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Are T & D overstretched with the choreography...
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...having to do too much, so that the overall quality of choreography is leaving something to be desired ?
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Maybe if they worked with the pro skaters to allow them some input in the choreography.
Then of course we have T&D's own perfornances. They are still a delight but I'd like to see more of the pros. Perhaps if Chris and Jayne didn't have to choreograph a routine where they take centre stage they might come up with something more original for the pro/celeb partnerships.
Ina Bauer
completely agree.
Because some would know how to do it and some wouldn't and you could have problems if people damaged themselves trying too much. You might avoid the bland routines and get more great ones if a few pros could choregraph well , but you would also get more people avoiding what their celeb wasn't good at and playing it for just the laughs, if that won votes - as in SCD.
Surely they only got a year max before they hung up the skates.
Perhaps there's only so many good routines anyone can come up with per series. The really memorable routines seem to be based on memorable music which often suggest the routine and gives it a style, dramatic high points and story - like Jai Ho, River dance, 9 to 5, Music, Since U been Gone, Kyran, Chris or Ray's best too. Most routines don't start with that. and consist of things to do to get to the end of weaker music. The great routines also need dancers who can dance, skate and are supple and reasonably athletic and in the case of the females not too big or tall - which leaves lots of people with major limitations.
Perhaps the best they could do is to give people better songs, in so far as they are available, and employ some more choreographers to produce the best results from them. .
You have pretty much said what I was going to. Not all pro skaters can choreograph. Look at Colin with the Bolero last year when he said he didn't know how. Peoplecould argue just get pros in that know how to choreograph but its getting enough pro skaters that know how, that would want to do the show and would be popular with the public too.
If you get an ambitious pro they might keep pushing the celeb to do stuff that they really can't do and may end up getting hurt whereas T&D and the coaches generally know the limits of the celebs and pros although I have to admit this year I do wonder.
Also as you have said weaknesses could be just be hidden by avoiding them in the choreo. I think perhaps the pros and celebs could have a bit more input into routines maybe adding to the basic outline given by T&D but again you would need to have pros with enough knowledge to do it.
It would be nice to see more general pro numbers but again you have pros that have set moves and skills and tricks and it might get a bit boring if you were seeing them week in week out. Whereas when you just get a few pro numbers you appreciate what the pros can actually do.
I was lucky enough to go to one of the shows last year and I got to chat to Robin Cousins in the green room afterwards (what a lovely man he is). I asked him why they didn't let the pros choreograph the routines as, with the greatest respect to T&D, I did find some of the routines were getting rather samey. He said, very straightforwardly, what others have said - most of the pros are just not up to it. I am certainly no expert, but I believe it is relatively rare for ice dancers at the top level to choreograph their own routines - unlike ballroom dancing.
Shame, really.
I've always been of the same opinion, I just don't think most of the pros are capable of choreographing to a good standard, I've always thought that the Bolero's are usually the weakest routines of the series and it can't be a coincidence that it's because tnd don't devise them.
As someone else has mentioned, it's incredibly hard to make a routine look good when there's no dance ability or no skating ability and I reckon if we could see Jayne and Chris skate the routines as they could look they would all be fine.
I find it hard to believe that any of the pros could produce routines for celebs like Todd or comedy dave and make them suit their limited ability so well
Even if you made Todd or Dave do a top routine - or reused old ones if you can't think up any more - you hit the other problem of DOI. If you gave Anne Widdecombe Rachel Stephen's routines from SCD, she would look hopeless and the viewer can make the appropriate conclusion . If you gave Colleen Clare's routines, or Todd Sam's, or even Melinda Clare's, you would have broken bones or necks.
I think the weakness of the pros choregraphing also showed up in the show dances last year - not at all sure that was a good idea either.
What I mean is Todd and dave were given routines tht were not technical at all... But chris managed to still make them fun and suit them performance wise. He was even able to make use of daves stiffness and turn it into a positive! My point is that I don't think the pros would be able to do this if it were down to them.
I also don't think the pros could approach different styles, I love how at one time t and d can choreograph something like rays rock n roll and at another something so different as Laura's stop routine by Sam brown. I fear that if the pros choreographed the fundamental dance element to the show would become lost
If the pros choreographed themselves, everyone would be going all-out for a best routine.
As far as I can tell, they do an amazing job with some of the weaker skaters, and create some good, original stuff using their personalities. They also do some amazing stuff with the men and women at the top of the leaderboard. Where it can get samey is for the people in the middle of the leader-board. I often feel sorry for the good skaters who aren't the obvious front-runner. It does sometimes look like the top man and top woman gets all of the good stuff, while the second best man and woman gets stuff that stretches them technically, but isn't that creative, because the good idea for a skater of that level was used up the week before.
I'm not sure if I've explained that well. I do have immense respect for what they achieve. I just get the feeling that a bit more support, and that they should have less celebs each year, as it would instantly reduce the problem of the middle of the leader-board performances being samey. I know ITV want the show to be as long as possible, and the extra couple of weeks mean the skaters get even better by the finals, so it works both ways.
I think in terms of the pros some will have an interest and/or flair for choreographing with others not (same with strictly really where some pros are much better than others). Personally I'm happy for T&D to remain in charge but gain input from outside expertise as necessary. We know they sometimes do this already & it may well be that pros do have some input e.g. they may say that this week why not try this move or lift etc. Remember we only see snippets of training footage so we don't know for certain that pros have no input although T&D are certainly in overall charge.
There are some moves that I think are overdone. I'd personally be happy never to see another headbanger but sometimes I wonder if the producers are at fault more than T&D. Am sure producers like the idea of stuff like that and it may be their influence that sees it getting overused. Same with Bolero - I'd love to see celebs do other T&D routines but I know this is never going to happen because as far as Joe public are concerned T&D = Bolero and it's what they are best known for. This board isn't representative of the general audience in that respect.
Or - and I feel I will probably get a brick thrown at me through my computer screen - could it be that T&D are well aware of their own limitations, and don't want to risk being shown up by better skaters?
As for bolero - mentioned above - I absolutely agree about wishing it could be replaced by a different T&D routine, it's just sooooooo boring now.
I think you've just hit the nail on the head !!!!
A lot of pro's who can choreograph might not actually want to do the show. A lot want to work within the competitive circuit and want to choreo that stuff rather than get involved with a tv show. Also a lot of ex competitive skaters are also involved in skating shows now like Holiday On Ice etc and numerous others throughout the world and don't want to give that up. I believe some skaters don't actually look favourably on DOI anyway and don't want to get involved with it. Heard mixed reviews about the Kerrs thoughts on it for example.
Also look at the fuss people kick up already when their favourite pro isn't back in the show you try and get rid of all the favourites you would have complete anarchy on your hands. People still complain about Mel and Fred and Kristina not being involved if you brought in all new pro's people would not be happy.
What are you comparing them with to say the pros that are on the show are not that great? They don't get a lot of chance to show off what they can actually do since they have to make the celebs look good and the group routines are only occasional. It was good last week to see Matt and Mark getting a chance to show off a bit and hope there will be more of those pro routines.
Mark can definitely do choreography too.
I love matt I really do but I just did not like the opening... There performances just seemed a bit flat