All you need.... http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1917/pakistanvsuk.jpg
Come up to some Towns in the Pennines and you will soon find out how much of a hold they have. What is worrying is the harder line attitude many Muslims practice over here and how this harder line of Islam is growing.
So what is it exactly that you're looking to prevent?
You have no idea do you.
When you join the real world let us know. As late8 pointed out, come to the northern towns of england, lancashire specifically and then come back to this topic.
Multiculturalism is not a policy full stop. Its a word that describes what we have in the UK and its not quite acurate becuase its more multi racial than multi cultural.
Those using mulitcultural and moan about it, really are moaning about multi racialness imo and if they where honest have muslims, esp those who originate from pakistan and Bangladesh in their sights the most and are using the word multiculturalism to get round being accused of being racist I reckon.
It's been a policy for decades in Canada, the US, Australia, & the UK. You're right, it partly just describes multi-ethnicity. But Canada was always multi-ethnic, and also the US, but neither country became 'multicultural' until the seventies. It's an innovation. Here's part of a review of a critique of multiculturalism from 1994:
Mr. Bernstein has grasped also that there is something new about the contemporary panic. Multiculturalism has contributed an emphasis to the repertory of American resentments, and that is the vanity of victimhood. It is a fine thing that the oppressed (or their descendants) no longer feel shame about their predicament; but many of them have gone all the way from shame to pride. This, of course, plays right into the hands of their predicament, by promoting it into the foundation for a politics and a culture. Lachrymosity, for individuals and for communities, has became exhilarating. Scars have become signatures; and the prevailing notion of honor requires that scars not heal. Self-reliance is no longer an American characteristic, when the work of one's hands is interpreted as the successful seizure of what one is owed. For many of the angry and animated people whom Mr. Bernstein has visited, there is no advancement, there is only restitution, and the restitution for racial and sexual oppression will never be complete.
Our public life is becoming a brawl of insults. Of course, insulting with impunity used to be one of the distinguishing marks of a democracy; but Mr. Bernstein offers instance after instance of individuals and institutions in America who refuse to suffer what he nicely calls "the normal offenses of everyday life," who would rather tamper with the freedom of others than thicken their own skins. NYT ~ The Trouble With Multiculturalism
I thought I'd try to find an illustration of the above in the UK, and maybe this will do - so this is the beginning of controversy surrounding the golliwog doll in 1982:The Pittsburgh Press - Dolls Stir Racial Storm
How does Islamisation fit into it? I'd say it makes it hard to argue against radical, politicised Islam because it gets confused with 'the rights of Muslims'. So the English Defence League or whoever engage in protest but it's very easy, fashionable even, to charge them with racism.
All you need.... http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1917/pakistanvsuk.jpg
Come up to some Towns in the Pennines and you will soon find out how much of a hold they have. What is worrying is the harder line attitude many Muslims practice over here and how this harder line of Islam is growing.
Sounds like Al-Khapone lives there the way you're describing it.
I've got no intention of checking out the Penines or any other area to find out this apparent grip they have (which sounds very menacing indeed).
In what way would this be an Islamisation? Were you forced into a Burkha?
When you join the real world let us know. As late8 pointed out, come to the northern towns of england, lancashire specifically and then come back to this topic.
Then you can answer the question yourself.
You didn't answer what it is you're trying to prevent? What is this Islamisation exactly? Islamic symbols perhaps? There's plenty of other religious symbols you could also pick out that have increased, along with the Islamic ones. Expand a bit.
If you're going to use the police officer analogy you'd need to know what it is you were trying to prevent. Robberies may all occur at banks, so there wouldn't be much point in patrolling parks.
Look, we all know that no matter what evidence is presented here, even if 90% of the UK population believed it to be evidence of Islamification, you would deny it.
There can be no evidence of Islamification for you, because you simply do not believe there is a problem.
You are so blinded by your PC-Multiculturalism mantras that nothing will ever get through to you.
You didn't answer what it is you're trying to prevent? What is this Islamisation exactly? Islamic symbols perhaps? There's plenty of other religious symbols you could also pick out that have increased, along with the Islamic ones. Expand a bit.
If you're going to use the police officer analogy you'd need to know what it is you were trying to prevent. Robberies may all occur at banks, so there wouldn't be much point in patrolling parks.
I used the police to show how it can be a good thing to attempt to prevent something before it happens. Of course by doing so you remove the actual event and therefore people can question whether there was in fact any threat in the first place.
At the minute the signs are very wide spread, in some places its more obvious than others. It is also not a bad thing in many cases but there are many examples where it is indeed a bad thing. These range from bringing old battles over from the old country to not wanting to integrate.
Look, we all know that no matter what evidence is presented here, even if 90% of the UK population believed it to be evidence of Islamification, you would deny it.
It's difficult to deny something that is true with rational reasons. The floor is yours.
There can be no evidence of Islamification for you, because you simply do not believe there is a problem.
You are so blinded by your PC-Multiculturalism mantras that nothing will ever get through to you.
If Islamification was occurring, specifically an exceptional form of it, then I suppose I would consider it a problem.
Islamist terrorism is still perceived as the biggest threat to most Member States, despite the fact that only one Islamist terrorist attack - a bomb attack in Italy - took place in the EU in 2009.
Islamist terrorists have threatened EU Member States with perpetrating attacks aiming at indiscriminate mass casualties.
The number of arrests relating to Islamist terrorism (110) decreased by 41 % compared to 2008, which continues the trend of a steady decrease since 2006.
The threat emanating from Islamist terrorism inside the EU is influenced, to a certain extent, by developments in conflict zones and politically unstable countries such as Afghanistan, the Afghanistan/Pakistan border area, Iraq, Somalia and Yemen.
EU TERRORISM SITUATION AND TREND REPORT - EUROPOL 2010
It's difficult to deny something that is true with rational reasons. The floor is yours.
If Islamification was occurring, specifically an exceptional form of it, then I suppose I would consider it a problem.
Just give me the list. I don't have all night.
btw I'm not that much of a multiculturalist.
OK, lets try the rationale approach.
Do you accept that for some people, even if not yourself, there is a problem with something (as yet in this discussion undefined) popularly referred to "Islamification"?
If you answer No to this then we can't really progress in any way can we?
I used the police to show how it can be a good thing to attempt to prevent something before it happens. Of course by doing so you remove the actual event and therefore people can question whether there was in fact any threat in the first place.
it might be a good idea to dig a massive crater and hide yourself in it, just in case an asteroid hits. But the probability of this is fairly low, as is the probability of Islamisation. Or you could worry about realistic changes that may occur to the detriment of society.
At the minute the signs are very wide spread, in some places its more obvious than others. It is also not a bad thing in many cases but there are many examples where it is indeed a bad thing. These range from bringing old battles over from the old country to not wanting to integrate.
So the signs of Islamisation are very widespread. It should be easy to write out some of the evidence for Islamisation of the UK.
Look, we all know that no matter what evidence is presented here, even if 90% of the UK population believed it to be evidence of Islamification, you would deny it.
There can be no evidence of Islamification for you, because you simply do not believe there is a problem.
You are so blinded by your PC-Multiculturalism mantras that nothing will ever get through to you.
Isnt part of the problem that no two people will agree on what Islamification actually means ? I live is a town with a large Islamic population, I go to football on Saturday, I drink in the bars and pretty much go about my life as I want. Islamifictaion of Luton is, in my experience, pretty much not there in my experience but I woulnt dare to say I represent a majority. If, however, I wanted to find example of the town changing i can, a ruddy huge mosque is one example but is that the same as Islamification ?. So what do we mean by Islamfication ? It easy for you to say oh well its there and anyone who says different is wrong but what "is" there ? Its a simple question is it not ? How has Islam changed, for example, what you can or cannot do ?
I dont think people are trying to be deliberatly obtuse but if Islamiifcation is that obvious then it should be easy to point out examples should it not ? Even if you do list the examples and people still refuse to admit it at least you have offer up some examples havent you ?
Islamist terrorism is still perceived as the biggest threat to most Member States, despite the fact that only one Islamist terrorist attack - a bomb attack in Italy - took place in the EU in 2009.
Islamist terrorists have threatened EU Member States with perpetrating attacks aiming at indiscriminate mass casualties.
The number of arrests relating to Islamist terrorism (110) decreased by 41 % compared to 2008, which continues the trend of a steady decrease since 2006.
The threat emanating from Islamist terrorism inside the EU is influenced, to a certain extent, by developments in conflict zones and politically unstable countries such as Afghanistan, the Afghanistan/Pakistan border area, Iraq, Somalia and Yemen.
EU TERRORISM SITUATION AND TREND REPORT - EUROPOL 2010
Good intelligence is keeping us relatively safe from the excesses of the religion of "peace and love."
and the same exagerrations exist in the usa concerning muslim terrorism -
official FBI records were reviewed and it was determined that–contrary to public perception–only 6% of terrorist attacks on U.S. soil from 1980 to 2005 were committed by "jihadists".
a study released by Duke University and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill that concluded that “the terrorist threat posed by radicalized Muslim-Americans has been exaggerated.”
the RAND Corporation has released a report that confirms that the threat of "jihadist" terrorism in the United States has been heavily exaggerated. The report documents and analyzes acts of terrorism in the U.S. from 9/11 to the end of 2009.
[Of the] 83 terrorist attacks in the United States between 9/11 and the end of 2009, only three…were clearly connected with the jihadist cause. (The RAND database includes Abdulmutallab’s failed Christmas Day attempt to detonate a bomb on an airplane.) The other jihadist plots were interrupted by authorities.
Fifty of the 83 terrorist attacks were committed by environmental extremists and animal rights fanatics, “which account for most of the violence.” Five civilians were killed by the anthrax letters.
The report declares that “the 1970s saw greater terrorist violence” than nowadays, yet most Americans today perceive terrorism to be a radically new and emergent existential threat. It is the perception of terrorism, not terrorism itself, that is greater than previous decades.
On the FBI’s official website, there exists a chronological list of all terrorist attacks committed on U.S. soil from the year 1980 all the way to 2005
According to this data, there were more Jewish acts of terrorism within the United States than Islamic (7% vs 6%). These radical Jews committed acts of terrorism in the name of their religion. .
it might be a good idea to dig a massive crater and hide yourself in it, just in case an asteroid hits. But the probability of this is fairly low, as is the probability of Islamisation. Or you could worry about realistic changes that may occur to the detriment of society.
So the signs of Islamisation are very widespread. It should be easy to write out some of the evidence for Islamisation of the UK.
Sorry, didnt mean wide spread as in all over the country. Should of said very scattered really. Sorry about that.
Some places there is no sign what so ever. Others its more obvious.
Do you accept that for some people, even if not yourself, there is a problem with something (as yet in this discussion undefined) popularly referred to "Islamification"?
If you answer No to this then we can't really progress in any way can we?
If you answer yes we have grounds to continue.
Yes (qualification: it's been used predominantly by those who seem to lean towards the right, which might just be a coincidence, or something deeper). Noone seems to know what an earth it is though. And your definition of this dreaded Islamification would be?
Yes (qualification: it's been used predominantly by those who seem to lean towards the right, which might just be a coincidence, or something deeper). Noone seems to know what an earth it is though. And your definition of this dreaded Islamification would be?
Its pretty obvious what it is, the increase in British national life of Islamic things.
How many Islamic terrorist acts have been thwarted in the UK?
Please let us know.
Its hard to say exactly for many reasons but my Uncle, who at the time was a Sgt in Lancashire police force said they made arrests under the terror act numerous times daily. Many never got to court and they were released. The way the police now work is less of a free for all these days though.
Yes (qualification: it's been used predominantly by those who seem to lean towards the right, which might just be a coincidence, or something deeper). Noone seems to know what an earth it is though.
And your definition of this dreaded Islamification would be?
Don't know yet; that is surely what this discussion is really about.
Lets continue.
From the "ification" part we can probably assume that the process, if it exists, refers to some kind of change or renewal - as in Ossification.
There is no significant Islamic cultural impact in Britain in any way prior to the last 100 years or so; despite the attempts of pernicious revisionist to suggest otherwise.
In fact in the terms I think it is most often used I think we should really us the US term of Islamization, because I believe it refers exclusively to a process of change and not one of renewal.
So, my nest question is this.
If the process of Islamification does exist are you happy to continue on the understanding that it refers to a process of change?
Sounds like Al-Khapone lives there the way you're describing it.
I've got no intention of checking out the Penines or any other area to find out this apparent grip they have (which sounds very menacing indeed).
In what way would this be an Islamisation? Were you forced into a Burkha?
I consider it Islamification when you walk down or drive down a street where you feel like a stranger in your own country. When cultures don't integrate.
There's the little things where street names are changed, everything has to be written out in Arabic first, schools are segregated and communities are ghettos. Mosques line the ends of traditional terraced streets- The Architectural style has no sympathy for the surrounding environment looking like something straight out of the Middle East.
But then there's the concerning things. Radicalisation grows where communities become self created ghettos. You get protests against Western states or ideals and blatant radicals preaching on the street and cropping up on TV.
When your local paper board frequently has "x arrested on terrorism charges" you know something has gone wrong.
I live in the Ribble Valley which is a complete difference to these towns- what's very noticeable is White flight into the area. There's lots of pressure on housing from people rich enough to move out of Burnley and Blackburn.
Many who shoot others down for saying things as it is or even daring to bring up the idea there's a problem don't see these things happening day to day. The upraise of Right Wing groups in these areas is a vile but understandable reaction to this.
I consider it Islamification when you walk down or drive down a street where you feel like a stranger in your own country. When cultures don't integrate.
There's the little things where street names are changed, everything has to be written out in Arabic first, schools are segregated and communities are ghettos. Mosques line the ends of traditional terraced streets- The Architectural style has no sympathy for the surrounding environment looking like something straight out of the Middle East.
But then there's the concerning things. Radicalisation grows where communities become self created ghettos. You get protests against Western states or ideals and blatant radicals preaching on the street and cropping up on TV.
When your local paper board frequently has "x arrested on terrorism charges" you know something has gone wrong.
I live in the Ribble Valley which is a complete difference to these towns- what's very noticeable is White flight into the area. There's lots of pressure on housing from people rich enough to move out of Burnley and Blackburn.
Many who shoot others down for saying things as it is or even daring to bring up the idea there's a problem don't see these things happening day to day. The upraise of Right Wing groups in these areas is a vile but understandable reaction to this.
At last, someone defining what it means. In the cases you outlined I think you have valid reason to be concerned, I think I would if that happend in my street. The sentance in bold is very relevant as well.
Comments
So what is it exactly that you're looking to prevent?
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1917/pakistanvsuk.jpg
Come up to some Towns in the Pennines and you will soon find out how much of a hold they have. What is worrying is the harder line attitude many Muslims practice over here and how this harder line of Islam is growing.
You have no idea do you.
When you join the real world let us know. As late8 pointed out, come to the northern towns of england, lancashire specifically and then come back to this topic.
Then you can answer the question yourself.
Our public life is becoming a brawl of insults. Of course, insulting with impunity used to be one of the distinguishing marks of a democracy; but Mr. Bernstein offers instance after instance of individuals and institutions in America who refuse to suffer what he nicely calls "the normal offenses of everyday life," who would rather tamper with the freedom of others than thicken their own skins.
NYT ~ The Trouble With Multiculturalism
I thought I'd try to find an illustration of the above in the UK, and maybe this will do - so this is the beginning of controversy surrounding the golliwog doll in 1982:The Pittsburgh Press - Dolls Stir Racial Storm
More recently you have the saga between Katie Price & Frankie Boyle.
How does Islamisation fit into it? I'd say it makes it hard to argue against radical, politicised Islam because it gets confused with 'the rights of Muslims'. So the English Defence League or whoever engage in protest but it's very easy, fashionable even, to charge them with racism.
Sounds like Al-Khapone lives there the way you're describing it.
I've got no intention of checking out the Penines or any other area to find out this apparent grip they have (which sounds very menacing indeed).
In what way would this be an Islamisation? Were you forced into a Burkha?
You didn't answer what it is you're trying to prevent? What is this Islamisation exactly? Islamic symbols perhaps? There's plenty of other religious symbols you could also pick out that have increased, along with the Islamic ones. Expand a bit.
If you're going to use the police officer analogy you'd need to know what it is you were trying to prevent. Robberies may all occur at banks, so there wouldn't be much point in patrolling parks.
Look, we all know that no matter what evidence is presented here, even if 90% of the UK population believed it to be evidence of Islamification, you would deny it.
There can be no evidence of Islamification for you, because you simply do not believe there is a problem.
You are so blinded by your PC-Multiculturalism mantras that nothing will ever get through to you.
I used the police to show how it can be a good thing to attempt to prevent something before it happens. Of course by doing so you remove the actual event and therefore people can question whether there was in fact any threat in the first place.
At the minute the signs are very wide spread, in some places its more obvious than others. It is also not a bad thing in many cases but there are many examples where it is indeed a bad thing. These range from bringing old battles over from the old country to not wanting to integrate.
It's difficult to deny something that is true with rational reasons. The floor is yours.
If Islamification was occurring, specifically an exceptional form of it, then I suppose I would consider it a problem.
Just give me the list. I don't have all night.
btw I'm not that much of a multiculturalist.
also for your benefit:
Islamist terrorism is still perceived as the biggest threat to most Member States, despite the fact that only one Islamist terrorist attack - a bomb attack in Italy - took place in the EU in 2009.
Islamist terrorists have threatened EU Member States with perpetrating attacks aiming at indiscriminate mass casualties.
The number of arrests relating to Islamist terrorism (110) decreased by 41 % compared to 2008, which continues the trend of a steady decrease since 2006.
The threat emanating from Islamist terrorism inside the EU is influenced, to a certain extent, by developments in conflict zones and politically unstable countries such as Afghanistan, the Afghanistan/Pakistan border area, Iraq, Somalia and Yemen.
EU TERRORISM SITUATION AND TREND REPORT - EUROPOL 2010
OK, lets try the rationale approach.
Do you accept that for some people, even if not yourself, there is a problem with something (as yet in this discussion undefined) popularly referred to "Islamification"?
If you answer No to this then we can't really progress in any way can we?
If you answer yes we have grounds to continue.
it might be a good idea to dig a massive crater and hide yourself in it, just in case an asteroid hits. But the probability of this is fairly low, as is the probability of Islamisation. Or you could worry about realistic changes that may occur to the detriment of society.
So the signs of Islamisation are very widespread. It should be easy to write out some of the evidence for Islamisation of the UK.
Isnt part of the problem that no two people will agree on what Islamification actually means ? I live is a town with a large Islamic population, I go to football on Saturday, I drink in the bars and pretty much go about my life as I want. Islamifictaion of Luton is, in my experience, pretty much not there in my experience but I woulnt dare to say I represent a majority. If, however, I wanted to find example of the town changing i can, a ruddy huge mosque is one example but is that the same as Islamification ?. So what do we mean by Islamfication ? It easy for you to say oh well its there and anyone who says different is wrong but what "is" there ? Its a simple question is it not ? How has Islam changed, for example, what you can or cannot do ?
I dont think people are trying to be deliberatly obtuse but if Islamiifcation is that obvious then it should be easy to point out examples should it not ? Even if you do list the examples and people still refuse to admit it at least you have offer up some examples havent you ?
Good intelligence is keeping us relatively safe from the excesses of the religion of "peace and love."
official FBI records were reviewed and it was determined that–contrary to public perception–only 6% of terrorist attacks on U.S. soil from 1980 to 2005 were committed by "jihadists".
a study released by Duke University and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill that concluded that “the terrorist threat posed by radicalized Muslim-Americans has been exaggerated.”
the RAND Corporation has released a report that confirms that the threat of "jihadist" terrorism in the United States has been heavily exaggerated. The report documents and analyzes acts of terrorism in the U.S. from 9/11 to the end of 2009.
[Of the] 83 terrorist attacks in the United States between 9/11 and the end of 2009, only three…were clearly connected with the jihadist cause. (The RAND database includes Abdulmutallab’s failed Christmas Day attempt to detonate a bomb on an airplane.) The other jihadist plots were interrupted by authorities.
Fifty of the 83 terrorist attacks were committed by environmental extremists and animal rights fanatics, “which account for most of the violence.” Five civilians were killed by the anthrax letters.
The report declares that “the 1970s saw greater terrorist violence” than nowadays, yet most Americans today perceive terrorism to be a radically new and emergent existential threat. It is the perception of terrorism, not terrorism itself, that is greater than previous decades.
On the FBI’s official website, there exists a chronological list of all terrorist attacks committed on U.S. soil from the year 1980 all the way to 2005
According to this data, there were more Jewish acts of terrorism within the United States than Islamic (7% vs 6%). These radical Jews committed acts of terrorism in the name of their religion. .
so when the facts dont meet the ideology then why not create a new myth to rally around.
Sorry, didnt mean wide spread as in all over the country. Should of said very scattered really. Sorry about that.
Some places there is no sign what so ever. Others its more obvious.
Its not a myth. Maybe you should see if you can find out how much the police are spending on trying to prevent terrorism.
I mean what good is combating terrorism if all you do is clean up the aftermath?
Yes (qualification: it's been used predominantly by those who seem to lean towards the right, which might just be a coincidence, or something deeper). Noone seems to know what an earth it is though. And your definition of this dreaded Islamification would be?
How many Islamic terrorist acts have been thwarted in the UK?
Please let us know.
Its pretty obvious what it is, the increase in British national life of Islamic things.
Its hard to say exactly for many reasons but my Uncle, who at the time was a Sgt in Lancashire police force said they made arrests under the terror act numerous times daily. Many never got to court and they were released. The way the police now work is less of a free for all these days though.
Ok.
Don't know yet; that is surely what this discussion is really about.
Lets continue.
From the "ification" part we can probably assume that the process, if it exists, refers to some kind of change or renewal - as in Ossification.
There is no significant Islamic cultural impact in Britain in any way prior to the last 100 years or so; despite the attempts of pernicious revisionist to suggest otherwise.
In fact in the terms I think it is most often used I think we should really us the US term of Islamization, because I believe it refers exclusively to a process of change and not one of renewal.
So, my nest question is this.
If the process of Islamification does exist are you happy to continue on the understanding that it refers to a process of change?
I consider it Islamification when you walk down or drive down a street where you feel like a stranger in your own country. When cultures don't integrate.
There's the little things where street names are changed, everything has to be written out in Arabic first, schools are segregated and communities are ghettos. Mosques line the ends of traditional terraced streets- The Architectural style has no sympathy for the surrounding environment looking like something straight out of the Middle East.
But then there's the concerning things. Radicalisation grows where communities become self created ghettos. You get protests against Western states or ideals and blatant radicals preaching on the street and cropping up on TV.
When your local paper board frequently has "x arrested on terrorism charges" you know something has gone wrong.
I live in the Ribble Valley which is a complete difference to these towns- what's very noticeable is White flight into the area. There's lots of pressure on housing from people rich enough to move out of Burnley and Blackburn.
Many who shoot others down for saying things as it is or even daring to bring up the idea there's a problem don't see these things happening day to day. The upraise of Right Wing groups in these areas is a vile but understandable reaction to this.
At last, someone defining what it means. In the cases you outlined I think you have valid reason to be concerned, I think I would if that happend in my street. The sentance in bold is very relevant as well.