Considering the calm way he's discussing the ease of cheating and money laundering, I think that a considerable u-turn after toasting the deal would be such a stretch of the imagination that anyone seriously suggesting it has no grasp on reality or the human condition..
The WPBSA handled this badly and their actions clearly intended to favour JH, when other cheats have been more severely reprimanded.
We're not discussing the plausibility of somebody saying something, we're discussing whether it's possible that other video footage could exonerate him. Clearly you can think of examples of footage that would clear him of blame (I've given you one) so it's therefore impossible to be certain of anything when you haven't seen all of the evidence. What seems plausible or not doesn't really come into the equation, the only thing that matters is what actually happened.
If you've only just seen the original video then the least you should do is read the report from the investigation and some of the clarifying statements by David Douglas: Report, Q and A.
As it happens, it was the context that led to the ruling. They argued that Higgins had no prior knowledge about the offer to drop frames and that he found himself in a meeting discussing it because Mooney kept the details from him until the last minute. They also pointed to footage where Mooney (without Higgins being present) had discussions with journalists in which he suggested other players could do it instead of Higgins - implying that he was never going to go along with it anyway.
One quote from David Douglas, for instance:
And then, because I’ve listened to all the audio tapes, it’s not about 30 April in Kiev, [I know] it’s about Edinburgh on 8 April, it’s about Kiev on 29 April, and you hear conversations going on specifically out of the hearing of John Higgins, so he’s not to brought into this, because they know, fundamentally, they knew he was honest.
My own opinion is that I really don't know enough about it to have an opinion. Without that evidence I don't see how you can come to a conclusion about how legitimate the investigation is given their ruling basically relied on it.
Hi! Yes, I did manage to get online a bit, on my phone, but only very slowly so I couldn't read everything, and only when it was convenient with my parents. I did see some of the arguing, which I'm glad I mostly missed. I still don't know what I think about the whole Higgins bribes thing, but it is a shame that's it's overshadowed things, and I think a Trump win would have been better for the sport. Oh well.
I've just checked, and I'm not sure I'm going to be able to get to Derby I need to check a bit further, but I really really want to go!
I've also been wondering about going to see other tournaments - I wonder this every year, and I keep deciding not to, partly because nowhere is as convenient as the Crucible for me, and partly because after having spent a lot of time at the Crucible, I'm concerned that anywhere else will be a big disappointment! (I nearly counted up the other night how many sessions I've seen at the Crucible, but it started getting frightening, so I stopped! I dread to think how much I've spent over the years.)
I know, I would love to go to more but living in Stornoway kinda limits me a bit! If the World Open is in Glasgow in October I may make the effort to go again - especially if it won't be shown on TV now the BBC have dropped it. It's a quite a hassle for me though as it's a fair distance away and involves travelling by ferry and rail or road. I was at a Premier League night at the end of last year which was pretty good too.
Yeah, I would have loved Trump to win as it would have been a fitting end to his remarkable tournament. Still, I'm sure he'll go on to have many more wins. I just love watching him play as it's just about impossible to predict what he'll do next! He's generated a lot of interest in snooker over the last few weeks too and that can only be a good thing.
You didn't miss much on here Elanor except constant arguing and some really pathetic comments about Higgins. I don't know if they've been removed or not but I wouldn't be at all surprised if they had. There's really no excuse for slagging off a player's wife and children and calling them ugly. I noticed you weren't around but I'd forgotten that you said you might not be online so I wondered if you were just avoiding the thread because of all the nastiness and quite obvious trolling.
I agree that it was the best tournament we'd seen in a long time and I'm really looking forward to seeing Judd again. Also agree that it's a bit of a disappointment that Higgins is World Champion but I suppose he won the match fair and square. The argument about whether he should have been there at all has been done to death so I'm just going to leave that one alone Another reason I didn't want him to win was because he would end up with a World title more than Ronnie
Cliff Thorburn is meant to be at the Legends date in Inverness so we'll have a Canadian each
My favourite was that he is over rated. He has won 4 world titles, 3 UKs, 17 other ranking events, earned over £5 million in prize money and he is over rated. Priceless
My favourite was that he is over rated. He has won 4 world titles, 3 UKs, 17 other ranking events, earned over £5 million in prize money and he is over rated. Priceless
Aye, there were people on here last night clearly just stirring and/or trolling and who quite obviously didn't have the first clue about snooker before the Higgins scandal. Like him or not, you cannot say John is overrated. Yes, he had a good run of the ball when it mattered BUT that happens in every match and Judd had his share of it too. It's what you do with it that counts.
Not to mention post #2749 - a real "highlight" of the thread.
I was completely taken aback by the ones that came at the end of the match calling his kids ugly :eek: That's just pathetic and in my eyes it pretty much invalidates any argument you make if you have to resort to such things.
Rob Walker interviewing John on the World Snooker website (to the right)
We're not discussing the plausibility of somebody saying something, we're discussing whether it's possible that other video footage could exonerate him. Clearly you can think of examples of footage that would clear him of blame (I've given you one) so it's therefore impossible to be certain of anything when you haven't seen all of the evidence. What seems plausible or not doesn't really come into the equation, the only thing that matters is what actually happened.
If you've only just seen the original video then the least you should do is read the report from the investigation and some of the clarifying statements by David Douglas: Report, Q and A.
As it happens, it was the context that led to the ruling. They argued that Higgins had no prior knowledge about the offer to drop frames and that he found himself in a meeting discussing it because Mooney kept the details from him until the last minute. They also pointed to footage where Mooney (without Higgins being present) had discussions with journalists in which he suggested other players could do it instead of Higgins - implying that he was never going to go along with it anyway.
One quote from David Douglas, for instance:
My own opinion is that I really don't know enough about it to have an opinion. Without that evidence I don't see how you can come to a conclusion about how legitimate the investigation is given their ruling basically relied on it.
I shall indeed look further into this as I do think JH is a player worthy of that courtesy, however I will also consider the litigious nonsense spun attempting to cloud the facts and limit the damage.
The video is damning enough and at no point did he attempt to look anything other than pro the idea and the fact he even started to work out how best to hide the money really didn't do his case any favours regardless of how it was setup and who was/wasn't present at other times.
Thanks for the link.
PS.
I haven't made any conclusion on the investigation, my concern lies with the evidence delivered from his own mouth.
Yes, Higgins was very sporting and gentlemanly in his praise of Judd Trump in his interviews, wasn't he? It was nice to see. Whatever else his faults might be, he always seems a very pleasant bloke, and he's well liked by the other players, which must say something.
I hate it when people slag off the players' families online, it's so unnecessary! And Higgins's wife looks very nice and normal, I like her. And his kids are cute! I remember the crude comments about Neil's mother last year - some people just never know when to stop do they?
Yes, Higgins was very sporting and gentlemanly in his praise of Judd Trump in his interviews, wasn't he? It was nice to see. Whatever else his faults might be, he always seems a very pleasant bloke, and he's well liked by the other players, which must say something.
I hate it when people slag off the players' families online, it's so unnecessary! And Higgins's wife looks very nice and normal, I like her. And his kids are cute! I remember the crude comments about Neil's mother last year - some people just never know when to stop do they?
He does indeed seem to be very well liked by the others in the snooker world - as was his father. John Senior was clearly a big feature on the circuit and was obviously well thought of by those who knew him. I think that's probably part of why his passing away was spoken about so much. Perhaps there was an element of "rehabilitation" of John Junior to it but I'm sure Hazel, Dennis and all the others who mentioned him actually knew and liked the man.
As a contrast, I often wonder what the other players make of Ronnie. We all know Murphy doesn't really think much of him (I suspect that may partly be jealously about Ronnie's impact and influence on the game though) but we don't really hear anything about any of the others' opinions on him. I suspect he's probably not as well liked as John
Oh yeah, I remember those comments about Neil's mother. Honestly, this time of year seems to bring all the 14 year olds out of the woodwork!
My favourite was that he is over rated. He has won 4 world titles, 3 UKs, 17 other ranking events, earned over £5 million in prize money and he is over rated. Priceless
Yes, Higgins was very sporting and gentlemanly in his praise of Judd Trump in his interviews, wasn't he? It was nice to see. Whatever else his faults might be, he always seems a very pleasant bloke, and he's well liked by the other players, which must say something.
My thoughts exactly.
I was very pleased to see him win in the end, though couldn't help feel a bit sorry for Judd. Still he's sickeningly young and talented and will no doubt win many times in the years to come!
I agree with you about Higgins's comments about Judd too.
I hate it when people slag off the players' families online, it's so unnecessary! And Higgins's wife looks very nice and normal, I like her. And his kids are cute! I remember the crude comments about Neil's mother last year - some people just never know when to stop do they?
Have tried not read too much of the thread - there's quite often a lot of vitriol on DS regardless of what's being discussed and most of the time I try to steer clear of it.
TC - just wanted to say glad you had a great day. I must be the only person here who didn't see you in the crowd!
There's a programme called Sport Nation on BBC2 Scotland right now focussing on the Scottish snooker players, for those of you North of the Border and those of you with Sky.
^ We're on Facebook Chi .....if you can find the Monday morning posts and the link from Zawtowers post
Have you got to the bit where he says the one thing he would never, ever do is read Internet forums?! Hmm, can't think why
I always like how much respect the players have for eachother during the interviews after matches, especially Higgins last night saying that Judd was the better player.
I think Judd is a brilliant potter, and Im sure he has a bright future in snooker and will win WC one day, but his aggressive play let him down last night. He needs to play safe more often instead of playing risky shots.
Higgins has gone down in my estimations since the scandal last year, but Im still very happy for him and think it was a deserved win for him. Judd will be back stronger so not to worry! Well done Higgins!!
^ We're on Facebook Chi .....if you can find the Monday morning posts and the link from Zawtowers post
Have you got to the bit where he says the one thing he would never, ever do is read Internet forums?! Hmm, can't think why
Not yet, I suspect he is probably reading this maybe
There's a programme called Sport Nation on BBC2 Scotland right now focussing on the Scottish snooker players, for those of you North of the Border and those of you with Sky.
Missed that:( I hope it appears on Iplayer but is it only UK wide stuff that goes on there
That was indeed the programme, shame it's not on iplayer. Had a wee interview with Graeme Dott showing his routine and the flat he rents in Sheffield every year. Bit with Hendry about his non-retiral and an interview with Higgins. It was just completed today as they had bits from last night's final and they mentioned Judd and his rise to the top. It was only about 15 minutes altogether but it was interesting nonetheless.
Some points on the John Higgins argument which do not exonerate him but i think are often missed by ill informed shouters....
1. The NOTW are scum
2. The offer they made to Higgins was ludicrous in the extreme and effectively impossible for any sane human being to turn down......it tends to be with these stings cos it's the only way they'll get top players listening. The chance to drop a few frames from dozens he would be playing in a non WPBSA tournament which would not even affect the match outcome most of the time and be completely unspottable to a trained eye would be kind of tempting.
3. People need to remember that the "planned sting" was just that, and a badly planned one at that as you would never in a million years get enough money down with any of the dozens of internet bookmakers to cover your 300k cost simply aimed with the knowledge he would lose a few frames.
4. The NOTW need to have a serious look at themselves imo. They broke that story on eve of last years World Champs - who on earth even concieved of it? It's bloody entrapment surely? Same as the Pakistani cricketers, getting offered ludicrous money to bowl some no balls - no way on earth this would ever work as a "gambling" sting but as a "journalistic" one again it was too good to be true and suddenly the papers shout bent match all over their front pages and report the story on inside pages seemingly just omitting the glaring fact that bowling 4 no balls has virtually no effect on the outconme of a 50 over match but still shouting hysterically about how it could.
5. Higgins and the cricketers are all guilty of being greedy and stupid (if they knew anything about gambling they'd know that what they wer ebeing asked to do would never yield enough profits for what they were being offered) and certainly there is a good debate about how guilty they are of bringing game into disrepute but the facts are the newspapers "created" these stings frmo thin air and then scream form the rooftops about how corrupt the players are! I'd like to see the journalists investigated for entrapment personally.- I just don' tthink it is all as clear cut as some think.
Some points on the John Higgins argument which do not exonerate him but i think are often missed by ill informed shouters....
The offer they made to Higgins was ludicrous in the extreme and effectively impossible for any sane human being to turn down.
Only honest people would turn it down.
The simple fact remains that you Higgins supporters seem not to understand is that he broke all sorts of rules and is morally bankrupt, he let himself, HIS FATHER and the rest of his family down by doing what he did, the punishment was pathetic to put it mildly.
I think most on here including me would let this go if he had of been banned for at least one or two full seasons and been stripped of his world ranking, so that when he returns he has to qualify for tournements, that is a just punishment for his crime against snooker and honesty.
Just to echo what others have already said about John's family.
Whatever anybody may or may not think about John - his family should be off limits. I think it's very low to criticize his family. Especially his children - who look like great kids to me.
Comments
We're not discussing the plausibility of somebody saying something, we're discussing whether it's possible that other video footage could exonerate him. Clearly you can think of examples of footage that would clear him of blame (I've given you one) so it's therefore impossible to be certain of anything when you haven't seen all of the evidence. What seems plausible or not doesn't really come into the equation, the only thing that matters is what actually happened.
If you've only just seen the original video then the least you should do is read the report from the investigation and some of the clarifying statements by David Douglas: Report, Q and A.
As it happens, it was the context that led to the ruling. They argued that Higgins had no prior knowledge about the offer to drop frames and that he found himself in a meeting discussing it because Mooney kept the details from him until the last minute. They also pointed to footage where Mooney (without Higgins being present) had discussions with journalists in which he suggested other players could do it instead of Higgins - implying that he was never going to go along with it anyway.
One quote from David Douglas, for instance:
My own opinion is that I really don't know enough about it to have an opinion. Without that evidence I don't see how you can come to a conclusion about how legitimate the investigation is given their ruling basically relied on it.
I know, I would love to go to more but living in Stornoway kinda limits me a bit! If the World Open is in Glasgow in October I may make the effort to go again - especially if it won't be shown on TV now the BBC have dropped it. It's a quite a hassle for me though as it's a fair distance away and involves travelling by ferry and rail or road. I was at a Premier League night at the end of last year which was pretty good too.
Yeah, I would have loved Trump to win as it would have been a fitting end to his remarkable tournament. Still, I'm sure he'll go on to have many more wins. I just love watching him play as it's just about impossible to predict what he'll do next! He's generated a lot of interest in snooker over the last few weeks too and that can only be a good thing.
My favourite was that he is over rated. He has won 4 world titles, 3 UKs, 17 other ranking events, earned over £5 million in prize money and he is over rated. Priceless
Aye, there were people on here last night clearly just stirring and/or trolling and who quite obviously didn't have the first clue about snooker before the Higgins scandal. Like him or not, you cannot say John is overrated. Yes, he had a good run of the ball when it mattered BUT that happens in every match and Judd had his share of it too. It's what you do with it that counts.
I was completely taken aback by the ones that came at the end of the match calling his kids ugly :eek: That's just pathetic and in my eyes it pretty much invalidates any argument you make if you have to resort to such things.
Rob Walker interviewing John on the World Snooker website (to the right)
http://www.worldsnooker.com/page/NewsHome
My goodness he looks shattered! Can't be as easy at 35 as it was in his twenties! Praising Judd, which I'm sure we all agree with.
The video is damning enough and at no point did he attempt to look anything other than pro the idea and the fact he even started to work out how best to hide the money really didn't do his case any favours regardless of how it was setup and who was/wasn't present at other times.
Thanks for the link.
PS.
I haven't made any conclusion on the investigation, my concern lies with the evidence delivered from his own mouth.
Yes, Higgins was very sporting and gentlemanly in his praise of Judd Trump in his interviews, wasn't he? It was nice to see. Whatever else his faults might be, he always seems a very pleasant bloke, and he's well liked by the other players, which must say something.
I hate it when people slag off the players' families online, it's so unnecessary! And Higgins's wife looks very nice and normal, I like her. And his kids are cute! I remember the crude comments about Neil's mother last year - some people just never know when to stop do they?
He does indeed seem to be very well liked by the others in the snooker world - as was his father. John Senior was clearly a big feature on the circuit and was obviously well thought of by those who knew him. I think that's probably part of why his passing away was spoken about so much. Perhaps there was an element of "rehabilitation" of John Junior to it but I'm sure Hazel, Dennis and all the others who mentioned him actually knew and liked the man.
As a contrast, I often wonder what the other players make of Ronnie. We all know Murphy doesn't really think much of him (I suspect that may partly be jealously about Ronnie's impact and influence on the game though) but we don't really hear anything about any of the others' opinions on him. I suspect he's probably not as well liked as John
Oh yeah, I remember those comments about Neil's mother. Honestly, this time of year seems to bring all the 14 year olds out of the woodwork!
As someone said, 'average joe'
My thoughts exactly.
I was very pleased to see him win in the end, though couldn't help feel a bit sorry for Judd. Still he's sickeningly young and talented and will no doubt win many times in the years to come!
I agree with you about Higgins's comments about Judd too.
Have tried not read too much of the thread - there's quite often a lot of vitriol on DS regardless of what's being discussed and most of the time I try to steer clear of it.
TC - just wanted to say glad you had a great day. I must be the only person here who didn't see you in the crowd!
Where abouts on FB mate ?
I think Judd is a brilliant potter, and Im sure he has a bright future in snooker and will win WC one day, but his aggressive play let him down last night. He needs to play safe more often instead of playing risky shots.
Higgins has gone down in my estimations since the scandal last year, but Im still very happy for him and think it was a deserved win for him. Judd will be back stronger so not to worry! Well done Higgins!!
Not yet, I suspect he is probably reading this maybe
Missed that:( I hope it appears on Iplayer but is it only UK wide stuff that goes on there
The bad news is - if this is the show mentioned, it isnt on there
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01103sh
Bit of a needle in a haystack job, but i managed to find it
http://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1914756423068&set=a.1914330532421.109620.1066660939&type=1&l=58efc82c61&theater
beats my pic of the day hands down
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150183061210913&set=a.10150183060875913.302276.718390912&type=1&theater#!/photo.php?fbid=10150183060880913&set=a.10150183060875913.302276.718390912&type=1&theater&pid=7304778&id=718390912
1. The NOTW are scum
2. The offer they made to Higgins was ludicrous in the extreme and effectively impossible for any sane human being to turn down......it tends to be with these stings cos it's the only way they'll get top players listening. The chance to drop a few frames from dozens he would be playing in a non WPBSA tournament which would not even affect the match outcome most of the time and be completely unspottable to a trained eye would be kind of tempting.
3. People need to remember that the "planned sting" was just that, and a badly planned one at that as you would never in a million years get enough money down with any of the dozens of internet bookmakers to cover your 300k cost simply aimed with the knowledge he would lose a few frames.
4. The NOTW need to have a serious look at themselves imo. They broke that story on eve of last years World Champs - who on earth even concieved of it? It's bloody entrapment surely? Same as the Pakistani cricketers, getting offered ludicrous money to bowl some no balls - no way on earth this would ever work as a "gambling" sting but as a "journalistic" one again it was too good to be true and suddenly the papers shout bent match all over their front pages and report the story on inside pages seemingly just omitting the glaring fact that bowling 4 no balls has virtually no effect on the outconme of a 50 over match but still shouting hysterically about how it could.
5. Higgins and the cricketers are all guilty of being greedy and stupid (if they knew anything about gambling they'd know that what they wer ebeing asked to do would never yield enough profits for what they were being offered) and certainly there is a good debate about how guilty they are of bringing game into disrepute but the facts are the newspapers "created" these stings frmo thin air and then scream form the rooftops about how corrupt the players are! I'd like to see the journalists investigated for entrapment personally.- I just don' tthink it is all as clear cut as some think.
Magic!!
Only honest people would turn it down.
The simple fact remains that you Higgins supporters seem not to understand is that he broke all sorts of rules and is morally bankrupt, he let himself, HIS FATHER and the rest of his family down by doing what he did, the punishment was pathetic to put it mildly.
I think most on here including me would let this go if he had of been banned for at least one or two full seasons and been stripped of his world ranking, so that when he returns he has to qualify for tournements, that is a just punishment for his crime against snooker and honesty.
Whatever anybody may or may not think about John - his family should be off limits. I think it's very low to criticize his family. Especially his children - who look like great kids to me.