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Why I hate the Foxsat — anything better out there?
Grand Dizzy
Posts: 7,369 Forum Member
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The Humax Foxsat is generally regarded as one of the best Freesat PVRs on the market, which is why I bought one a couple of years ago. But personally, I can’t stand it. I haven’t even used it since I bought it, preferring instead to stick to my humble old Topfield+MyStuff Freeview box, which I love to pieces.
I wanted to make this thread to explain exactly what I hate about the Foxsat, and also to ask if anyone can recommend a Freesat PVR that I might like more, based on the complaints I have?
Reasons I hate the Humax Foxsat PVR
Overall, I would describe the Humax Foxsat as slow and cumbersome to use, with nasty little remote control buttons and a cold, impersonal on-screen interface that is all about style and not at all about function. Using it is an unpleasant and uninviting experience and I feel disconnected and out of control. And it’s a lottery as to whether anything will actually record or not since it doesn’t always warn you about conflicts.
I hope fans of the Humax will bear in mind this is just my personal opinion based on my own preferences and what matters to me. Many people obviously think it’s a great PVR, so it is for them. But for me, the Foxsat is a disgrace of a PVR.
I wonder if there is anything more suitable to my preferences on the market, or on its way?
I wanted to make this thread to explain exactly what I hate about the Foxsat, and also to ask if anyone can recommend a Freesat PVR that I might like more, based on the complaints I have?
Reasons I hate the Humax Foxsat PVR
- Channel order: You can’t re-arrange the order of the channels or delete channels! For me, this is a complete dealbreaker. I need to be able to set up the channels in my own order! There’s no way I want to have to wade through useless channels I never watch in order to get to my favourite channels. Not only that but I have my own preference of channel order and I don’t want someone else dictating the order to me! BBC News must be the first channel on the list, followed by all the BBC channels in the proper order, then the ITV channels, etc. The very thought of having all the channels randomly jumbled around in a random order, with +1 channels not next to their counterparts—that to me is almost nausiating!
- Non-Freesat mode useless: There is a way to re-arrange the channels and to access other free channels not on the official Freesat list, but this requires disabling “Freesat” mode, which means you lose the EPG and ability to record things in advance. Obviously, this is not an option as no one can use a TV that doesn’t have an EPG and can’t record things in advance!
- Unresponsive controls: The controls are really slow! Moving up and down through channels is slow. Jumping one page at a time is slow. Accessing different menus is slow. Rather than having an instant response to your button presses, the whole thing just feels sluggish and unresponsive.
- Series link only works sometimes: Series link only works with certain programmes. Presumably, the EPG data is flawed and incomplete on certain channels because I’m always having to manually set up a recording for every single episode of some programmes. Sometimes I do a series link and it will automatically record some episodes of a programme, but miss episodes shown on a different channel.
- Conflicts are allowed to happen: If you set up a recording that conflicts with other recordings, it sometimes warns you that it’s not going to record, but most of the time it doesn’t: it just acts like it will record fine! So you think you’ve set up your favourite TV show to record, but then when you come to watch it, you get a recording of 0 minutes long with the message “Recording has failed due to a conflict with a higher priority recording” (or something like that). Any decent PVR should not allow you to set up a recording that will not record due to conflicts. If there’s a conflict, the PVR should immediately flag this up and warn you and offer you a choice of which of the three you want to discard, or show you a screen with all the recordings around that time so you can see what’s going on.
- No way to set recording priorites: Also there is no way to control recording priorities. Something I would think absolutely essential for most people, so you never miss your favourite programmes, but you are happy to miss other, less important programmes.
- Recordings often fail: Recordings often fail for “an unknown reason”.
- No recording of buffer: Not only does hitting record not automatically record what’s already buffered, but there isn’t even an option to record what’s in the buffer, or to record from the start of the programme. Being able to record what’s already buffered is one of the big selling points of owning PVR. Like being able to record two things at once, recording from the buffer is what sets PVRs apart from VHS!
- Crazy playback timeline: The playback timeline is just insane! For instance, when you pause live TV, what you should see is a timeline across the screen with the playhead on the far right and the line to the left of it representing the recording in the buffer, so you travel go back across that. With the Foxsat, however, what you get is a timeline bar that fills most of the width of the screen, but the vast majority of it is blank, with only a tiny blue strip on the left representing what’s in your buffer. So when you travel back and forth along your buffer, the playhead is only moving across a matter of a few pixels and it’s very hard to see where you are. It’s just baffling!
- Poor time skip controls: When it comes to the time jump buttons, there are only two and you have little option in terms of how far they let you skip.
- Hard to delete: Deleting a recording is a very drawn-out affair. Every single recording you make needs to be deleted at some point, so deletion is one of the most essential and central functions a PVR has, but rather than having a dedicated delete button, or an auto-delete option for programmes you’ve watched most of—the Foxsat makes you go through menus to delete things. If I recall correctly, you have to press about 5 button presses just to delete something!
- Bad interface: The interface is really badly designed with regards to function. You can only see seven channels on screen at any time and they’re squashed down the bottom, with lots of useless space at the top. Compare this with the MyStuff EPG which makes good use of space and allows 11 channels on screen at once (this is the best screenshot I could find, which gives the general idea). Considering this PVR is capable of showing HD video, you might have thought it would provide an alternative HD menu showing far more on-screen information.
- No search function: It has a search function, but this only allows you to see what’s on. There is no feature to automatically search and record all programmes whose titles or descriptions contain certain words or phrases (e.g. if I wanted to record every programme with “got talent” in the title).
- Badly designed remote: To me, the design of the remote is really important, but the design here has clearly been overlooked. There’s row after row of identically-shaped buttons, making finding the required button a difficult process, especially in the dark. You have to work out where the button you want is, rather than the button having a unique position and shape and therefore finding the button being instinctive. To make things worse, the whole remote looks almost identical upside-down, meaning you often even have to stop and think which way up it should be when you pick it up.
- Remote has limited range: Remote control has a very limited range. While many remotes can be used pointing in almost any direction, with the Foxsat, you have to aim it dead on at the PVR at just the right angle. Tilt it too high up and you can’t use it.
- Slow transferring files: Transferring files via the USB port is so excrutiatingly slow, with each hour-long programme taking a good 10 minutes to transfer, and all the PVR controls being locked out during file transfer! This means if you want to copy a bunch of programmes to PC, you’ll have to leave them copying overnight. Oh, and HD programmes normally can’t be copied because their filesize exceeds 2Gb. So there’s no way to keep HD programmes forever.
- No channel logos: Not essential, but as a graphical person, I really like to see the logos of the channels in the EPG. But, to be honest, most PVRs don’t have this so maybe I’m being picky here?
- Lack of options: There just aren’t really any options and no way to set the box up exactly to your own personal preferences. For example, how many channels are shown in the EPG at once; how much time the EPG spans and hence how much truncation occurs of programme titles.
- Bugs: The box has so many bugs (mostly minor ones), yet Humax clearly does not care and haven’t issued a single software update since I bought the box several years ago. It’s shocking.
- A minor complaint: you can’t pause on any frame; only on keyframes.
- A minor complaint: absolutely no customisation of the appearance. If you use the Foxsat, you’d better like grey and orange!
Overall, I would describe the Humax Foxsat as slow and cumbersome to use, with nasty little remote control buttons and a cold, impersonal on-screen interface that is all about style and not at all about function. Using it is an unpleasant and uninviting experience and I feel disconnected and out of control. And it’s a lottery as to whether anything will actually record or not since it doesn’t always warn you about conflicts.
I hope fans of the Humax will bear in mind this is just my personal opinion based on my own preferences and what matters to me. Many people obviously think it’s a great PVR, so it is for them. But for me, the Foxsat is a disgrace of a PVR.
I wonder if there is anything more suitable to my preferences on the market, or on its way?
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Comments
You can delete channels on a HUMAX pvr, It is one of the many things I like about the HUMAX FREESAT HD and the HDR, as for a lot of your other comments I would disagree with them as well, but we are all have our own opinions
I suspect your problems with conflicts and failed recordings are down to either the Foxsat not being in dual cable mode (detected at first install only) or a poor signal from the freesat transponder. We record a lot using accurate record and where a conflict does occur (recording two and watching a third) the conflict resolution ifs fine - jumps to one of the programmes being recorded. failed recordings are very very rare on my Foxsat.
I would take a look at the new Humax HDR-1000S due out in a few weeks - from what I have read it looks a very nice piece of kit.
Wrong again,You can adjust the skip funtions to quite a few different time setting's, I think you should get the HUMAX BOX out again and look at just what it can do, I do know the box you are using now is good but I would rate the HUMAX HDR and HD boxes to be as good now, but that is just my personal opinion
Among many other things it means you can view non-freesat channels in Freesat mode and set manual timers.
As for something better how about the Humax HDR-1000s ?
Is it going to be 'better'? - Humax have historically produced decent gear, reasonable reliability - but they are generally difficult to use, have poor interfaces, and abysmally badly designed cheap remote controls. Other common problems would be slow operation and EXTREMELY slow release of software updates.
But as of now, Humax are probably still the best Freesat boxes?.
The last software update took 4 day's from finding the proplem to suppling the update, I call that very quick and very good
Here is a quote from a AVF post (leeboy22001)
"Had a play with the 1TB white version today at IBC trade show (apparently only one made), and was mighty impressive :-), aesthetics may not appeal to all, myself included, but gui, speed and functionality was great :-). Gui was slick, and responsive, and very eye candy :-)."
Hmmm. It is a couple of years since I used it so I must have got this wrong. But to me, the ability to delete channels alone is almost pointless if you can’t re-arragne the channel order. A PVR with a jumbled up random channel order is just a non-starter for me.
I don’t know how so many people tolerate Sky—they force you to have a really crazy jumbled up channel order with loads of advert channels mixed in! And people pay for this!
Well my main complaint that there are only two skip buttons, but I do seem to recall there being a limited number of skip options. If I recall correctly, there are only about three or four different skip length options, which seems pretty limiting to me. You can’t skip 2 seconds back, 5 seconds forward, 3 minutes forward, 5 minutes forward etc. You should be able to specify the precise time in seconds you wanted to skip. With the Foxsat, I just don’t feel in control and a lot of the time end up having to use fast forward or rewind controls, which seems very old-fashioned and needless these days when we have the technology to just jump around the amount we wish.
Well this is very encouraging, thanks, I will try this!
Sorry wrong again, the HUMAX HDR, there have been updates for bugs and improvments ever since it came out, it is another thing I have liked about the HUMAX HDR Sorry if I seem to keep picking faults with your comments but there have been bug fixes and updates and improvments
You can jump instantly to any point in a recording by simply punching in the timecode.
eg 0025 goes straight to 25 minutes.
Did not know that thanks:)
I've read of people getting angry with the remote and response times and it all being down to the thin strip of plastic which sits over the infra red receiver.
There was an update a few weeks ago during the Olympics.
IIRC there was a problem at one point with updating the box if it only had a single satellite feed (or had only detected a single feed at initial setup.) Based on what you've said above regards failed recordings and REPASSAC's reply it may be that the box is in single cable mode.
If you do actually have two feeds connected (to the outer two tuner connections on the back) I'd note down a copy of the schedule, perform a factory reset (Menu -> Setup > Factory Reset), verify that two cables are detected as you go through initial setup, then re-check for firmware updates.
Alternatively you could download and install via USB from here: http://beta.humaxonline.co.uk/downloads/foxsat-hdr. But you'd still want to reset it to ensure both cables have been detected.
Edit: in light of the advice below about signal on Freesat home transponder, just be aware that if you do have a bad signal on that you may not be able to re-tune the box in after reset until the signal issue is corrected.
Latest version is 1.00.21 27 Jul 2012 released in 4 days to rectify recording problems with the Olympic HD streams.
Some questions
Do you leave your box in sby overnight ?
Have you one or two cables connected ?
What's the version number of your loader and Software ?
Whats your system ID ?
See #3 - I would really check that you have a good signal on the freesat transponder (channel 999) a poor signal could explain a lot of your problems. The transponder is on a different satellite from most freesat channels.. Software updates are applied automatically, assuming you leave your HDR in standby overnight, which it should be for good functioning.
GT see we have the same thoughts. Beaten to it.
This required an updated loader to fix. A 2yr old box is very unlikely to have a loader that old. Hence the list of questions
Not on my Foxsat, finish watching programme, press OK select Delete, Press OK press EXIT.
Okay, that's still 4 but it becomes second nature and takes about 1 second, hardly a marathon.
Using the custom firmware, and a macro button on the webif remote it's a single button.
In reality, no it isnt. It's ancient.
Why is it ancient, may be you can give a few examples ? and do not forget the new HUMAX PVR box is out now
Things I Dislike
My conclusionsThe Humax is a very competent and capable PVR. It has a few quirks but then I've known many PVRs and they all have quirks. At least in my experience the Humax is reliable.
The Topfield running MyStuff lets you prioritise timers as well as offering automatic and manual clash resolution. The gold standard for PVRs in my experience. Just a shame it is now such an old SD only box so gets less use here now. An HD version would have been a killer machine.
I also have a 9300T and, when I wanted to save the Sky+ subscription, bought the Foxsat partly because I assumed that the interface would be similar. They're not: if you removed the identification from both boxes nobody would believe they were made by the same company.
Channel order
I was surprised that, unlike on the 9300, you can't order channels to your preference. This was one of the things which bugged me about Sky but at least they offered favourites.
Yes, you can delete channels but they return the next day.
Unresponsive controls
The problem I notice most is when first going into the Guide. The Foxsat insists on refreshing the EPG at this point and that's when the response is poor. After thirty seconds or so, once refreshed, response is better. The EPG should be - and, I'm told, is - refreshed in the background.
Conflicts are allowed to happen
My experience is the opposite: the Foxsat will sometimes refuse to allow me to schedule a recording because it thinks there's a conflict. On these occasions I've not been able to see what the conflict is and the Foxsat doesn't tell me! In this situation Sky+ lists all three programmes with a timeline and allows you to cancel one of them. The Foxsat merely gives me a confusing, unhelpful and unexplained message.
No recording of buffer
Yes, this is a really odd omission. The recording is all there: you just can't choose to save it. Both the 9300 and Sky+ allow rewinding into the buffer and saving it.
Crazy playback timeline
In respect of live TV, I agree. It seems that it's fixed to show the entire two hours. That's fine if there's actually two hours in the buffer but if you've just switched channels then the effect is as Grand Dizzy describes. The 9300 is much better in respect of the timeline but is poor at showing the current position in the buffer. Indeed, on the 9300 it's not possible to determine whether you're watching live TV or the buffer.The Foxsat gives a much better indication by using words like "play" and "live" in the timeline.
Hard to delete
Not only does it take five keypresses to delete a file but the menu option says "Delete a file" when what it means is "Delete this file". It should just say "Delete". And sometimes the cursor isn't on the programme you've just watched: great care is needed to ensure you delete the intended programme.
Bad interface
Indeed: almost half of every screen is wasted. This is especially annoying in the schedule, which doesn't include the channel name in the table - even though there's plenty of space - and you need to scroll through the list and move your eyes from the bottom of the screen to the top each time you want to see the channel name.
No search function
As Grand Dizzy then goes on to say, there is a search function but it's cumbersome. At first I thought that the list of previous search terms was a really good idea. Until I discovered that it gets deleted every night.
Badly designed remote
My pet hate is the weird layout of the play/rew/ff etc keys. All remotes I've ever seen, from the earliest VCR remotes, through DVD, Sky+, and even the 9300, have Rewind, then Play, then FF: all on the same line and in close proximity to each other. The Foxsat has Play at the far left of one row and Rew/FF below it. Very confusing.
A good thing about the Foxsat is that, unlike the 9300, there are no buttons hidden under a sliding flap.
Remote has limited range
Agreed. The Foxsat remote is the worst I've ever used. Yes, I have removed both films. I wondered at first if the problem is that the IR receiver is buried in a tunnel because of the thick flap but leaving the flap down doesn't improve things
Can’t pause on any frame
I too find that frustrating. To be fair, not since frame advance on a previous VCR have I seen a PVR that works properly in this respect.
Having commented on Grand Dizzy's observations I'll add some of my own.
The first problem I had with the Foxsat was that it didn't work reliably: it often failed to schedule the next programme in a series link after recording the first; and the thumbnails were always blank. After advice on here it seems that there's an undocumented and unimplemented requirement to put the box in standby overnight so it can do housekeeping. I hadn't set it up to do this principally because I don't want automatic updates. As the 9300 has an option to turn those off I was surprised that the Foxsat doesn't.
The answer to the channel ordering/deletion issue should be favourites but, unlike the 9300, the Foxsat's favourites are utterly useless. All they are is one or more lists of channel names: it's not possible to view the EPG just for a favourites list, or even see what's on now/next just on a favourites list.
When I choose to schedule a recording the first thing I get is an annoying and unnecessary prompt about SD/HD. Is it not obvious that I want to record the channel I'm looking at in the EPG?
The volume control on the remote should work the TV regardless of what mode is set (as Sky does and One4All used to call "punch-through"). It's frustrating to have to keep switching between modes to adjust the volume.
The box claims to be 500Gb. Leaving aside the usual issue of disk manufacturers lying about capacity, the box comes preconfigured with 26Gb of space unusable because it's reserved for music/photos (though what this is for I don't know). Actual capacity for recordings is about 463Gb. I'm told that the music/photo space can be reduced to 1Gb but the point is that it shouldn't be set up as it is. By default, all the space should be available for recordings.
Many of the fonts used are too small and therefore difficult to read; for example, the current position in the timeline. Conversely, some, such as the channel name in the top half of the screen, are unnecessarily large and therefore waste space.
Lastly, the User's Manual. This is one respect in which the 9300 and the Foxsat are alike: both manuals are all but useless. They were clearly written by someone whose first language isn't English and who was so familiar with the product that he didn't feel the need to explain why you might want to do something, or the consequences of doing or not doing it. Both manuals omit many important features and are of the style "Delete a file. You can delete a file. Press the Delete key.".
Having said all that, do I hate the Foxsat as Grand Dizzy does? No, not at all. It's a good replacement for Sky+ which will pay for itself in six months or so. Mind you, if it wasn't for the help of people on here and My Humax Org it's likely I would have returned it soon after purchase because it will not work reliably unless it's in standby overnight and therefore you cannot prevent automatic updates.
To provide some balance in this otherwise negative post, there are some things which I really like about the Foxsat.
The folders/file manager. This makes for a much tidier and easier to navigate UI for recordings.
The Prev/Next buttons in the EPG, enabling a view of two hours/one day forward/back. (The 9300 has similar functions but the buttons are hidden under the flap.)
Presentation of the timeline, especially when watching the buffer. The 9300's is hard to understand but the Foxsat's is clear and meaningful.
The programmable remote (but see above). Having been used to the Sky remote I'd resigned myself to having to have three remotes handy (TV, 9300, Foxsat). With the Foxsat remote I can leave the TV remote in the drawer.
No buttons hidden under a sliding flap on the remote.
Catch-up TV.
What three things would I like Humax to implement to improve my user experience?
1. Remote control volume "punch-through"
2. A proper favourites system
3. The ability to disable auto update.