Is there anyone who shares my opinion that, for Standard Definition TV and video/DVD viewing etc, a CRT TV is, all things considered, better, overall, for picture quality than any LCD/Plasma screen etc?
Equally, I'd be interested to hear the opposite opinion, and why.
CRT are heavy,ugly monstrosities. LCD is lighter and better.
I can remember the days of CRT and how it was like watching television through a mist. Programmes look washed out and lacked definition.
For most other things, a great plasma or exceptional LCD can trounce a CRT.
Can any of these great or exceptional LCDs keep the MPEG blocking and mosquito noise just as suppressed, and, at the same time, provide a crisp and sharp picture with Standard Definition material, like a good CRT can? If it is your opinion that they can, I'd be interested in the model(s) you are referring to, so that if I'm in a position to be able to verify this with Standard Definition material, myself, I will.
You are going to find it hard to do any sampling. Too many variables. You would need to see all the sets in the environment claiming to have good SD pics. The set up would have to be the same and the signal/source the same, to make it a good comparison.
Many people prefer Modern TV's to the old CRT's because they prefer the picture they give. Some of it may be subjective, but, never the less it's a preference. People constantly trying to prove something is not what others experience is pointless.
MPEG artefacts such as you get on ITV are very visible on any decent CRT TV. That you can't see them means you sit far enough away from your TV to hide them, if you sat the same distance from the same size panel you would not see them either.
If you are far enough away from your TV to hide the MPEG blocking then you are certainly far enough away that upscaling artefacts are invisible. I suspect you are comparing a CRT with a larger panel or that you have been viewing in a different location and sitting closer to the panel.
I cannot agree. As I said in one of my earlier replies (about watching 16:9 and 2.35:1 material on my 21" CRT TV), I often view the screen from quite close up (probably too close up, sometimes, for it to be healthy for the eyes), and I do not find any of the objectionable artefacts, such as MPEG blocking and mosquito noise, which is so evident when viewing SD material on LCD/Plasmas etc. There are minor imperfections to the picture display, yes, but nothing like the significant picture issues I've described when watching SD material with LCD/Plasmas etc.
The fact that you keep mentioning "mosquito noise" - whatever that is - in relation to standard definition television (which is related to picture, not audio) suggests that you don't actually understand the difference between HD and SD. You have found some people who agree with you that the CRTs they have witnessed present a better picture than LCD/plasma TVs they have seen. And you have come across other forum members who disagree with you.
Not much more to say really - you won't convince people who can already see that current LCDs and plasmas have a much sharper picture than old CRTs that CRT is better, and you don't need to try and convince people who agree with you of anything at all, so don't know where else this thread can go now...
Is there anyone who shares my opinion that, for Standard Definition TV and video/DVD viewing etc, a CRT TV is, all things considered, better, overall, for picture quality than any LCD/Plasma screen etc?
Equally, I'd be interested to hear the opposite opinion, and why.
I personally prefer LCD/LED TVs now and would never go back to a CRT TV which are big CRT on and they take up a lot of room.
I do not like plasma TVs that much as I personally prefer LCD/LED TVs but I would rather use a plasma than a CRT TV.
But if you really do prefer to use a CRT TV then I remember that a few years ago Samsung released in the UK a CRT that had HDMI sockets.
I think that they were the only manafacture to release a CRT in the UK that had HDMI sockets on it.
I know that in the USA it is quite commone to find CRT TV
with HDMI scokets, well it was a few years ago when I last went on holiday to the USA in 2008.
I have no experiance this Samsung CRT TV but I did a google search and this is what came up.
You can not buy them brand new any more so if you want one then you will have to buy one seconed hand but I think that they are very hard to get hold of now.
But if you really do prefer to use a CRT TV then I remember that a few years ago Samsung released in the UK a CRT that had HDMI sockets.
I think that they were the only manafacture to release a CRT in the UK that had HDMI sockets on it.
I know that in the USA it is quite commone to find CRT TV
with HDMI scokets, well it was a few years ago when I last went on holiday to the USA in 2008.
You can not buy them brand new any more so if you want one then you will have to buy one seconed hand but I think that they are very hard to get hold of now.
Hope that this help.l
Why do you think the OP is bothered about HDMI sockets? I've read through every post he has made in this thread and not once does he say that he is bothered about the connectivity provided by any television set - what does HDMI have to do with anything? If he is only talking about standard definition, he certainly doesn't need HDMI sockets as either outputs from his source or inputs into his TV.
I cannot agree. As I said in one of my earlier replies (about watching 16:9 and 2.35:1 material on my 21" CRT TV), I often view the screen from quite close up (probably too close up, sometimes, for it to be healthy for the eyes), and I do not find any of the objectionable artefacts, such as MPEG blocking and mosquito noise, which is so evident when viewing SD material on LCD/Plasmas etc. There are minor imperfections to the picture display, yes, but nothing like the significant picture issues I've described when watching SD material with LCD/Plasmas etc.
MPEG blocking is really obvious on any decent CRT when viewed close enough, your CRT TV cannot remove this. Try watching ITV football or anything fast moving, If you can't see the blocking there from close up you must have an incredibly blurry TV. You don't say how close up you view from but 21" is a very small TV by modern standards (especially if 16:9) so you would have to get very close.
Mosquito noise again is not removed by a CRT but the less sharp image may mitigate it's affects, again viewing from distance is the most likely reason you don't see it.
The fact that you keep mentioning "mosquito noise" - whatever that is - in relation to standard definition television (which is related to picture, not audio) suggests that you don't actually understand the difference between HD and SD.
Some people seem to have suggested CRTs display mosquito noise also. I am not convinced about this myself, but I don't claim to know everything about HD versus SD. As other people believe it, it's just far too small a point to make an issue out of it, OK?
I am a VT operator in the television industry, so I have a lot more expertise about the technicalities of television, in general, than you may have assumed.
But if you really do prefer to use a CRT TV then I remember that a few years ago Samsung released in the UK a CRT that had HDMI sockets.
I think that they were the only manafacture to release a CRT in the UK that had HDMI sockets on it.
I know that in the USA it is quite commone to find CRT TV
with HDMI scokets, well it was a few years ago when I last went on holiday to the USA in 2008.
I have no experiance this Samsung CRT TV but I did a google search and this is what came up.
...not compared with an LCD that's showing all those faults. Though, subjectively, some of the scanning lines and flicker help to hide the limited resolution of CRTs. If you soften the LCD display to match the CRT, most of the faults will disappear.
Some people seem to have suggested CRTs display mosquito noise also. I am not convinced about this myself, but I don't claim to know everything about HD versus SD. As other people believe it, it's just far too small a point to make an issue out of it, OK?
I am a VT operator in the television industry, so I have a lot more expertise about the technicalities of television, in general, than you may have assumed.
Mosquito noise happens because of the MPEG encoding, it is possible to eliminate some of the effects in the decoder with sophisticated post processing but if present in the uncompressed picture sent to the TV it is there. It is not a feature of the panel itself.
Generally mosquito noise is only noticeable with larger displays (or sitting very close) so you would not expect to see it on smaller displays such as a 21" CRT. However sit close enough and it will be there if present in the source.
Mosquito noise happens because of the MPEG encoding, it is possible to eliminate some of the effects in the decoder with sophisticated post processing but if present in the uncompressed picture sent to the TV it is there. It is not a feature of the panel itself.
Generally mosquito noise is only noticeable with larger displays (or sitting very close) so you would not expect to see it on smaller displays such as a 21" CRT. However sit close enough and it will be there if present in the source.
If the CRT TV design enables the imperfections to be "hidden" and, at the same time, the picture quality remains crisp and sharp, and without the MPEG blocking and mosquito noise, which I find so objectionable with LCD/Plasmas etc, I'll settle for that, when viewing Standard Definition material.
Can you please explain what you mean when you say that CRT pictures suffer from tilted images.
Like glass reflections of the CRT, the fact that they are bigger and harder to move etc is not really a big concern to me, overall picture quality is the first priority for me, when viewing Standard Definition material. All these other things come further down the list.
I have a vast archive of Standard Definition material on S-VHS, VHS and DVD, and so it will always be a big issue for me.
"tilted images" (more clearly seen on letter boxed stuff) is a result of the Earths magnetic pull, Some CRTs could be adjusted in the settings to correct for it, while others didnt.
MPEG2 effects are visible on all displays - the error is in the broadcast. This compression technology could never cope with fast moving objects, worse still detailed fast moving stuff, like water. Just goes to lego blocks. I remember seeing this effect on the "Vault" music channel, via Sky back when I had that installed in circa 2002, and on a CRT tv.
In my opinion, with regard to CRTs hiding the imperfections while still showing a crisp image - they dont manage this. Up close CRTs have a very soft image. I remember the stats and info for F1 on CRT, and it was quite blurry (sort of slightly out of focus). Now, even without using HD, our LCDs show defined edges between (for example) the block backgrounds and lettering. The LCD is a high res display, so its sharper - even on SD, but this also means you will see imperfections that were not visible on CRTs.
also, using SCART cant ever offer the best picture. Its a hatefull design, with risks of cross talk between colours, interference from the RF source (eg, you see a faint "ghost" image in the background of the channel being picked up by the tuner, while you are viewing a DVD/satellite/etc via Scart), and the worst plug design ever invented. Heavy cables dont bend, and the plugs fall out out.
I know many will still defend RGB scart, but I would rather not use any scart and use HDMI instead - even for SD.
"tilted images" (more clearly seen on letter boxed stuff) is a result of the Earths magnetic pull, Some CRTs could be adjusted in the settings to correct for it, while others didnt.
Oh, that. Yes, my Sony KV-21LS30U has the facility to adjust for this, called 'Picture Rotation'. I have mine set to -2 (it can be set anywhere, from -10 to +10), so, judging by what I have to have it set to, a small amount of correction is needed on this CRT TV.
If it wasn't in the standard menu, then I'm sure it would have been an adjustment found in the geometry section of the service menu, where I have tweaked picture geometry a little for a couple of small errors, on this CRT. I've never had any other CRT TV which has had this 'Picture Rotation' facility, not in the standard menu, anyway.
thats it "picture rotation" option on the more expensive Sonys Wegas. Note, the rest of the range didnt have the option!
I don't know whether you could say that my Sony KV-21LS30U is a 'more expensive' Sony Wega - I think it was around £320 when it was available new, about 10 years ago.
I have a LED-backlit LCD upstairs and a CRT downstairs.
For SD broadcasts, I prefer the CRT. DVDs don't look too bad on the LCD, though.
Waiting for OLED/QLED to replace the CRT, perhaps.
HD is prominent now, but non-HD material is also important (ensuring an optimum performance).
Could you explain why you prefer CRT for SD broadcasts. I am in agreement with you, but I'd be interested to know what exactly you prefer about its picture quality when viewing SD broadcasts, compared with your LED-backlit LCD display.
also, using SCART cant ever offer the best picture. Its a hatefull design, with risks of cross talk between colours, interference from the RF source (eg, you see a faint "ghost" image in the background of the channel being picked up by the tuner, while you are viewing a DVD/satellite/etc via Scart), and the worst plug design ever invented. Heavy cables dont bend, and the plugs fall out out.
You shouldn't use such crap SCART leads
Your problems all stem from cheap nasty unscreened leads - which ARE truly terrible. But a decent quality individually screened SCART solved all those problems, and doesn't need to be expensive.
The 'falling out' is true in part, but that's mainly expensive silly priced leads, and good quality sensible price leads are mostly fine.
But HDMI is the way of the future - the lack of SCART's on modern TV's really means you shouldn't buy equipment without HDMI.
A few years ago I would have agreed with you, I used to watch freeview and play DVDs via a PC connected to the TV as it was the only affordable way to get decent upscaling (although for all I know if I'd been prepared to buy an upscaler costing as much as a PC then that might have worked nicely too). However, technology moves on, and I am now very happy with how my Panasonic Viera handles SD.
I remember the days when you went down to your local video rental shop (now a tanning salon) take the latest VHS movie home, put the cassette in and see the end of the movie as the lazy shop assistant did not wind the tape back:)
Tech moves on for better or worse, now TV's are more like computers with apps, streaming media content and not forgetting HD programming!
Could you explain why you prefer CRT for SD broadcasts. I am in agreement with you, but I'd be interested to know what exactly you prefer about its picture quality when viewing SD broadcasts, compared with your LED-backlit LCD display.
The image compression looks rather magnified, from what I remember - the CRT doesn't show it.
I don't expect HD images (so to speak), but I'm sure it shouldn't look that different (e.g. upscaling in a computer is generally fine, I think). I'm not sure if it's the fault of the broadcaster (if it looks fine on a CRT), or if the LCD model doesn't upscale (or process?) well (contradicts if watching DVDs doesn't look bad, if not perfect perhaps).
There's just something about the panel (LCD's in general?) that I've never liked, or felt comfortable with - it always feels as if I'm watching an internet broadcast. I have any filters switched off as well. With what OLED/QLED promises, such issues will probably be reduced, or eradicated.
Your problems all stem from cheap nasty unscreened leads - which ARE truly terrible. But a decent quality individually screened SCART solved all those problems, and doesn't need to be expensive.
The 'falling out' is true in part, but that's mainly expensive silly priced leads, and good quality sensible price leads are mostly fine.
I'd love to be able to connect the Sky to the CRT TV using S-Video, but from what I remember, it didn't work. I'm using a SCART.
But HDMI is the way of the future - the lack of SCART's on modern TV's really means you shouldn't buy equipment without HDMI.
Quality is preserved, and together into a small cable - that's great.
However, not all equipment has HDMI (e.g. Wii Console, DVD Players, etc), so it's important displays cater for those as well. I agree though that any (?) equipment now should have HDMI output.
A few years ago I would have agreed with you, I used to watch freeview and play DVDs via a PC connected to the TV as it was the only affordable way to get decent upscaling (although for all I know if I'd been prepared to buy an upscaler costing as much as a PC then that might have worked nicely too). However, technology moves on, and I am now very happy with how my Panasonic Viera handles SD.
I remember the days when you went down to your local video rental shop (now a tanning salon) take the latest VHS movie home, put the cassette in and see the end of the movie as the lazy shop assistant did not wind the tape back:)
Tech moves on for better or worse, now TV's are more like computers with apps, streaming media content and not forgetting HD programming!
Technology does move on, but it's important that regression doesn't occur and we maintain quality;).
Though it could be because of what I refer to at the top.
Comments
CRT are heavy,ugly monstrosities. LCD is lighter and better.
I can remember the days of CRT and how it was like watching television through a mist. Programmes look washed out and lacked definition.
Can any of these great or exceptional LCDs keep the MPEG blocking and mosquito noise just as suppressed, and, at the same time, provide a crisp and sharp picture with Standard Definition material, like a good CRT can? If it is your opinion that they can, I'd be interested in the model(s) you are referring to, so that if I'm in a position to be able to verify this with Standard Definition material, myself, I will.
Many people prefer Modern TV's to the old CRT's because they prefer the picture they give. Some of it may be subjective, but, never the less it's a preference. People constantly trying to prove something is not what others experience is pointless.
I cannot agree. As I said in one of my earlier replies (about watching 16:9 and 2.35:1 material on my 21" CRT TV), I often view the screen from quite close up (probably too close up, sometimes, for it to be healthy for the eyes), and I do not find any of the objectionable artefacts, such as MPEG blocking and mosquito noise, which is so evident when viewing SD material on LCD/Plasmas etc. There are minor imperfections to the picture display, yes, but nothing like the significant picture issues I've described when watching SD material with LCD/Plasmas etc.
Not much more to say really - you won't convince people who can already see that current LCDs and plasmas have a much sharper picture than old CRTs that CRT is better, and you don't need to try and convince people who agree with you of anything at all, so don't know where else this thread can go now...
I personally prefer LCD/LED TVs now and would never go back to a CRT TV which are big CRT on and they take up a lot of room.
I do not like plasma TVs that much as I personally prefer LCD/LED TVs but I would rather use a plasma than a CRT TV.
But if you really do prefer to use a CRT TV then I remember that a few years ago Samsung released in the UK a CRT that had HDMI sockets.
I think that they were the only manafacture to release a CRT in the UK that had HDMI sockets on it.
I know that in the USA it is quite commone to find CRT TV
with HDMI scokets, well it was a few years ago when I last went on holiday to the USA in 2008.
I have no experiance this Samsung CRT TV but I did a google search and this is what came up.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Samsung+CRT+with+HDMI+socket&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari
You can not buy them brand new any more so if you want one then you will have to buy one seconed hand but I think that they are very hard to get hold of now.
Hope that this help.l
Why do you think the OP is bothered about HDMI sockets? I've read through every post he has made in this thread and not once does he say that he is bothered about the connectivity provided by any television set - what does HDMI have to do with anything? If he is only talking about standard definition, he certainly doesn't need HDMI sockets as either outputs from his source or inputs into his TV.
MPEG blocking is really obvious on any decent CRT when viewed close enough, your CRT TV cannot remove this. Try watching ITV football or anything fast moving, If you can't see the blocking there from close up you must have an incredibly blurry TV. You don't say how close up you view from but 21" is a very small TV by modern standards (especially if 16:9) so you would have to get very close.
Mosquito noise again is not removed by a CRT but the less sharp image may mitigate it's affects, again viewing from distance is the most likely reason you don't see it.
Some people seem to have suggested CRTs display mosquito noise also. I am not convinced about this myself, but I don't claim to know everything about HD versus SD. As other people believe it, it's just far too small a point to make an issue out of it, OK?
I am a VT operator in the television industry, so I have a lot more expertise about the technicalities of television, in general, than you may have assumed.
I have no need for HDMI socketry, as I only view Standard Definition material on my CRT TVs.
Cheers,
David.
Mosquito noise happens because of the MPEG encoding, it is possible to eliminate some of the effects in the decoder with sophisticated post processing but if present in the uncompressed picture sent to the TV it is there. It is not a feature of the panel itself.
Generally mosquito noise is only noticeable with larger displays (or sitting very close) so you would not expect to see it on smaller displays such as a 21" CRT. However sit close enough and it will be there if present in the source.
Thanks for the info.
"tilted images" (more clearly seen on letter boxed stuff) is a result of the Earths magnetic pull, Some CRTs could be adjusted in the settings to correct for it, while others didnt.
MPEG2 effects are visible on all displays - the error is in the broadcast. This compression technology could never cope with fast moving objects, worse still detailed fast moving stuff, like water. Just goes to lego blocks. I remember seeing this effect on the "Vault" music channel, via Sky back when I had that installed in circa 2002, and on a CRT tv.
In my opinion, with regard to CRTs hiding the imperfections while still showing a crisp image - they dont manage this. Up close CRTs have a very soft image. I remember the stats and info for F1 on CRT, and it was quite blurry (sort of slightly out of focus). Now, even without using HD, our LCDs show defined edges between (for example) the block backgrounds and lettering. The LCD is a high res display, so its sharper - even on SD, but this also means you will see imperfections that were not visible on CRTs.
I know many will still defend RGB scart, but I would rather not use any scart and use HDMI instead - even for SD.
Oh, that. Yes, my Sony KV-21LS30U has the facility to adjust for this, called 'Picture Rotation'. I have mine set to -2 (it can be set anywhere, from -10 to +10), so, judging by what I have to have it set to, a small amount of correction is needed on this CRT TV.
If it wasn't in the standard menu, then I'm sure it would have been an adjustment found in the geometry section of the service menu, where I have tweaked picture geometry a little for a couple of small errors, on this CRT. I've never had any other CRT TV which has had this 'Picture Rotation' facility, not in the standard menu, anyway.
I don't know whether you could say that my Sony KV-21LS30U is a 'more expensive' Sony Wega - I think it was around £320 when it was available new, about 10 years ago.
For SD broadcasts, I prefer the CRT. DVDs don't look too bad on the LCD, though.
Waiting for OLED/QLED to replace the CRT, perhaps.
HD is prominent now, but non-HD material is also important (ensuring an optimum performance).
Could you explain why you prefer CRT for SD broadcasts. I am in agreement with you, but I'd be interested to know what exactly you prefer about its picture quality when viewing SD broadcasts, compared with your LED-backlit LCD display.
You shouldn't use such crap SCART leads
Your problems all stem from cheap nasty unscreened leads - which ARE truly terrible. But a decent quality individually screened SCART solved all those problems, and doesn't need to be expensive.
The 'falling out' is true in part, but that's mainly expensive silly priced leads, and good quality sensible price leads are mostly fine.
But HDMI is the way of the future - the lack of SCART's on modern TV's really means you shouldn't buy equipment without HDMI.
Tech moves on for better or worse, now TV's are more like computers with apps, streaming media content and not forgetting HD programming!
I don't expect HD images (so to speak), but I'm sure it shouldn't look that different (e.g. upscaling in a computer is generally fine, I think). I'm not sure if it's the fault of the broadcaster (if it looks fine on a CRT), or if the LCD model doesn't upscale (or process?) well (contradicts if watching DVDs doesn't look bad, if not perfect perhaps).
There's just something about the panel (LCD's in general?) that I've never liked, or felt comfortable with - it always feels as if I'm watching an internet broadcast. I have any filters switched off as well. With what OLED/QLED promises, such issues will probably be reduced, or eradicated.
I'd love to be able to connect the Sky to the CRT TV using S-Video, but from what I remember, it didn't work. I'm using a SCART.
Quality is preserved, and together into a small cable - that's great.
However, not all equipment has HDMI (e.g. Wii Console, DVD Players, etc), so it's important displays cater for those as well. I agree though that any (?) equipment now should have HDMI output.
Technology does move on, but it's important that regression doesn't occur and we maintain quality;).
Though it could be because of what I refer to at the top.
RGB SCART is far higher quality than S-Video, it's the best possible SD connection.