I think that means sky are not allowed to stop TUTV using CI+, not that TUTV can use standard CI interface.
I read it as saying TUTV can use any CAM. $ky were trying to restrict CAMs to CI+ only ones and that has been found illegal by Ofcon. We will see whether any of the old boxes reappear on the TUTV site. It's certainly one in the $ky nether regions. I expect them to appeal in true $ky fashion.
BTW I activated SS today and then gave 30 days notice. It will expire on 15 Jan. Hopefully!
Well, I've checked with TUTV on this one, because I knew people would read different things into it.
TUTV issued a press release today, which somewhat unhelpfully talked of CAMs and then in a footnote said "The vast majority of large screen TVs produced since May 2010 have CI+ Conditional Access Slots. "
They tell me that although Ofcom has not specified, "the reality will be CI+ not the CI CAM"
So, you're going to need a CI+ CAM; you're not going to be able to use it in older equipment (like the Humax 9300 or Topfield 5800).
Based on what they've told me, I'd expect modules to be available early in the new year.
For those not sure of the differences between CI/CI+, check my blog
The issue was that Sky wanted to restrict to Boxes as part of an existing package, and not enable stand alone offers. The CI issue was used to emphasise this by Sky.
They didn't want TUTV to be able to sell CAMs and Cards on the high street for access to Sky Sports only via TUTV.
The issue was that Sky wanted to restrict to Boxes as part of an existing package, and not enable stand alone offers. The CI issue was used to emphasise this by Sky.
They didn't want TUTV to be able to sell CAMs and Cards on the high street for access to Sky Sports only via TUTV.
That makes sense but Ofcon didn't explain it so well.
I hope we see $ky Sports CAMs in the supermarket then!
Sky didn't want Sky Sports available other than as part of a package (reason being, more or less, that they didn't feel the original Ofcom ruling was intended to allow someone to build a business simply by reselling Sky Sports and nothing else).
Had that been upheld, then people would only have been able to get Sky Sports in conjunction with a TUTV package, which involved the dedicated recorders and embedded software. That would be secure, but would cut potentially out a big chunk of the market.
Sky lost that on that point, but argued that if it were to be possible to retail just their product, then it needed to be protected, because of its immense value.
That meant that, to a degree, they got their way, with a restriction to equipment using embedded encryption, effectively ruling out third party PVRs, amongst other things (though of course, in practise, CAMs continued to work for a while).
Finally, this week's decision unpicks that, and allows not only selling of the package without being tied to other services, but also without such strict restrictions on equipment.
TUTV would have loved to have no restrictions at all, but they're pragmatic, and both they and other people I've spoken with over the last few months seemed to think that this (ie a move to CI+) was the most likely outcome.
I'm not anticipating an appeal, given that TUTV has said they'll be going with CI+ and that Sky Deutschland already permits the use of CI+ modules (as do other operators in Europe).
Even when Sky Sports launched on DTT, the industry people I spoke with though that this was the most likely eventual outcome.
I'm not anticipating an appeal, given that TUTV has said they'll be going with CI+ and that Sky Deutschland already permits the use of CI+ modules (as do other operators in Europe).
Even when Sky Sports launched on DTT, the industry people I spoke with though that this was the most likely eventual outcome.
$ky would not appeal for purely legal reasons but to frustrate and inconvenience its competitors and to cause as much harm to their businesses as possible.
$ky would not appeal for purely legal reasons but to frustrate and inconvenience its competitors and to cause as much harm to their businesses as possible.
Yip thats Sky they are assholes and proud of it :mad:
Will new subscribers next year receive a CI+ CAM to go with their viewing card? Will it be a new type of card? Will they simulcast so existing viewers are OK or will all of us require new cards? - a considerable changeover. Seems to me the card pairing Nigel wrote would happen this year will be unlikely to happen next year given TUTV limited resources!
Cheers
Will new subscribers next year receive a CI+ CAM to go with their viewing card? Will it be a new type of card? Will they simulcast so existing viewers are OK or will all of us require new cards? - a considerable changeover. Seems to me the card pairing Nigel wrote would happen this year will be unlikely to happen next year given TUTV limited resources!
Cheers
No new card will be needed, card paring can work on existing hardware.
CI+ means it can't be easily hacked. many cams were reverse engineered for illegal purposes.
Thanks for that - so my black card will still work for ESPN but will eventually stop working for Sky Sports in a CAM?
Nagravision 3 'Merlin' has not ever been hacked or used illegally anywhere in the world to my knowledge which is why it can be seen the whole Sky insistence on CI+ security is spurious - it's just to make things difficult for TUTV.
Cheers
Thanks for that - so my black card will still work for ESPN but will eventually stop working for Sky Sports in a CAM?
Nagravision 3 'Merlin' has not ever been hacked or used illegally anywhere in the world to my knowledge which is why it can be seen the whole Sky insistence on CI+ security is spurious - it's just to make things difficult for TUTV.
Cheers
Yes it has.
the pure reason for a camswap is oh so simple.
cardsharing.
There are quite a few satellite boxes that also do DTT and there is a way to get linux + mythtv + DTT tuner combo. if you load those with special cam emulators you can then access a share. with current cams it is by default using a slighlty easy way for any box to read the card. thus enables the card to be shared.
with the enforcement of CI+ an additional algorythm string is used so card can't unscramble unless it's present so only TUTV boxes, BT Vision boxes, and some late setanta branded boxes can open sky sports.
it is why sky change the viewing card every so often and upped the CAS latency to knock out CS. It's this type of illegal activity thats very hard to stop, since it's technically semi legal in that the cards a real sub.
it is also the reason why sky have not released an NDS cam because it would have been reverse engineered and so easily exploited.
surely they should be more worried about card cloning than sharing, and how do you share your card. I swap my card and place it in another box so that I can bugger off upstairs without the Mrs moaning about the footy or darts.
If I wanted to go round a mates house and take my card with me I cant see what the problem is, as it would be advertising for sky and espn and may make them start subscribing either via top up, virgin or sky.
By the way I know of no pub that borrows someones card to screen sport as I dare say they would be fined severley
Well it looks like my card has stopped working in my humax box. Works ok in both my tutv boxes but #sky sports 1 & 2 donnot work IF I place the card in the humax. ESPN still works though
surely they should be more worried about card cloning than sharing, and how do you share your card. I swap my card and place it in another box so that I can bugger off upstairs without the Mrs moaning about the footy or darts.
If I wanted to go round a mates house and take my card with me I cant see what the problem is, as it would be advertising for sky and espn and may make them start subscribing either via top up, virgin or sky. By the way I know of no pub that borrows someones card to screen sport as I dare say they would be fined severley
In my opinion, you have paid the subscription and got the card, why should you be locked to one box or make of box. If they value you as a customer then restricting you to viewing through one box only is a violation of your Consumers Right of Choice and therefore illegal. Why complicate matters. The Music industry would go out of business pretty quickly if they restricted you to using only one make of CD player etc. So come on Ofcom tell Sky they have no case and they face prosecution for violation of Consumers Right if they continue to lock cards to specific boxes or specify that only CI+ cams should be used. The old CI system could still be updated to be more secure. To impose a shift like this is criminal and could cost them subscribers/custom and therefor, what they afe far more interested in, MONEY!
Comments
restricting provision of the channels via CI+ CAMs, is in breach of Condition 14A
Sky cannot insist on Topup TV using CI+ Cams.
We intend to publish a non-confidential version of the decision in due course.
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/enforcement/competition-bulletins/closed-cases/all-closed-cases/cw_TUTV_Sky/
I read it as saying TUTV can use any CAM. $ky were trying to restrict CAMs to CI+ only ones and that has been found illegal by Ofcon. We will see whether any of the old boxes reappear on the TUTV site. It's certainly one in the $ky nether regions. I expect them to appeal in true $ky fashion.
BTW I activated SS today and then gave 30 days notice. It will expire on 15 Jan. Hopefully!
TUTV issued a press release today, which somewhat unhelpfully talked of CAMs and then in a footnote said "The vast majority of large screen TVs produced since May 2010 have CI+ Conditional Access Slots. "
They tell me that although Ofcom has not specified, "the reality will be CI+ not the CI CAM"
So, you're going to need a CI+ CAM; you're not going to be able to use it in older equipment (like the Humax 9300 or Topfield 5800).
Based on what they've told me, I'd expect modules to be available early in the new year.
For those not sure of the differences between CI/CI+, check my blog
They didn't want TUTV to be able to sell CAMs and Cards on the high street for access to Sky Sports only via TUTV.
That makes sense but Ofcon didn't explain it so well.
I hope we see $ky Sports CAMs in the supermarket then!
Sky didn't want Sky Sports available other than as part of a package (reason being, more or less, that they didn't feel the original Ofcom ruling was intended to allow someone to build a business simply by reselling Sky Sports and nothing else).
Had that been upheld, then people would only have been able to get Sky Sports in conjunction with a TUTV package, which involved the dedicated recorders and embedded software. That would be secure, but would cut potentially out a big chunk of the market.
Sky lost that on that point, but argued that if it were to be possible to retail just their product, then it needed to be protected, because of its immense value.
That meant that, to a degree, they got their way, with a restriction to equipment using embedded encryption, effectively ruling out third party PVRs, amongst other things (though of course, in practise, CAMs continued to work for a while).
Finally, this week's decision unpicks that, and allows not only selling of the package without being tied to other services, but also without such strict restrictions on equipment.
TUTV would have loved to have no restrictions at all, but they're pragmatic, and both they and other people I've spoken with over the last few months seemed to think that this (ie a move to CI+) was the most likely outcome.
They can retail to (Compatible) HDTV and HD-PVR owners and not worry about the insecurities of standard CI CAM modules.
We all know how much Sky hate CAM's, they allow freedom and put the consumer in control.
Sky like to tell people what to watch, how to watch it, and then most importantly, charge them £££'s for the privilege!
I expect an appeal will be arranged soon.
Even when Sky Sports launched on DTT, the industry people I spoke with though that this was the most likely eventual outcome.
$ky would not appeal for purely legal reasons but to frustrate and inconvenience its competitors and to cause as much harm to their businesses as possible.
Yip thats Sky they are assholes and proud of it :mad:
Reminds me of this song:
Denis Leary - Asshole
Cheers
No new card will be needed, card paring can work on existing hardware.
CI+ means it can't be easily hacked. many cams were reverse engineered for illegal purposes.
Nagravision 3 'Merlin' has not ever been hacked or used illegally anywhere in the world to my knowledge which is why it can be seen the whole Sky insistence on CI+ security is spurious - it's just to make things difficult for TUTV.
Cheers
Yes it has.
the pure reason for a camswap is oh so simple.
cardsharing.
There are quite a few satellite boxes that also do DTT and there is a way to get linux + mythtv + DTT tuner combo. if you load those with special cam emulators you can then access a share. with current cams it is by default using a slighlty easy way for any box to read the card. thus enables the card to be shared.
with the enforcement of CI+ an additional algorythm string is used so card can't unscramble unless it's present so only TUTV boxes, BT Vision boxes, and some late setanta branded boxes can open sky sports.
it is why sky change the viewing card every so often and upped the CAS latency to knock out CS. It's this type of illegal activity thats very hard to stop, since it's technically semi legal in that the cards a real sub.
it is also the reason why sky have not released an NDS cam because it would have been reverse engineered and so easily exploited.
If I wanted to go round a mates house and take my card with me I cant see what the problem is, as it would be advertising for sky and espn and may make them start subscribing either via top up, virgin or sky.
By the way I know of no pub that borrows someones card to screen sport as I dare say they would be fined severley
http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2010/12/21/ci-plus-set-for-dvb-return/
CS works like this.....
Card ----> reader ----> linux PC ----> internet.
internet ----> STB = open channel.
internet ----> another stb = open channel.
it's discreet as anything.