not looked twice at gives him a stern talking to about his manners and suddenly he's all o_O. It's obvious.
The fact that Gwen looks about 40 in some scenes also doesn't help.
I felt it wasn't really a cliffhanger at all, and would have been a decent series (to use the yank version) finale if needs must. Enough resolved and enough dangling.
I guess so, I wasn't major frustrated, mind you the most recent cliffhangers I've had to endure 12 month waits for have been Lost, where I've literally been bouncing around the room in frustration. Still, Merlin is much better than Lost - it acutally has a vague plot!! I digress sorry
If someone can recommend a good book (:eek:) on the legends I'd really appreciate it. As a result of the programme I've done some research on the internet but it all seems rather bitty. I KNOW the series is an updated adaptation of the legends but, it would be nice to read more about the others.
If you want to really understand the legends then you need to start earlier than the romantic period and the Morte de Arthur which is when the bit about Lancelot and Gwen was introduced. It was not part of the orginal stories at all. Then you will get a more rounded view of the stories.
The problem with that is that there isn't really a single comprehensive source to read from. The Vulgate Cycle concerns part of the myth, Geofrey of Monmoth's Kings of Britain only another part of it, Chretiene Le Troyes looks at Lancelot etc.
Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur is the first comprehensive pulling together of various different legends into one cohesive narrative and so is still, in my opinion anyways, the best place to start from to gain a general knowledge..
For a factual examination of the Arthurian mythology then probably start with Geoffrey Ashe, he wrote what was probably the best of the factual "search for Arthur" books and is probably the best Arthurian scholar still widely available in print.
Arthur/Gwen works fine. It's now pretty much established that they're together, albeit in secret (from most, anyway). So the Lancelot story can come into play now.
Comments
Although the Merlin-Arthur gay relationship comment made me laugh - bromance yes, gay no.
I loved this episode, but like many of you felt it was rushed. I wanted a three hour finale - or two at the very least. I am really pleased Lancelot knows Merlin is magic...now just to tell Arthur.
Didn't think it was a massive cliffhanger - Uther is off his rocker so Arthur may become kind, Morgeuse and Morgana have gone missing and one may or may not be dead. Could have been much stronger.
Round table was fab and I love all the knights.
I've only just got onto the fact one of them is called Sir Lyon. I've been wondering who Surleeon was all this time!!!
He tends to assist Uther in conceiving Arthur, teach and protect the young Arthur and then be gone from Camelot by the time everything falls apart (often because he falls for a young filly and gets trapped in the crystal cave) so he's not able to react to it.
Thanks.
If someone can recommend a good book (:eek:) on the legends I'd really appreciate it. As a result of the programme I've done some research on the internet but it all seems rather bitty. I KNOW the series is an updated adaptation of the legends but, it would be nice to read more about the others.
Oh like most I think the relationship between Arthur and Merlin is most definitely a "bromance" and why anyone would think either character is gay is beyond me! It's obvious from the script the acting and the legend that Arthur is totally besotted with Guinevere. If people think otherwise they must be watching a completely different programme, or listening to another story.
No-one is saying that Merlin and Arthur are "gay" that's way too rigid and anachronistic a term to apply to these characters. People can see their relationship as 'bromance' (uh, I hate that term) or romance if they choose. They're not wrong to do so. Arthur's entitled to another romance once Gwen ditches him...there's nothing to say that romance won't be with Merlin.
Apologies if I offended you, but I really don't buy either of them being gay.
1 - With all due respect, regardless of whether Bradley likes acting with Angel, she is Guinevere who is a HUGE part of the legend of Arthur.
2 - You're also doing Bradley a huge disservice by saying he's wooden when acting with Guinevere. I thought both actors were believable after all he's a future king and she's a serving girl so the whole thing is a big no-no. We saw Uther's reaction when Arthur tried to tell him he was in love with her, so it's understandable why he tried to hide his true feelings for so long.
3 - At the moment I would say that anyone who tells us on numerous occasions that he would give up his throne for another makes it very difficult to assume that he's anything but in love with Guinevere..
4 - The programme is about Merlin therefore unless they make a spin-off programme we won't know what Arthur will do after they find out.
5 - Several posters (who clearly know more about the legends than myself - hence I asked for a book recommendation) have posted in this thread that Merlin isn't around when Lancelot and Guinnivere get together because he has love interest (with a woman :eek: ) of his own.
Nah, you didn't offend me, it's cool.
Like I said "gay" is the wrong word for those characters, neither of them are gay, absolutely.
I like Bradley James just fine, and he's a passable actor most of the time but his romantic scenes with Guinevere are dire. The writers can force the character to say all this 'epic' stuff, "I'd give up my throne blah blah blah" but it doesn't mean Bradley can sell it. He hates the A/G stuff and it kinda shows. I'm not saying Bradley has a say whether Arthur is 'gay' (course not), just that he has WAY more chemistry with Colin than he does with Angel.
Perhaps in the legends Merlin isn't around when Guinevere does her disappearing act, but Merlin and Arthur are the same age in this version so I'm sure he will be. Then nature will take its course between the two of them
Apologies again because I edited my post as the same time as you were writing yours!
I know what you mean about them seeming "wooden" though but, I honestly put it down to the characters fighting their feelings for each other. I do find him more genuine than her but, I think it's because I KNOW that after all he went through to win her hand; she's going to do the dirty on him, with one of his best friends (hussy).
Heh, true. However I cut this version of Guinevere a bit of slack for this. I think she is trying with Arthur, and if Lancelot wasn't around they might just about make it work. Ultimately she's just too physically attracted to Lancelot for her relationship with Arthur to work.
Oh well.
It doesn't help that this shows version of Lancelot is brilliant. Charming, charismatic, intelligent, GORGEOUS. No wonder she can't help herself!
I felt it wasn't really a cliffhanger at all, and would have been a decent series (to use the yank version) finale if needs must. Enough resolved and enough dangling.
As for saying Bradley and Angel are wooden with each other, to be honest, I find them very convincing. I've seen a few things with them just being Bradley and Angel and to me they get on extremely well. I don't see why or how this would translate to them not liking acting together? Those hugs say it all, Bradley always seems to bury his head in Angel's neck/shoulder I know this sounds weird but this to me is the sign of a proper hug!
I feel it is similar to Clark Kent in Smallville who still hasn't become the person we know as Superman.
It's the same with Arthur too, I don't get a sense of the wise person he is meant to become. I doubt he would have been half as bratish as he seems in this series.
I didn't say Bradley and Angel didn't like acting together! Just that they're good friends who don't have 'romantic' chemistry when they try to act it out.
I also didn't say anything about Merlin and Arthur being gay. That's a modern invention and absolutely doesn't fit the time period these characters are living in.
Also, bisexuality - it exists!
Not sure about Merlin's powers progressing or his awareness of hiw own power either. Hmmm...
Laura- please don't take Jenna's ideas as gospel- she is obsessed with one version of the Arthur story and its not the original either. She is convinced that the series will be doing a disservice to the story if Gwen and Arthur love each other and will not see the developing love/ relationship between them. :rolleyes:
If you want to really understand the legends then you need to start earlier than the romantic period and the Morte de Arthur which is when the bit about Lancelot and Gwen was introduced. It was not part of the orginal stories at all. Then you will get a more rounded view of the stories.
For me, and many others on the thread, Bradley and Angel are more than convincing at portraying the love between them and the obsession that there is anything between Merlin and Arthur is laughable- apparently two blokes can't be friends anymore without there being more to it. :mad:
Wow chill out. I can't believe you're actually 'mad' about this! They're obviously not convincing because people wouldn't be shipping anyone but them if they were!
They have a mother/son relationship.
It's the same with any show with two male stars, it doesn't matter how much time they spend discussing/chasing/sleeping with women, someone always comes up with them being 'gay' because they get on with each other (or because they don't) and endless fanfiction is born; Starsky & Hutch, Kirk & Spock, Napoleon & Illya, Smith & Jones, Holmes & Watson, Frodo & Sam etc etc. I don't think there's a single show that hasn't had the characters rewritten by obsessive slash fans. It does get wearing to say the least!:rolleyes:
Mainly because they always have WAY more chemistry with their male co-star. Take it up with the writers what write them that way, or the actors who play them that way.
Jenna: If you think that's a ,mother/ son relationship then you have some issues you need to deal with.
I am perfectly chilled actually but its irritating to read people on here who repeat themselves ad infinitum and insist that its the only way to look at things.
Talma- I know- its ridiculous- and on here it tends to be people who are obsessed with the Gwen/ lancelot dynamic so it helps them reinforce their argument that they 'must' be together. The fact that its all fiction and that its anyones interpretation as the legend has changed with every generation is easily swept under the carpet.
It's clearly a mother/son relationship.
WTF?
The fact that Gwen looks about 40 in some scenes also doesn't help.
Sorry - it does sum it up quite well though
I guess so, I wasn't major frustrated, mind you the most recent cliffhangers I've had to endure 12 month waits for have been Lost, where I've literally been bouncing around the room in frustration. Still, Merlin is much better than Lost - it acutally has a vague plot!! I digress sorry
This is quite out of order :mad:
The problem with that is that there isn't really a single comprehensive source to read from. The Vulgate Cycle concerns part of the myth, Geofrey of Monmoth's Kings of Britain only another part of it, Chretiene Le Troyes looks at Lancelot etc.
Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur is the first comprehensive pulling together of various different legends into one cohesive narrative and so is still, in my opinion anyways, the best place to start from to gain a general knowledge..
For a factual examination of the Arthurian mythology then probably start with Geoffrey Ashe, he wrote what was probably the best of the factual "search for Arthur" books and is probably the best Arthurian scholar still widely available in print.
Where, exactly, has he made it explicitly clear he doesn't like the Arthur/Gwen romance?
Personally I think you're seeing what you want to see. I find their scenes are very tender and their first kiss moment was very romantic.