I imagine Oxford and Cambridge colleges are really interested in one thing, maintaining their position as two of the world's most highly regarded universities and as such they do that by recruiting the brightest and most able students and of course lecturers available to them. Rather than just blaming it on racism the more pertinent questions should be why black students don't do so well in being selected.
Isn't it a bit ironic that (for both white and black candidates) the prime objective of going to Oxbridge SEEMS to be about exploiting perceived advantages of the university NAME over the academic qualities of other universities?
Hell, go to (say) Manchester Uni, as I did - So I "failed" the Cambridge Entrance examination... May have turned out to be an advantage? In our set of 10 students: 2 Afro-Caribbeans, 3 women, 1 public school type, 1 (dirt poor!) comprehensive lad and, two grammar school boy (me!). Quite an achievement for the "bad old 70s"? One might lament the low (below 50%) female proportion, but it was a science subject. And I sense no more women are drawn to science these days...
With increased university entrance numbers, I sense the problem is that now, more than ever (with student fees too!) the universities are now the domain of the moneyed (sic) classes. Typically, that must to be to the advantage of White and Asian populations over Black.
You know what, never mind. Nothing ever racist happens in Britain.
As a black person who lives here, but was brought up in America, Brits are just not as overt with their racism. Thing is, my son was never called a black bastard in the States. He got called one in Glasgow.
I never said racism doesn't exist in the UK. Of course it does.
It cuts both way though I was brought up in Hackney and have been called a white this and white that by black people. It happens. I'm sure it happens in the so-called land of the free as well.
I've also worked in the UK for the past 30 years and have only once seen a black person suffer racial abuse. That was one black woman calling another black woman a coconut.
I have never once seen a black kid being discriminated against or having any less opportunity in the UK state education system.
No one should get special status or be given a place just because they are from a minority That would be discrimination .Everyone is equal or no one is .
Nobody here is saying that someone should be given a place because they're black. Everyone should be encouraged, from the start of education, to live up to their full potential. It's statistically possible that in the years discussed that no black people had the potential to go to Oxford. But I think it's unlikely.
My take on it is that there needs to be some research in order to understand why this is the case. Then there may be some answers, rather than just idle speculation on an internet forum.
People just cant accept they arent good enough academically .There must be another reason :rolleyes:
I think the issue here is not really that. It's why black students don't get selected, or don't get the grades when others do. Loads of black people don't have 'black' names in UK, it can't be selection just by name in every case, like WDIW's research example.What colour is Lenoard Henry for chrissakes:eek: And how would you guess from the name. There is something wrong here, but I very much doubt it's the Oxbridge colleges, who, I am sure, would love to trumpet their liberal credentials with a few more black graduates, but it would hardly be fair to the white and asian applicants to set the bar lower for the black ones, even supposing that there is the problem.
I think the issue here is not really that. It's why black students don't get selected, or don't get the grades when others do. Loads of black people don't have 'black' names in UK, it can't be selection just by name in every case, like WDIW's research example.What colour is Lenoard Henry for chrissakes:eek: And how would you guess from the name. There is something wrong here, but I very much doubt it's the Oxbridge colleges, who, I am sure, would love to trumpet their liberal credentials with a few more black graduates, but it would hardly be fair to the white and asian applicants to set the bar lower for the black ones, even supposing that there is the problem.
You happen to know my real name, and it is not "stereotypically black." So I have had that "look" when I've turned up somewhere and the name didn't fit the face. I even had someone tell me when I went to reception and gave my name, that they weren't expecting the person to look like I did. I asked her exactly what she meant like that and she went very red.
So my name isn't black, but if you looked at my high school, you'd certainly know that I was not white. (I appreciate this is an American example).
It's not about lowering the bar or anything else like that. There are some instutitional and cultural reasons why. I mean, no one from my husband's area probably goes to Oxbridge either. I'm sure there is a dearth of applicants from the East End of Glasgow as well.
The statistic is a bit worrying, I must admit. I mean hell, Ghananians push academia on their children like I've never seen and no kid from a Ghananian background has made it into Oxbridge?
No, I have no idea. You need A* these days, you need 3 of them, you need a CV full of D of E awards, voluntary work, music and drama achievement, and sport does no harm either. My son just went to a lesser, but still red brick uni, was told not to bother with Oxbridge. His IQ is about 135, and he got 3 As, plus general studies as a 4th. Not good enough. He was about halfway down his 6th form achievement list. That's the level this is fought at. If only 35 black students applied, it's hardly surprising to see that none got places, you could take any group of 35 and find the same.
No, I have no idea. You need A* these days, you need 3 of them, you need a CV full of D of E awards, voluntary work, music and drama achievement, and sport does no harm either. My son just went to a lesser, but still red brick uni, was told not to bother with Oxbridge. His IQ is about 135, and he got 3 As, plus general studies as a 4th. Not good enough. He was about halfway down his 6th form achievement list. That's the level this is fought at. If only 35 black students applied, it's hardly surprising to see that none got places, you could take any group of 35 and find the same.
some people know the system better, maybe black families haven't got the right education despite being educated
you seem to be assuming the white one will always be the successful one at an interview...that would need looking into
I'm not assuming anything you mentioned why wouldn't one person get it if they had the same grades as someone else and I mentioned that I thought they had interviews as well - maybe just maybe the black are not being schooled properly in their applications
I'm not assuming anything you mentioned why wouldn't one person get it if they had the same grades as someone else and I mentioned that I thought they had interviews as well - maybe just maybe the black are not being schooled properly in their applications
well you suggested all things being equal, the interview could be the stumbling block for black students, it's not a leap to say you're assuming white applicants are more successful at interviews.
never mind, being schooled in applications should not be the deciding factor as it is clearly culturally biased
well you suggested all things being equal, the interview could be the stumbling block for black students, it's not a leap to say you're assuming white applicants are more successful at interviews.
never mind, being schooled in applications should not be the deciding factor as it is clearly culturally biased
This was proven in the entrance exams given to students for American universities. The only sections not culturally biased are maths and science.
some people know the system better, maybe black families haven't got the right education despite being educated
To me that seems much closer to the truth. Maybe they don't get the support to get the right uni place, or are badly advised? We were well advised, the lad got a really good place for the subject he wanted at a good uni. They were right, Oxbridge was not suitable. It would seem to me that not enough black people are being advised to go for it, though for all the factors we know about, we might not expect the 'right proportion to be right for it. Yet. There are lots of iniciatives and research aimed at rectifying that. As to the actual stats, it must be British blacks it's referring to. There are foreign students there.
Comments
Hell, go to (say) Manchester Uni, as I did - So I "failed" the Cambridge Entrance examination... May have turned out to be an advantage? In our set of 10 students: 2 Afro-Caribbeans, 3 women, 1 public school type, 1 (dirt poor!) comprehensive lad and, two grammar school boy (me!). Quite an achievement for the "bad old 70s"? One might lament the low (below 50%) female proportion, but it was a science subject. And I sense no more women are drawn to science these days...
With increased university entrance numbers, I sense the problem is that now, more than ever (with student fees too!) the universities are now the domain of the moneyed (sic) classes. Typically, that must to be to the advantage of White and Asian populations over Black.
I never said racism doesn't exist in the UK. Of course it does.
It cuts both way though I was brought up in Hackney and have been called a white this and white that by black people. It happens. I'm sure it happens in the so-called land of the free as well.
I've also worked in the UK for the past 30 years and have only once seen a black person suffer racial abuse. That was one black woman calling another black woman a coconut.
I have never once seen a black kid being discriminated against or having any less opportunity in the UK state education system.
Nobody here is saying that someone should be given a place because they're black. Everyone should be encouraged, from the start of education, to live up to their full potential. It's statistically possible that in the years discussed that no black people had the potential to go to Oxford. But I think it's unlikely.
My take on it is that there needs to be some research in order to understand why this is the case. Then there may be some answers, rather than just idle speculation on an internet forum.
if they're getting the same/better grades that others are getting and still not getting any places what other reason can you think of?
I think the issue here is not really that. It's why black students don't get selected, or don't get the grades when others do. Loads of black people don't have 'black' names in UK, it can't be selection just by name in every case, like WDIW's research example.What colour is Lenoard Henry for chrissakes:eek: And how would you guess from the name. There is something wrong here, but I very much doubt it's the Oxbridge colleges, who, I am sure, would love to trumpet their liberal credentials with a few more black graduates, but it would hardly be fair to the white and asian applicants to set the bar lower for the black ones, even supposing that there is the problem.
Who says they are? On average, they very much don't, for all sorts of reasons, class, location, stereotyping etc.
I thought at these sort of places a lot depends on your Interview not just your results
are you saying none get A's?
so? why should that go against them?
well if you have two students with identical results which one would you pick the one that did well at interview stage or the one that didn't
You happen to know my real name, and it is not "stereotypically black." So I have had that "look" when I've turned up somewhere and the name didn't fit the face. I even had someone tell me when I went to reception and gave my name, that they weren't expecting the person to look like I did. I asked her exactly what she meant like that and she went very red.
So my name isn't black, but if you looked at my high school, you'd certainly know that I was not white. (I appreciate this is an American example).
It's not about lowering the bar or anything else like that. There are some instutitional and cultural reasons why. I mean, no one from my husband's area probably goes to Oxbridge either. I'm sure there is a dearth of applicants from the East End of Glasgow as well.
The statistic is a bit worrying, I must admit. I mean hell, Ghananians push academia on their children like I've never seen and no kid from a Ghananian background has made it into Oxbridge?
you seem to be assuming the white one will always be the successful one at an interview...that would need looking into
No, I have no idea. You need A* these days, you need 3 of them, you need a CV full of D of E awards, voluntary work, music and drama achievement, and sport does no harm either. My son just went to a lesser, but still red brick uni, was told not to bother with Oxbridge. His IQ is about 135, and he got 3 As, plus general studies as a 4th. Not good enough. He was about halfway down his 6th form achievement list. That's the level this is fought at. If only 35 black students applied, it's hardly surprising to see that none got places, you could take any group of 35 and find the same.
That's a generalisation.
some people know the system better, maybe black families haven't got the right education despite being educated
I'm not assuming anything you mentioned why wouldn't one person get it if they had the same grades as someone else and I mentioned that I thought they had interviews as well - maybe just maybe the black are not being schooled properly in their applications
He/she did nothing of the sort, you seem to be grasping at straws here.
Pehaps the brutal truth is that the black folk who applied just weren't good enough.
well you suggested all things being equal, the interview could be the stumbling block for black students, it's not a leap to say you're assuming white applicants are more successful at interviews.
never mind, being schooled in applications should not be the deciding factor as it is clearly culturally biased
nonsense
This was proven in the entrance exams given to students for American universities. The only sections not culturally biased are maths and science.
Prove it's nonsense or be quiet.:rolleyes:
you only need an ounce of intelligence to see that's what's going wrong for black applicants who have the grades
this whole assumption of them not being smart enough is just tiresome, ignorant and veiled racism
To me that seems much closer to the truth. Maybe they don't get the support to get the right uni place, or are badly advised? We were well advised, the lad got a really good place for the subject he wanted at a good uni. They were right, Oxbridge was not suitable. It would seem to me that not enough black people are being advised to go for it, though for all the factors we know about, we might not expect the 'right proportion to be right for it. Yet. There are lots of iniciatives and research aimed at rectifying that. As to the actual stats, it must be British blacks it's referring to. There are foreign students there.