From what I've seen on the documentaries, the nazis were cruel beyond belief. I was absolutely gutted when I saw how the Jews were treated back then. Not many things make my heart sink (yes, I know a lot say that) but the footage was gut wrenching.
It has been widely reported that when the then General (later President) Eisenhower first discovered one of the camps (I can’t remember which one) he ordered films and photo’s to be taken of everything. When asked why he replied “In a few decades time some son of a bitch will turn around and say this never happened. I want these pictures to record that it did happen” (or something like that).
Dwight Eisenhower was a very perceptive man for a Republican.
As far as holocaust denial goes, well I don’t think anyone with mind can take it seriously, and is a belief held by only a tiny handful of rather eccentric individuals. To make it illegal will simply give it an importance it doesn’t have. I will simply ignore it, and believe that anyone who believes that the holocaust didn’t happen is quite frankly slightly deranged.
And what next? Will 9/11 denial be a crime? There are a number of people on DS who will swear blind that it was all an inside job. What about political crimes in Zimbabwe? There are a number of aging lefties who still see Robert Mugabe as an anti-colonial hero and claim Zimbabwe is really a heaven on earth which simply gets bad reporting from the “right wing media”. Ditto the Russian famine of the 1930’s. I’ve seen it argued that it never happened. Do we make any attempt to re-examine history (no matter how ludicrous) a crime?
Holocaust deniers, as people, are at best credulous, or at worst suffering from very acute paranoid delusions. But is it really a crime to be a moron? Let’s face it, if it was a crime most of us would now be serving 5 to 10 at her majesties pleasure.
I believe it's around about that. Factor in the Eastern European and Russian non-Jewish civilians who were mercilessly slaughtered and you can more than double that figure.
I believe it's around about that. Factor in the Eastern European and Russian non-Jewish civilians who were mercilessly slaughtered and you can more than double that figure.
Why are the others not included when it comes to the term "holocaust"?
I know that gypsies, homosexuals and others were murdered but they are not regarded when it comes to the use of the word "holocaust"
Why are the others not included when it comes to the term "holocaust"?
I know that gypsies, homosexuals and others were murdered but they are not regarded when it comes to the use of the word "holocaust"
I'm not sure why others are not included in the total nowadays. Here's a Wikipedia quote....
For hundreds of years, the word "holocaust" was used in English to denote massive sacrifices and great slaughters or massacres. During World War II, the word was used to describe Nazi atrocities regardless of whether the victims were Jews or non-Jews. Since the 1960s, the term has come to be used by scholars and popular writers to refer exclusively to the genocide of Jews.
Maybe the writings have been mainly by Jewish scholars, I really don't know.
I think people sometimes misunderstand the term 'holocaust denial'. It happened, and I think even most 'deniers' would accept that it happened (to some extent). But in the same way that 9/11 clearly 'happened', it doesn't mean that it happened in the way that we're told to believe by the media and by the history books.
I don't really accept anything I read in the media or see on TV as fact. I think 'sceptic' would be a better term than 'denier' for a lot of these types of things.
Going back to the Holocaust: do I think it happened? yes. Do I think it happened exactly as published in the history books? not necessarily. Has it been exploited for political gain? yes.
I think people sometimes misunderstand the term 'holocaust denial'. It happened, and I think even most 'deniers' would accept that it happened (to some extent). But in the same way that 9/11 clearly 'happened', it doesn't mean that it happened in the way that we're told to believe by the media and by the history books.
I don't really accept anything I read in the media or see on TV as fact. I think 'sceptic' would be a better term than 'denier' for a lot of these types of things.
Going back to the Holocaust: do I think it happened? yes. Do I think it happened exactly as published in the history books? not necessarily. Has it been exploited for political gain? yes.
Holocaust deniers prefer to be know as "revisionists". They attempt to rewrite this nasty bit of history by minimizing, denying or ignoring essential facts. I don't agree with Imprisonment as I think it's better to have the debate out in the open where these people can be seen for the fools they are.
Over the Xmas period there have been plenty of programmes about WWII. I never really knew much about the war and found them very interesting, especially the series about Auschwitz and the "final solution". It was very upsetting, it actually had me in tears. I have been reading up on it on the internet since.
Some people deny the holocaust and in other European countries it lands them in jail. As ridiculous as it is and horrible it is to deny it, should it really be punishable by jail? There is talk of them crminalising it in England, surely this would be the wrong thing to do, or would it?
Those men fought for our freedoms even if we don't like what they say.
Having an opinion that doesn't incite anyone else to violence should NOT BE ILLEGAL, we fought to be free.
BTW read Primo Levi If this is a Man, heartbreaking read.
The idea that someone should be imprisoned for espousing alternative versions of historical events is absurd. The First World War never happened, call the police!
For most holocaust deniers it's all about numbers.
Was it six million or two million. Maybe even just one million.
What's a few million murder victims among friends, eh?
That's what I thought the issue was.
It seems though the holocaust always seems to overshadow the many other losses during the war, there was plenty of genocide going on with the Russians.
Comments
Was it six million or two million. Maybe even just one million.
What's a few million murder victims among friends, eh?
True, but throwing people in jail for saying something didn't happen, clearly says a great deal about the gravity of the event in question.
Conversly, not throwing people in jail also says something about the gravity of the event... non?
I see this thread as a discussion about free speech.
The gravity of the event itself is not in doubt IMO.
While I appreciate that, the gravity of the event quite clearly is in question otherwise there would be no jail sentences.
Interesting if you think about it, by making holocaust denial a criminal offence, it has almost legitimised the discussion.
Dwight Eisenhower was a very perceptive man for a Republican.
As far as holocaust denial goes, well I don’t think anyone with mind can take it seriously, and is a belief held by only a tiny handful of rather eccentric individuals. To make it illegal will simply give it an importance it doesn’t have. I will simply ignore it, and believe that anyone who believes that the holocaust didn’t happen is quite frankly slightly deranged.
And what next? Will 9/11 denial be a crime? There are a number of people on DS who will swear blind that it was all an inside job. What about political crimes in Zimbabwe? There are a number of aging lefties who still see Robert Mugabe as an anti-colonial hero and claim Zimbabwe is really a heaven on earth which simply gets bad reporting from the “right wing media”. Ditto the Russian famine of the 1930’s. I’ve seen it argued that it never happened. Do we make any attempt to re-examine history (no matter how ludicrous) a crime?
Holocaust deniers, as people, are at best credulous, or at worst suffering from very acute paranoid delusions. But is it really a crime to be a moron? Let’s face it, if it was a crime most of us would now be serving 5 to 10 at her majesties pleasure.
5,830,000.
http://www.auschwitz.dk/docu/faq.htm
I believe it's around about that. Factor in the Eastern European and Russian non-Jewish civilians who were mercilessly slaughtered and you can more than double that figure.
Why are the others not included when it comes to the term "holocaust"?
I know that gypsies, homosexuals and others were murdered but they are not regarded when it comes to the use of the word "holocaust"
Actually, the figure for the holocaust in it's entirety (as opposed to the part involving the Jews) is around 11 million.
It's a good question.
I wonder if you can be jailed in france for denying they were murdered.
They are.
Im sure i read they were not, but must have read wrongly, thanks for the link:)
I'm not sure why others are not included in the total nowadays. Here's a Wikipedia quote....
Maybe the writings have been mainly by Jewish scholars, I really don't know.
http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/comment/29844/a-bad-law-against-holocaust-denial
I don't really accept anything I read in the media or see on TV as fact. I think 'sceptic' would be a better term than 'denier' for a lot of these types of things.
Going back to the Holocaust: do I think it happened? yes. Do I think it happened exactly as published in the history books? not necessarily. Has it been exploited for political gain? yes.
The original specifications led them to calculate that they could gas and burn 2,500 people an hour.
That's 60,000 a day...
or 420,000 a week...
or 21,900,000 a year.
Holocaust deniers prefer to be know as "revisionists". They attempt to rewrite this nasty bit of history by minimizing, denying or ignoring essential facts. I don't agree with Imprisonment as I think it's better to have the debate out in the open where these people can be seen for the fools they are.
Those men fought for our freedoms even if we don't like what they say.
Having an opinion that doesn't incite anyone else to violence should NOT BE ILLEGAL, we fought to be free.
BTW read Primo Levi If this is a Man, heartbreaking read.
In my view, the way these 'deniers' make themselves look stupid is an 'in-built' punishment for talking such nonsense.
Nick Griffin the horrendous BNP leader is one. It just exposes him for the vile individual that he is, it exposes him for being devoid from reality.
Let the moron and morons like him spout and expose themselves.
Of course it shouldn't be illegal it makes the morons far easier to spot.
I was talking about the Jews who were gassed and killed by other means.
I believe Nick Griffin has since apologised for his denial of the holocaust and now readily agrees that it did happen.
That's what I thought the issue was.
It seems though the holocaust always seems to overshadow the many other losses during the war, there was plenty of genocide going on with the Russians.