My point is, pretty much, that threads like this get full of myths from people, like yourself, who worship at the altar of these infallible dogs. You said before that they had never ever been wrong, except supposedly in the McCann case.
Now, you're saying that in the one other high-profile case they've had, which turned into a complete shambles, they weren't wrong, but it's just that the police haven't looked hard enough for the body. i.e There can't possibly be any false positives.
It would be laughable, if it wasn't so tragic....
But without Madeleine either alive or not, or evidence of another body - then the alerts are what the alerts are.
The dogs alerted at various places and so far no reason for those alerts have been found.
Just because there isn't a body linked to the alerts as yet, doesn't mean they are wrong or can be dismissed as false positive - it just means that the dogs alerted as yet reason unknown.
The dogs alert at where a body has been (if a body was in plain view, then to be fair then a human pair of eyes would do just as well :cool:). Just because it isn't there any more doesn't mean it was never there - but that is up to the humans detectives to decide, not the dogs.
Oh no this tread has descended into the usual two sides:
1. People who like to think the McCanns are innocent and that Maddie is still alive
2. People who like to believe the evidence of dogs and the Portuguese police.
I predict this thread will soon be closed as no one is discussing the program anymore.
What about the rational ones like me:
People who hope that Maddie is still alive but beleive the McCanns are irresponsible parents
Once more: most of the 170 pieces of bone found in the Jersey search came from animals; three were human and two of these dated from between 1470-1670 and 1650-1950 respectively.
Eddie, the same ‘enhanced victim recovery dog’ or EVRD used in both Portugal and Jersey, does not react to human remains per se. He did not react to that stupid coconut shell, but to the presence of human cadaverine, aka ‘the smell of death’. This is a complex compound only released by human bodies post mortem, and Eddie has been trained to detect it in the most feebly residual traces. He doesn’t smell bones or bodies – just this grimly unique matter.
In demonstrations and criminal investigations, he has detected cadaverine under water, beneath thick layers of concrete, and in burned-out cars.
His alerts in Jersey were by no means the first occasion on which an alert of his led to the forensic discovery of tiny and ancient human skeletal fragments.
The programme featured the dogs but misrepresented them as simply finding DNA. There's your link. As long as no-one is throwing abuse around & we are discussing the facts of the case I really don't see the problem.
This is the sort of confusion I was referring to before. What is the point of Panorama talking about the dogs if they failed to point out what it is the dogs are trained to alert to? At best, it's shoddy journalism.
My point is, pretty much, that threads like this get full of myths from people, like yourself, who worship at the altar of these infallible dogs. You said before that they had never ever been wrong, except supposedly in the McCann case.
Now, you're saying that in the one other high-profile case they've had, which turned into a complete shambles, they weren't wrong, but it's just that the police haven't looked hard enough for the body or it's no longer there. i.e There can't possibly be any false positives.
It would be laughable, if it wasn't so tragic....
Nobody is worshipping at the altar of the dogs.
The programme mentioned the dogs but gave an unfactual account of what they were looking for. Whatever the dogs found it cannot be used as evidence merely as intelligence that would lead to the police investigating further, in the same way they might use an anonymous informer or a tapped phone conversation. it would be tragic to dismiss it out of hand though.
To clear up the Church search story here is a list of what the dogs checked -
Apartment 5A: The McCanns (28 April - 03 May 2007)
Ocean Club apartment: The McCanns (04 May - 01 July 2007)
Vista Mar Villa: The McCanns (02 July - 09 September 2007)
Apartment 5B: Matthew and Rachael Oldfield
Apartment 5D: Russell O'Brien/Jane Tanner
Apartment 5H: David Payne/Fiona Payne/Dianne Webster
Praia da Luz: The beach area indicated by Danie Krugel, using an iron tool, created by Mark Harrison, that punctures the soil to allow smells to exit.
Praia da Luz: Buildings, abandoned/in construction, ruins, waterways, entrances to sewers, beach, vegetation around the village, including the volcanic rock "Rocha Negra".
Casa Liliana - Robert Murats property
Vehicle 1: Blue Opel Corsa*- hire car (James Gorrod)
Vehicle 2: Fiat Punto (Ralph Eveleigh – Murat's uncle)
Vehicle 3: Peugot 205 (Robert Murat)
Vehicle 4: Renault Scenic - hire car (The McCanns)
Vehicle 5: Skoda Fabia (Michaela Walczuch)
Vehicle 6: Volkswagen Transporter (Jenny Murat)
Vehicle 7: Nissan Patrol (Luís António)
Vehicle 8: Volkswagen Passat (Luís António)
Vehicle 9: Audi A4 (Segei Malinka)
Vehicle 10: Renault Kangoo (Luís António)
I can find no mention of the church search so I would say it is a myth/joke.
I think the original Portuguese sniffer dogs followed a trail from Apartment 5A to somewhere near to the church, but I've never heard of Eddie and Keela having been to the church either.
NO , they are not . Read the whole thread again and count the post that are saying that . Then prove your point
You are deliberetly making mountains of molehills and its posts like yours thjat will get this closed .But maybe that is your intention . Two pages ago you were not coming back ??My opinion is you are baiting and provoking other posters .
The programme featured the dogs but misrepresented them as simply finding DNA. There's your link. As long as no-one is throwing abuse around & we are discussing the facts of the case I really don't see the problem.
I made this point last night. The dogs were not looking for DNA. That would be pointless as, after nearly a weeks stay, there would bound to be some trace of saliva, hair etc. the programme was being deliberately misleading imo.
Anyway, I've been away a few hours and I'm really surprised this thread hasn't disappeared as there seemed to be 1 or 2 people attempting to get it removed by deliberately prevoking arguements. Well done posters for not rising to the bait and to DS for letting people talk about the programme sensibly.
My point is, pretty much, that threads like this get full of myths from people, like yourself, who worship at the altar of these infallible dogs. You said before that they had never ever been wrong, except supposedly in the McCann case.
Now, you're saying that in the one other high-profile case they've had, which turned into a complete shambles, they weren't wrong, but it's just that the police haven't looked hard enough for the body or it's no longer there. i.e There can't possibly be any false positives.
It would be laughable, if it wasn't so tragic....
I have only stated facts about the situation. I have tried to clear up myths (like the church story on the previous page). The dog in Jersey did not claim a coconut shell was human bones. The case in Jersey is another controversial & in some peoples eyes unresolved case. It's relevance here is negligible other than the fact one of the dogs used detected cadaver smell, a detection that has not been disproved.
As to whether the dogs have ever been wrong I will clarify - when both the cadaver & blood dogs have detected in the same area (as was the case with the McCanns) it has led to recovery of a body/a conviction except in this case. Read the story on the previous page for how the dogs worked in tandem. Eddie first, then Keela. Eddie finds the haystack, Keela the needle in it.
It's not a case of any want to divert from any abduction for me, it's an acknowledgement that just because you make a bad choice that leads to an even worse outcome that causes you pain - it doesn't absolve you of the initial decision.
The leaving the children was a pattern of behaviour over the whole course of the holiday. It wasn't a one off - they were up to at least the 4th time so any doubts/unease they may have had initially had been well suppressed.
To me, you can't seperate the 2 events - one follows as a consequence of the other, however much it may be wished it didn't.
The real perpetrator of the crime must, as you say, be laughing. Not just at getting away with it but at the appalling attitude shown by so many fellow citizens of the country the McCanns come from. Such sympathy, such compassion, such solidarity. Such sordid speculation
Vitriol and commenting on neglect and carelessness are two very differnt things .If you see vitriol by all means point it out ,but all you seem to do is have a generic comment for all who dont agree with you and fire the word vitriol at it all .
Because that's what it is. And I'll go further: vitriol unsupported by a single shred of fact. Oh, and I'm STILL waiting for the motive
True - but check how these dogs are trained, what they are trained to detect & what their success rate is - every time they have detected evidence it has led to a conviction/the recovery of a body...with one exception. These are not just everyday dogs, they are insured for thousands & have been used around the world by many police forces. This is why the Portuguese Police brought them in.
Little fact for you - the dogs were exposed to 5 apartments, their contents & 10 vehicles & their contents. Every item they detected cadaver scent/blood on belonged to the McCanns or was in their apartment or car.
Every item.
Okay, Have it your way. They killed Madeleine just before they went to dinner. And then, somehow, they disposed of the body in about an hour flat and the whole world has found no trace. Well, aren't they the clever ones.
I made this point last night. The dogs were not looking for DNA. That would be pointless as, after nearly a weeks stay, there would bound to be some trace of saliva, hair etc. the programme was being deliberately misleading imo.
Anyway, I've been away a few hours and I'm really surprised this thread hasn't disappeared as there seemed to be 1 or 2 people attempting to get it removed by deliberately prevoking arguements. Well done posters for not rising to the bait and to DS for letting people talk about the programme sensibly.
Yes, its now evident and I for one wont take that bait .I suggest not to rise to it now as its blatant .,
Are they? I am seriously tempted to do an alert on you.
People like you don't help public opinion on them at all.
Stating it's irresponsible to leave young children at home alone is not the same as calling somebody a murderer. Just to clarify for you.
That's fine with me. What is being written on here is not only disgusting, it is so hypocritical. You want to cast aspersions, throw theories around, but you balk at admitting you are accusing the McCanns of murder? Should you not have the courage of your convictions rather than all the sly innuendo?
Yes, its now evident and I for one wont take that bait .I suggest not to rise to it now as its blatant .,
Neither will I. This method is so transparent. If nobody takes the bait, more people will have the chance to read this important information about the dogs, police files etc.
Because that's what it is. And I'll go further: vitriol unsupported by an fact. Oh, and I'll STILL waiting for the motive
A motive for what?
I don't think they murdered her, I do think that thus far the evidence points to her having died locally to the apartment. The police dealing with the case also believe this to be true.
I am open to the theory that she may have been snatched and is possibly still alive somewhere but unfortunately ( for Madeleine ) that theory just isn't very believable.
You aren't making a particularly compelling argument for the Mccanns tbh.
I am glad I did not watch the program - sounds like another brainwashing exercise in favour of the McCanns. Fortunately, most of the population are not stupid and are able to find the real facts from other sources.
If you have some REAL FACTS about the McCann's being involved in their daughter's dissapearance, please could you share them with us? It is not nice to hide in the shadows whilst pointing the figure.
Okay, Have it your way. They killed Madeleine just before they went to dinner. And then, somehow, they disposed of the body in about an hour flat and the whole world has found no trace. Well, aren't they the clever ones.
Did I say that ? Nope. As I stated before I will not speculate on motive as it is akin too gossip (& we know how you hate that). The facts are the facts here, they are so far unexplained. Make of them what you will.
On a side note if it wasn't tipping down with rain I probably would have gone out today. I get out plenty, Thank-you.
Same here. But they were with friends who also had children who were left alone in their apartments whilst they all had dinner together. I think it was a case of them all thinking it was an ok thing to do. It's only when something like this happens that you realise the folly of your actions. If nothing had happened, lessons probably wouldn't have been learned.
When we were on holiday staying in a hotel (in the UK) a housekeeper was on patrol, listening for any crying children, whilst parents ate in the restaurant downstairs.
How nice to read such a sane post. I think you are absolutely right - they all got lulled into a false sense of security and took a foolish decision. A decision which they relive every day of their lives and which must haunt them. However, for posters on here to then make the leap from irresponsibility to involvement in their daughter's disappearance is totally shocking and I cannot for the life of me imagine why people are doing it. Is it they are desperate for something to gossip about or are people now so cynical that they are incapable of compassion.
Contrast all this with the Shirin Dewani case. Okay, we haven't caught the bloke with his hands on the trigger, but the evidence against him is surely fairly damning? And yet it's the McCann's who are subjected to this campaign of abuse. So horrible, says so much about our society today.
If you have some REAL FACTS about the McCann's being involved in their daughter's dissapearance, please could you share them with us? It is not nice to hide in the shadows whilst pointing the figure.
Comments
But without Madeleine either alive or not, or evidence of another body - then the alerts are what the alerts are.
The dogs alerted at various places and so far no reason for those alerts have been found.
Just because there isn't a body linked to the alerts as yet, doesn't mean they are wrong or can be dismissed as false positive - it just means that the dogs alerted as yet reason unknown.
The dogs alert at where a body has been (if a body was in plain view, then to be fair then a human pair of eyes would do just as well :cool:). Just because it isn't there any more doesn't mean it was never there - but that is up to the humans detectives to decide, not the dogs.
What about the rational ones like me:
People who hope that Maddie is still alive but beleive the McCanns are irresponsible parents
Eddie, the same ‘enhanced victim recovery dog’ or EVRD used in both Portugal and Jersey, does not react to human remains per se. He did not react to that stupid coconut shell, but to the presence of human cadaverine, aka ‘the smell of death’. This is a complex compound only released by human bodies post mortem, and Eddie has been trained to detect it in the most feebly residual traces. He doesn’t smell bones or bodies – just this grimly unique matter.
In demonstrations and criminal investigations, he has detected cadaverine under water, beneath thick layers of concrete, and in burned-out cars.
His alerts in Jersey were by no means the first occasion on which an alert of his led to the forensic discovery of tiny and ancient human skeletal fragments.
This is the sort of confusion I was referring to before. What is the point of Panorama talking about the dogs if they failed to point out what it is the dogs are trained to alert to? At best, it's shoddy journalism.
Nobody is worshipping at the altar of the dogs.
The programme mentioned the dogs but gave an unfactual account of what they were looking for. Whatever the dogs found it cannot be used as evidence merely as intelligence that would lead to the police investigating further, in the same way they might use an anonymous informer or a tapped phone conversation. it would be tragic to dismiss it out of hand though.
I think the original Portuguese sniffer dogs followed a trail from Apartment 5A to somewhere near to the church, but I've never heard of Eddie and Keela having been to the church either.
But most people are spelling irresponsible MURDER
I would have thought he needed to get out more
NO , they are not . Read the whole thread again and count the post that are saying that . Then prove your point
You are deliberetly making mountains of molehills and its posts like yours thjat will get this closed .But maybe that is your intention . Two pages ago you were not coming back ??My opinion is you are baiting and provoking other posters .
I made this point last night. The dogs were not looking for DNA. That would be pointless as, after nearly a weeks stay, there would bound to be some trace of saliva, hair etc. the programme was being deliberately misleading imo.
Anyway, I've been away a few hours and I'm really surprised this thread hasn't disappeared as there seemed to be 1 or 2 people attempting to get it removed by deliberately prevoking arguements. Well done posters for not rising to the bait and to DS for letting people talk about the programme sensibly.
I have only stated facts about the situation. I have tried to clear up myths (like the church story on the previous page). The dog in Jersey did not claim a coconut shell was human bones. The case in Jersey is another controversial & in some peoples eyes unresolved case. It's relevance here is negligible other than the fact one of the dogs used detected cadaver smell, a detection that has not been disproved.
As to whether the dogs have ever been wrong I will clarify - when both the cadaver & blood dogs have detected in the same area (as was the case with the McCanns) it has led to recovery of a body/a conviction except in this case. Read the story on the previous page for how the dogs worked in tandem. Eddie first, then Keela. Eddie finds the haystack, Keela the needle in it.
Are they? I am seriously tempted to do an alert on you.
People like you don't help public opinion on them at all.
Stating it's irresponsible to leave young children at home alone is not the same as calling somebody a murderer. Just to clarify for you.
The real perpetrator of the crime must, as you say, be laughing. Not just at getting away with it but at the appalling attitude shown by so many fellow citizens of the country the McCanns come from. Such sympathy, such compassion, such solidarity. Such sordid speculation
Because that's what it is. And I'll go further: vitriol unsupported by a single shred of fact. Oh, and I'm STILL waiting for the motive
Okay, Have it your way. They killed Madeleine just before they went to dinner. And then, somehow, they disposed of the body in about an hour flat and the whole world has found no trace. Well, aren't they the clever ones.
Yes, its now evident and I for one wont take that bait .I suggest not to rise to it now as its blatant .,
That's fine with me. What is being written on here is not only disgusting, it is so hypocritical. You want to cast aspersions, throw theories around, but you balk at admitting you are accusing the McCanns of murder? Should you not have the courage of your convictions rather than all the sly innuendo?
Neither will I. This method is so transparent. If nobody takes the bait, more people will have the chance to read this important information about the dogs, police files etc.
A motive for what?
I don't think they murdered her, I do think that thus far the evidence points to her having died locally to the apartment. The police dealing with the case also believe this to be true.
I am open to the theory that she may have been snatched and is possibly still alive somewhere but unfortunately ( for Madeleine ) that theory just isn't very believable.
You aren't making a particularly compelling argument for the Mccanns tbh.
If you have some REAL FACTS about the McCann's being involved in their daughter's dissapearance, please could you share them with us? It is not nice to hide in the shadows whilst pointing the figure.
Did I say that ? Nope. As I stated before I will not speculate on motive as it is akin too gossip (& we know how you hate that). The facts are the facts here, they are so far unexplained. Make of them what you will.
On a side note if it wasn't tipping down with rain I probably would have gone out today. I get out plenty, Thank-you.
Excellent point.
How nice to read such a sane post. I think you are absolutely right - they all got lulled into a false sense of security and took a foolish decision. A decision which they relive every day of their lives and which must haunt them. However, for posters on here to then make the leap from irresponsibility to involvement in their daughter's disappearance is totally shocking and I cannot for the life of me imagine why people are doing it. Is it they are desperate for something to gossip about or are people now so cynical that they are incapable of compassion.
Contrast all this with the Shirin Dewani case. Okay, we haven't caught the bloke with his hands on the trigger, but the evidence against him is surely fairly damning? And yet it's the McCann's who are subjected to this campaign of abuse. So horrible, says so much about our society today.
There are loads of facts on this thread.
Okay, let's have them. Shall we start with Motive? Oh, and then go on to Means and Opportunity.