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Question about finale of Cold Blood (spoiler)
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Saw it on BBC Three again tonight, I don't get how the engagement ring still existed?
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[Deleted User]
Posts: 2,893 [Deleted User]
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The Crack erased things from history, but wasn't particularly tidy about it. Why is it a duck pond if there's never been any ducks...?
The world we see in 'The Big Bang' consists entirely of bits and pieces of history that don't make any sense. River also finds a photo of Rory and Amy, and Amy herself still exists even after her parents have never existed. Why is there an Amy Pond when there's never been a Pond...?
There's a bit about time travel messing up the objective removal of things from history in Flesh and Stone, so one is told explicitly that removal doesn't work flawlessly. Maybe errors accumulate?
I always thought this.
People's memories of and the physical existence of the person was erased, but not the effects that the person had left...
Or else, we would have had a similar story to Turn Left in many ways, where that change in effect resulted in massive chaos...
I ask because Demolished Man mentioned it earlier in the thread, and I can't remember.:)
So many loose ends and unanswered questions!
There was. Photo at a party, dressed as a centurion, along with Amy dressed as a short-skirted WPC.
Exactly as they were in A Christmas Carol.
Could :eek: Could that picture have been taken at their Honeymoon :eek:
So... Who planted that picture there in the past?
Wibbly Wobbly Speculation
Thanks, Solid.
Isn't that a bit odd, then? Surely photos of people who were disappeared wouldn't survive? The ones left behind would keep finding these pictures of strange people and wondering who they were.
How do those who say TBB made sense explain that?
There are two potential explanations:
1) There was a throwaway line at some point where The Doctor said "People fall out of the world sometimes, but they always leave traces, little things you can't quite account for: faces in photographs" ... Thus, the Photo Remained.
2) The Photo was planted there from beyond the course of events... By whom, no one knows - The Doctor, River, the Silence etc...
EDIT:
On a similar note... This same quote from The Doctor explains why Amy could remember him into existence during her wedding.
He said "Nothing is ever forgotten, not completely, and if something can be remembered, it can come back."
1) isn't an explanation, it doesn't answer Granny's point about people coming across photos of strange people.
"Little things you can't quite account for"
Forgotten faces on Photos... Little things you can't explain but aren't so out of the ordinary that you suspect something.
The problem with that is, it's also our universe and has to conform to expectations of what it would be reasonable to expect, given a set of events which are unusual, to put it mildly.
As an example, in TPO the stars went out in 102 AD, I believe. Yet given this cataclysmic event we find the world in 2011 has reached exactly the same point as it did in the original universe, where the stars continue to shine.
That alone would have made me stop watching in any other programme.
Think of it this way - the universe changes as little as possible for the rewritten timeline to make sense. Having a photograph of yourself in costume with a nobody that you never saw before and never saw again isn't going to cause you any mental contradictions, so it can stay.
So the question is not how does the engagement ring still exist, but how is it aboard the TARDIS? And there's a million ways that could have happened, even not counting the idea that the TARDIS protected it.
Or to put it another way, just like the confusion in the museum - the universe was so fractured that things are all wrong.
I'm not sure what you mean. The stars went out across all time and space - in essence the universe was completely destroyed, start to finish. The only thing that allowed the Earth to exist on was proximity to the TARDIS, which was exploding across all of time. But even that wasn't enough.
however. Even just the two points raised in this thread about the photo and the stars have already been answered as they were in the show.
And here I suppose is my whole point. You may not like the plot strands, the resolutions, or the explanations for various things such as the above but they are not plot holes. Not even close. They are explained in the episodes and as as i said earlier all sci fi had it's own system of internal logic. And the majority of S5 made sense within the confines and rules of it's own universe as set out in the story. Therefore not plot holes.
Also let's not forget that alot of the nitpicking is done by those who seek to attack S5 in general. And that's a weak argument. As the same could be said of all the seasons. It's just that which you choose to ignore when you are enthralled and wrapped up in the story becomes the straw stick others use to beat it with if it's not to their taste.
So I shall say again. While not massively complex by some standards I do think S5 asked more from the viewer in terms of paying attention and engaging with the fine detail of the narrative. And I still think that some of those who claim it was full of errors are blaming the writing for their own inadequacies.
Again though. A minority.
From the point of view of someone on Earth in 102 AD what happened was the stars went out. The "Sun" continued to shine (they didn't know it was the Tardis).
Now that would inevitably change the social development of the whole world. How would they navigate, for one thing. Would the Roman Empire continue in it's merry way, or would the peasants, inspired by fear, revolt? Etc etc.
I find it hard to believe that 2000 or so years later there would be a little Scottish girl in an English cottage identical to the one we saw in the 11th Hour when the universe was "normal" as we know it. And a social worker.
Moff gave a nod to the fact that things would be different with stuff like the Nile Penguins, but even that was a bit off because 2000 years is not much time for a penguin to change it's habitat.
Actually, I've gone into some detail here to make my meaning as clear as I can, and this is what I thought when I first saw the episode, but it is the least of my niggles with TBB.
As always, my opinion is not entrenched and I would be only too delighted if someone would tell me if and how I'm wrong.
Moff and his cracks!!!!! always making posts disappear!!!!:mad:
LOL My work here is done.
And surely as they were raised and answerd.....there was no need to pointlessly attack posters.....I mean in considering the kind of attacks that have been made against series 5, or any other series for that matter....this was hardly offencsive that you needed to attack someone's intelligence. I think its a fair question...it may have been explained as such by a line said by the Doctor...but at the same time, different answers are still being given, surely providing evidence that it did not fully explain something.....but was just a quick technobabble type explanation. Which it was, the Doctor said that some things get left behind, but I think its fair that some would think "hang on a minute, surely you would start to think something is weird when this stranger is nearly in every picture with you?". Though for me personally that is enough, what I felt an issue with when the series had finished was some felt that there was a specific pattern....which there wasn't...it was as simple as the Doctor said...somethings get left behind...but again that is what I took from it. So I too could be completly off...in fact even if I am not right now, Moff can change and explain anything away later, not meaning that he always had that plan, but something that he felt could be expalined away....like River's story....after all he only created her as an excuse to get the Doctor to the Library...and it has ended up being a huge story arc spreading two series (so far)....
In the end whether there is a proper explanation to things or not....Even Moff is happy to admit that he writes nonsense...which is what he describes of the way he wrote Amy bringing back the Doctor....so for all those that shout that scene is logical...well the writer himself seems to disagree.....
It doesn't matter if it is the minority or not, you have no right to patronise people like that. If you feel that someone is purposely attacking series 5...then give answer that will shut them up!!! For exaple if they say that the Doctor nevr mentioned anything about why thinsg get left....quote the exact dialogue....provide evidence, or an argued opinion of why you feel it makes sense even if it wasn't mentuoned on screen, rather than just going on their level and attacking their intelligence....
and even though it has been deleted...your comment of comparing racism and homophobia as being the same as those who criticise series 5...is seriously offensive to anyone who has been a victim of the formers!!! and weakens your argument considerably.....
In my opinion series 5 is best not followed with every detail and attention...as otherwise it breaks apart further! Series 5 wasn't my favourite....but that is because overall more stories in my opinion were the weakest/less enjoyable compared to only two for every previous series....but the plot holes were not an issue...as someone who loved the Earth being towed by the Tardis despite my head telling me not to, not knowing the exact pattern of why som things disappear and others don't isn't a huge issue....In the same way my head was telling me not to like the Fez and Mop scenes in the Big Bang...but stuff my head...my heart was laughing and loving every second!!!!
But people will question.....doesn't make them stupid, or unable to grasp things.....and like you said it still had its occasional inconsistancies....but only because you feel the photo one wasn't doesn't mean it wasn't for others!
Oh so your the Silence!!!!!!!!:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
Quick someone call the Doctor!!!!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d9NMnet3QU&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL