Selkirk doesn't provide an English ITV region, it provides Border (which is a franchise that covers part of Scotland and part of England) and always has done.
-rapido
It still supplies ITV1 to its population and not stv as I said like an English ITV region. The reason this is surprising is because now DSO has completed in Border one might expect ITV and the BBC to have similar policies as both BBC A and D3&4 muxes have identical coverage. Before DSO the BBC used another transmitter so the differences could be understood if not accepted. Selkirk uniquely out of all the Border transmitter groups is configured like this, with BBC A and SDN showing the Scottish variants with D3&4 on English output. Elsewhere in Border, except Caldbeck Scotland, which is not really Border, all transmitters carry English variants. This is why DMOL have a separate listing for Selkirk and it hasn't been going on for ever, it has just begun.
Ray is right in that Selkirk is treated differently to the rest of Scotland. From an ITV point of view, the service is the same as England, broadcasting ITV1 Tyne Tees Border with news from Gateshead (Border is no longer a standalone region, Border Scotland no longer exists, consequently from Caldbeck there is just ITV TTB duplicated on two multiplexes on UHF 28 and 24).
As Selkirk is ITV Plc territory you would expect ITV Preview 1 to be available there as well as the rest of the Tyne Tees Border region.
DMOL accurately split Scotland into Scotland and Selkirk for this reason, with Selkirk being in Scotland for the purposes of all multiplexes except Mux 2, which is technically "England", with ITV1 TTB inserted from the Northern Transmission Centre in Leeds, with regional news from Gateshead.
Clearly the current issue has occured because Mux A is not regionalised in line with the ITV Plc regions. All England & Wales based SDN transmitters carry ITV Preview 1, but Selkirk cannot change from the Scotland to the England feed provided to other ITV TTB viewers (including Caldbeck viewers in Dumfries) because of Tele G.
Once Tele G leaves SDN, the SDN multiplex from Selkirk could easily switch to the England feed, so that all ITV Plc services on DTT that are not broadcast to STV/UTV/Channel are still distributed to all viewers living in ITV Plc regions that receive the 6 Mux DTT service.
Because of the issue with regionalisation on Mux A, I would be very surprised if ITV1+1 actually appeared on Mux A, rather I would expect the channel to appear on Mux 2 in England, Wales and Southern Scotland, with ITV2+1 or another ITV Plc service swapping to Mux A. Hence the importance of Mux A at Selkirk being re-engineered to be aligned with the ITV Plc regions in England.
To muddy the waters further, the ITV1+1 service you might expect in the future for Selkirk is ITV1+1 Granada Border and not ITV1+1 Yorkshire Tyne Tees (the ITV1+1 regions being different to the main ITV regions).
I would agree, but I don't think the situation with Selkirk is that complicated. It's an ITV plc region within Scotland, so gets the Scotland multiplexes with ITV1.
Caldbeck Scotland is more bizarre - as Caldbeck broadcasts both England and Scotland PSB muxes, but only England COM muxes, you get all the channels same as Selkirk, but ITV Preview 1 instead of TeleG (as mux A is the England version)
The point is why is Selkirk in Scotland an ITV region? It should obviously be STV land by terrain coverage and matching BBC Scotland region. Caldbeck is a temporary aberration. When BBC Alba starts up on Freeview, on BBC A or D3&4, and Tele-G terminates, the SDN mux will be identical in England & Scotland. Only SDN Wales has significant differences and I believe it too will eventually become the same as SDN everywhere else.
The only query is what the hell is ITV doing with ITV Preview 1? Surely they're not going to leave ITV2+1 on Mux 2 in Scotland & Northern Ireland temporarily and move it to ITV Preview 1 in England & Wales? The trouble is that with ITV, they could actually do that.
I would agree, but I don't think the situation with Selkirk is that complicated. It's an ITV plc region within Scotland, so gets the Scotland multiplexes with ITV1.
Caldbeck Scotland is more bizarre - as Caldbeck broadcasts both England and Scotland PSB muxes, but only England COM muxes, you get all the channels same as Selkirk, but ITV Preview 1 instead of TeleG (as mux A is the England version)
Theoretically correct, but unless ITV Plc restart Border Scotland and until BBC One HD Scotland launches both Mux 2 and Mux BBC-B/HD are the same as England at Caldbeck Scotland and Selkirk.
If you mean ITV plc, then the reason is that Selkirk takes Border which is part of ITV1.
It was never "obviously" anything to do with STV and has always been part of Border's franchise since it started in 1961.
The name "Border" rather gives a clue that it was designed to cover the area near the border (i.e. parts of both England and Scotland).
Also the regions designed by the ITA had little to do with BBC regions.
-rapido
I was looking at the Wiki entry for Border and it says that STV wanted Selkirk from the beginning but it got lumped into the same region as the IOM and Cumbria. What I am saying is that IMHO STV have an even better case now, to be allocated Selkirk & Caldbeck Scotland, and of course it should be up to the local viewers to decide. I expect with the lack of STV HD on satellite, most viewers are happy to get ITV1 instead.
I am not certain of the detailed configuration of the D3&4 mux on Caldbeck Scotland. Presumably it is different from Selkirk or it would be mentioned separately by DMOL.
By the way, the Scottish Borders are in Scotland, and there are no "English" Borders recognised as such. Just Cumbria previously Northumberland.
Caldbeck England is clearly a defined English region.
ITV Preview 1 has dissappeared from Divis in N. Ire today. Is this just my set-up or can anyone else confirm this? All other channels still there and in the order I put them, there's just a gap before ITV 2 now where ITV Preview 1 was...
ITV Preview 1 has dissappeared from Divis in N. Ire today. Is this just my set-up or can anyone else confirm this? All other channels still there and in the order I put them, there's just a gap before ITV 2 now where ITV Preview 1 was...
Yep, definitely gone here after a retune Paddy (the place holder was still there but the screen saver had gone)
Wonder if it has anything to do with the article in the Irish News today re. RTE coming onto Freeview in 2011 ?
Yep, definitely gone here after a retune Paddy (the place holder was still there but the screen saver had gone)
Wonder if it has anything to do with the article in the Irish News today re. RTE coming onto Freeview in 2011 ?
Nope its been gone ages you would have lost it if you had done a re tune ages ago, the reason its been regionalized is because the off air graphic advertises itv1+1 and Northern island and scotland are not getting it.
I still have itv preview 1 here and with off air graphic advertising itv+1 in england which proves its regionalized.
By the way, the Scottish Borders are in Scotland, and there are no "English" Borders recognised as such. Just Cumbria previously Northumberland.
I never said there was a region called the "English Borders" I said: "it was designed to cover the area near the border". Note the difference.
However those in the Border region receive Border (unsurprisingly) and not "English" ITV1, whatever that is. Border is designed to cover parts of both England and Scotland.
As for STV having a case to take over Border, or taking over the franchise, well that's another matter. I doubt much will come of it, because it's the least profitable region - plus franchise areas, transmission coverage and political boundaries do not all correspond.
I never said there was a region called the "English Borders" I said: "it was designed to cover the area near the border". Note the difference.
However those in the Border region receive Border (unsurprisingly) and not "English" ITV1, whatever that is. Border is designed to cover parts of both England and Scotland.
As for STV having a case to take over Border, or taking over the franchise, well that's another matter. I doubt much will come of it, because it's the least profitable region - plus franchise areas, transmission coverage and political boundaries do not all correspond.
-rapido
If you had been following the discussion you would realise that ITV do not supply a Scottish service for the Scottish parts of the Border region; it is the same ITV service as the rest of the TT/Border region since Ofcon allowed ITV to reduce its regions. It is just an English only service. That is despite Caldbeck having a separate Scottish TX but it has no separate service as it was designed for. That is also why STV are sniffing around because they can make better use of it. So although you state that Border "is designed to cover parts of both England and Scotland", in practice that is not happening. The Scottish borders are just getting an English service. The whole discussion revolves around the changes to the Border region since DSO. The IOM has migrated to Granada and ITV has reduced their regional output. The area is so small that it is probably unviable as a region. I reckon STV will be allocated Selkirk and Caldbeck Scotland with Caldbeck England added to Tyne Tees. I expect something will come of this politically but the local population may prefer ITV to STV.
If you had been following the discussion you would realise that ITV do not supply a Scottish service for the Scottish parts of the Border region; it is the same ITV service as the rest of the TT/Border region since Ofcon allowed ITV to reduce its regions. It is just an English only service.
Very nice, I have been following the discussion, and yes I know that Border doesn't provide a separate service for the Scottish part of their region.
You've obviously never watched any Border; if you did then you would know that they do have a different programme to Tyne Tees, it's called Lookaround. (It's only the daytime bulletins that are "Tyne Tees & Border").
Also you would know that Lookaround covers both sides of the border, both English and Scottish parts. And so do "Tyne Tees & Border" bulletins.
Very nice, I have been following the discussion, and yes I know that Border doesn't provide a separate service for the Scottish part of their region.
You've obviously never watched any Border; if you did then you would know that they do have a different programme to Tyne Tees, it's called Lookaround. (It's only the daytime bulletins that are "Tyne Tees & Border").
Also you would know that Lookaround covers both sides of the border, both English and Scottish parts. And so do "Tyne Tees & Border" bulletins.
Hardly an "English only service".
-rapido
The final edition of Lookaround as a stand-alone regional news magazine broadcast live from Carlisle and for the Border Television region was transmitted on 24 February 2009. The following day, an 18 minute bulletin for the same region was recorded for broadcast in Gateshead as part of a combined evening news magazine with viewers in the Tyne Tees region.
The Border name may live on in the name of pan-regional news bulletins, but the loss of a discrete Lookaround studio and the sale of the Border Television studios in Harraby means, for many people, the end of 48 years as the broadcaster and regional contractor for the part of the British Isles that spanned national frontiers and incorporated an island outside of the United Kingdom. The ITV company which truly crossed borders and survived against the odds ironically became a victim of the perceived needs of the network it always strived to be a greater part of
What, your misinterpretation of someone's opinion on a broadcasting fansite is fact then? (Neither Scotland nor England are even mentioned in the quote you provide, which makes your assertion even more bemusing).
What makes it "an English only service" to you then? The fact that it's based in a studio in England?
I would guess you also consider the Six O'Clock News, Channel 4 News and News At Ten as being "English only services" on the same basis.
You said Border "do have a different programme to Tyne Tees, it's called Lookaround."
It's not different because at least half of it is identical. Assuming that the Border part of the bulletin contains 50% Scottish news, then it clearly is a 75% English bulletin. Where I come from, the majority rules.
Comments
It still supplies ITV1 to its population and not stv as I said like an English ITV region. The reason this is surprising is because now DSO has completed in Border one might expect ITV and the BBC to have similar policies as both BBC A and D3&4 muxes have identical coverage. Before DSO the BBC used another transmitter so the differences could be understood if not accepted. Selkirk uniquely out of all the Border transmitter groups is configured like this, with BBC A and SDN showing the Scottish variants with D3&4 on English output. Elsewhere in Border, except Caldbeck Scotland, which is not really Border, all transmitters carry English variants. This is why DMOL have a separate listing for Selkirk and it hasn't been going on for ever, it has just begun.
That's because the Scottish or Grampian franchises don't cover the area.
Border is however specifically designed as a joint Scottish/English region (and this includes Caldbeck by the way).
ITV franchise areas are not based on political boundaries.
-rapido
Ray is right in that Selkirk is treated differently to the rest of Scotland. From an ITV point of view, the service is the same as England, broadcasting ITV1 Tyne Tees Border with news from Gateshead (Border is no longer a standalone region, Border Scotland no longer exists, consequently from Caldbeck there is just ITV TTB duplicated on two multiplexes on UHF 28 and 24).
As Selkirk is ITV Plc territory you would expect ITV Preview 1 to be available there as well as the rest of the Tyne Tees Border region.
DMOL accurately split Scotland into Scotland and Selkirk for this reason, with Selkirk being in Scotland for the purposes of all multiplexes except Mux 2, which is technically "England", with ITV1 TTB inserted from the Northern Transmission Centre in Leeds, with regional news from Gateshead.
Clearly the current issue has occured because Mux A is not regionalised in line with the ITV Plc regions. All England & Wales based SDN transmitters carry ITV Preview 1, but Selkirk cannot change from the Scotland to the England feed provided to other ITV TTB viewers (including Caldbeck viewers in Dumfries) because of Tele G.
Once Tele G leaves SDN, the SDN multiplex from Selkirk could easily switch to the England feed, so that all ITV Plc services on DTT that are not broadcast to STV/UTV/Channel are still distributed to all viewers living in ITV Plc regions that receive the 6 Mux DTT service.
Because of the issue with regionalisation on Mux A, I would be very surprised if ITV1+1 actually appeared on Mux A, rather I would expect the channel to appear on Mux 2 in England, Wales and Southern Scotland, with ITV2+1 or another ITV Plc service swapping to Mux A. Hence the importance of Mux A at Selkirk being re-engineered to be aligned with the ITV Plc regions in England.
To muddy the waters further, the ITV1+1 service you might expect in the future for Selkirk is ITV1+1 Granada Border and not ITV1+1 Yorkshire Tyne Tees (the ITV1+1 regions being different to the main ITV regions).
I would agree, but I don't think the situation with Selkirk is that complicated. It's an ITV plc region within Scotland, so gets the Scotland multiplexes with ITV1.
Caldbeck Scotland is more bizarre - as Caldbeck broadcasts both England and Scotland PSB muxes, but only England COM muxes, you get all the channels same as Selkirk, but ITV Preview 1 instead of TeleG (as mux A is the England version)
The only query is what the hell is ITV doing with ITV Preview 1? Surely they're not going to leave ITV2+1 on Mux 2 in Scotland & Northern Ireland temporarily and move it to ITV Preview 1 in England & Wales? The trouble is that with ITV, they could actually do that.
If you mean ITV plc, then the reason is that Selkirk takes Border which is part of ITV1.
It was never "obviously" anything to do with STV and has always been part of Border's franchise since it started in 1961.
The name "Border" rather gives a clue that it was designed to cover the area near the border (i.e. parts of both England and Scotland).
Also the regions designed by the ITA had little to do with BBC regions.
-rapido
Theoretically correct, but unless ITV Plc restart Border Scotland and until BBC One HD Scotland launches both Mux 2 and Mux BBC-B/HD are the same as England at Caldbeck Scotland and Selkirk.
I was looking at the Wiki entry for Border and it says that STV wanted Selkirk from the beginning but it got lumped into the same region as the IOM and Cumbria. What I am saying is that IMHO STV have an even better case now, to be allocated Selkirk & Caldbeck Scotland, and of course it should be up to the local viewers to decide. I expect with the lack of STV HD on satellite, most viewers are happy to get ITV1 instead.
I am not certain of the detailed configuration of the D3&4 mux on Caldbeck Scotland. Presumably it is different from Selkirk or it would be mentioned separately by DMOL.
By the way, the Scottish Borders are in Scotland, and there are no "English" Borders recognised as such. Just Cumbria previously Northumberland.
Caldbeck England is clearly a defined English region.
http://www.overnights.tv/public/content/News.aspx
But not on ITV Preview 1
Clearly not but this channel has ITV1+1 coming soon on the off air graphic so my post has relevance here.
ITV preview 1 is more then likely a placeholder for a mux A version of ITV2
I am aware ITV 1+1 will have to be on mux 2 so it can be regionalized.
I still cant get over people in scotland and Northern island thought they where getting ITV1+1:D:D
Yep, definitely gone here after a retune Paddy (the place holder was still there but the screen saver had gone)
Wonder if it has anything to do with the article in the Irish News today re. RTE coming onto Freeview in 2011 ?
Nope its been gone ages you would have lost it if you had done a re tune ages ago, the reason its been regionalized is because the off air graphic advertises itv1+1 and Northern island and scotland are not getting it.
I still have itv preview 1 here and with off air graphic advertising itv+1 in england which proves its regionalized.
I never said there was a region called the "English Borders" I said: "it was designed to cover the area near the border". Note the difference.
However those in the Border region receive Border (unsurprisingly) and not "English" ITV1, whatever that is. Border is designed to cover parts of both England and Scotland.
As for STV having a case to take over Border, or taking over the franchise, well that's another matter. I doubt much will come of it, because it's the least profitable region - plus franchise areas, transmission coverage and political boundaries do not all correspond.
-rapido
If you had been following the discussion you would realise that ITV do not supply a Scottish service for the Scottish parts of the Border region; it is the same ITV service as the rest of the TT/Border region since Ofcon allowed ITV to reduce its regions. It is just an English only service. That is despite Caldbeck having a separate Scottish TX but it has no separate service as it was designed for. That is also why STV are sniffing around because they can make better use of it. So although you state that Border "is designed to cover parts of both England and Scotland", in practice that is not happening. The Scottish borders are just getting an English service. The whole discussion revolves around the changes to the Border region since DSO. The IOM has migrated to Granada and ITV has reduced their regional output. The area is so small that it is probably unviable as a region. I reckon STV will be allocated Selkirk and Caldbeck Scotland with Caldbeck England added to Tyne Tees. I expect something will come of this politically but the local population may prefer ITV to STV.
Very nice, I have been following the discussion, and yes I know that Border doesn't provide a separate service for the Scottish part of their region.
You've obviously never watched any Border; if you did then you would know that they do have a different programme to Tyne Tees, it's called Lookaround. (It's only the daytime bulletins that are "Tyne Tees & Border").
Also you would know that Lookaround covers both sides of the border, both English and Scottish parts. And so do "Tyne Tees & Border" bulletins.
Hardly an "English only service".
-rapido
Sounds very English to me.
http://www.transdiffusion.org/emc/insidetv/regionalism/the_end_of_the.php
What, your misinterpretation of someone's opinion on a broadcasting fansite is fact then? (Neither Scotland nor England are even mentioned in the quote you provide, which makes your assertion even more bemusing).
What makes it "an English only service" to you then? The fact that it's based in a studio in England?
I would guess you also consider the Six O'Clock News, Channel 4 News and News At Ten as being "English only services" on the same basis.
-rapido
It's not different because at least half of it is identical. Assuming that the Border part of the bulletin contains 50% Scottish news, then it clearly is a 75% English bulletin. Where I come from, the majority rules.
Where do you come from then?
A place where they like stretching definitions as they go along in order not to admit that they're wrong?
You clearly said "an English only service". Also if only half of something is identical, then it's obviously different.
-rapido