As ER said, all she heard was rumours and she is often approached with rumours which cannot be acted on without evidence.
ER works with real child protection issues and has to liaise with the police and be taken seriously by them. As such if she or her organisation were to approach the police every time they hear a rumour and say 'I spoke to Betty who spoke to her neighbour Doris who does the teas at church with Wilf who says his late Mumused to work in the hospital shop and she said she'd been told by a retired porter that one of the nurses had heard from a ward sister that X off the telly fiddles with kids'. There's no evidence there, nothing for the police to work with. And if she went to the police with every single bit of tittle tattle she heard she and her organisation would be discredited when they were approaching them with genuine substantiated cases.
And as far as this quote goes:
Well that makes Shy Keenan even more culpable as she admits to having the information and says she just told Esther Rantzen, she didn't tell the police or the other prominent child abuse campaigners she admits to knowing. Why would she expect other people to pass on fourth or fifth hand rumours from her when she has a phone herself and is perfectly capable of reporting it?
Thats exactly what I thought when I read the article - why didn't she inform the police, ER isn't the police.
If I had thought anything suspicious about someone abusing a child or any vulnerable person the first thing I would do is telephone the police who I would think would investigate and pass information onto the Child Protection team and then go on from there. I wouldn't ring Esther Rantzen or approach her at a meeting or tittle tattle with my next door neighbour.
Look I'm not going to reply to you again but that telephone conversation was posted before in this thread either by you or by someone else.
I quite frankly think its irrelevant to the issue at hand it just shows a lot of people, if its a true transcription of an actual telephone conversation, were stupid enough to trust him. Like I said not all the people involved with him or those that employed him or trusted him are complicit or involved in his criminal behaviour. Some are otherwise he couldn't have behaved the way he did but NOT ALL.
Why was he giving marital advice to them? how did he get so close to them? who advised the royals to trust him?
Look I'm not going to reply to you again but that telephone conversation was posted before in this thread either by you or by someone else.
I quite frankly think its irrelevant to the issue at hand it just shows a lot of people, if its a true transcription of an actual telephone conversation, were stupid enough to trust him. Like I said not all the people involved with him or those that employed him or trusted him are complicit or involved in his criminal behaviour. Some are otherwise he couldn't have behaved the way he did but NOT ALL.
I think it IS relevent as it is yet another example of the power and influence wielded by JS
She saying Savile 'fooled the nation' and that people didn't want to know. She's denying ever knowing anything, and that if she knew she would've reported him. She's suggesting it was a more innocent time.
Philip Schofield rightly pointing out that a kid being in the studio and asking for an autograph is one thing, but taking a kid off to your dressing room is odd.
Esther says her conscience is clear. She was a young researcher etc etc.(she wasn't a young researcher in the 70s, she was presenting That's Life), her one regret is that people didn't speak up more (calling Childline, for example), she has no memory of being told of any allegations.
Sorry not convinced with her 'performance' at all .
I wondered about her saying that NAPAC were totally behind her when it was reported yesterday that her photo and bio had been dropped from their website .
I agree. I think Esther's been given a bad rap. Childline IS her life's work and she made a huge difference by raising awareness. She was one of hundreds it seems to me, who heard "rumours" and chose not to pursue it. Why single her out when she knew the machinations of the BBC well.
People may dislike her personally and think she full of self importamnce etc, but she's done more for abused kids than most.
I hope to god that her charity doesn't suffer because of this. We need Childline.
She failed all the children by doing nothing ! These interviews she's doing now are just a pathetic attempt at damage limitation for Ester's shattered persona.
I agree 100% - why just about everyone wants to make her a scapegoat is beyond me. She has worked tirelessly for many years it's very easy with hindsight to say 'oooh but she didn't act on this or that' - hindsight is wonderful. JS had everyone fooled. Don't understand at all why Esther Rantzen is being vilified.
Because she was the main name / face of these child protection agencies and she failed miserably IMHO.
Exactly, and as she also said, rumours are just rumours and she is being constantly approached with allegations about TV presenters, singers, members of the royal family, politicians, actors and anybody else you can imagine and told there are rumours about them being paedophiles, but without evidence they simply remain as rumours and nothing can be done about them.
I'm pretty sure all those "rumours" doing the rounds weren't all about "kiddie fiddlers" though . They are the rumours she SHOULD have been following up specifically.
You're absolutely right and he had keys to one of the most feared mental institutions!!!??? I'd like to know what the royals think, after all was this not a matter of national security?:eek:
Why was he giving marital advice to them? how did he get so close to them? who advised the royals to trust him?
I don't think anyone did.
I think it just shows how vulnerable Princess Diana was during those times and how manipulative JS was to ingratiate himself into those situations. As I recall Diana didn't take any notice of Royal Advisors to her detriment in the end i.e. her tell all book, so I am sure that noone that would have thought it unethical would have known about how that relationship with JS had become so intimate.
Just as Charles has made some dreadful decisions in the past Diana did the same that era was full of Royal marriage cockups when it came to relationships it was a no brainer but we know that now in hindsight.
As ER said, all she heard was rumours and she is often approached with rumours which cannot be acted on without evidence.
ER works with real child protection issues and has to liaise with the police and be taken seriously by them. As such if she or her organisation were to approach the police every time they hear a rumour and say 'I spoke to Betty who spoke to her neighbour Doris who does the teas at church with Wilf who says his late Mumused to work in the hospital shop and she said she'd been told by a retired porter that one of the nurses had heard from a ward sister that X off the telly fiddles with kids'. There's no evidence there, nothing for the police to work with. And if she went to the police with every single bit of tittle tattle she heard she and her organisation would be discredited when they were approaching them with genuine substantiated cases.
And as far as this quote goes:
Well that makes Shy Keenan even more culpable as she admits to having the information and says she just told Esther Rantzen, she didn't tell the police or the other prominent child abuse campaigners she admits to knowing. Why would she expect other people to pass on fourth or fifth hand rumours from her when she has a phone herself and is perfectly capable of reporting it?
I haven't defended Shy Keenan.
My point about ER is that she should have been aware that when she stepped forward to say that she'd heard rumours over the years (not necessarily in connection with the Shy Keenan incident)....would then be held to account for why she didn't act in some way on them - whether that is pushing for an investigation or doing some investigative journalism of her own.
She set herself up to be picked apart over her apparent lack of action, whether that is justified or not
Look I'm not going to reply to you again but that telephone conversation was posted before in this thread either by you or by someone else.
I quite frankly think its irrelevant to the issue at hand it just shows a lot of people, if its a true transcription of an actual telephone conversation, were stupid enough to trust him. Like I said not all the people involved with him or those that employed him or trusted him are complicit or involved in his criminal behaviour. Some are otherwise he couldn't have behaved the way he did but NOT ALL.
To be quite frank Princess Diana was a vulnerable person as well and her relationship with Charles was bad that sent her a bit loopy at times so in retrospect if that telephone call is true then Jimmy Savile did what he always did with anyone manipulate and abuse their trust. So I'd say that telephone conversation is evidence of his manipulation.
But the point is .. you do not KNOW this is the case.
As you say, not everybody was complicit. The royals may well not have been.
But nobodys asked them. Nobody knows. So you don't know its irrelevant.
But the point is .. you do not KNOW this is the case.
As you say, not everybody was complicit. The royals may well not have been.
But nobodys asked them. Nobody knows. So you don't know its irrelevant.
No but in my opinion it is.
I didn't say I know it!
If people want to keep muddying the waters with irrelevant relationships with influential people that JS had then go on do it but that's what the real culprits are probably hoping for so that they'll be so much shit to wade through they'll slip through the net.
Of course JS surrounded himself with these people that was part of his ploy and cover - don't you think a lot of people are embarrassed just because they trusted him because of his iconic status a status I might add the PUBLIC gave him. But if everybody just focuses on the people he used for subterfuge you'll miss the real perpetrators.
You got to weed out the Chaff hopefully that's what the police are doing. As for the independent inquiries I wouldn't put my hopes on those at all. Although I am happy Janet Smith is heading one of them up.
I think it just shows how vulnerable Princess Diana was during those times and how manipulative JS was to ingratiate himself into those situations. As I recall Diana didn't take any notice of Royal Advisors to her detriment in the end i.e. her tell all book, so I am sure that noone that would have thought it unethical would have known about how that relationship with JS had become so intimate.
Just as Charles has made some dreadful decisions in the past Diana did the same that era was full of Royal marriage cockups when it came to relationships it was a no brainer but we know that now in hindsight.
But it was Charles who asked JS to talk to Fergie about their marriage? No royal advisors obviously then?
If people want to keep muddying the waters with irrelevant relationships with influential people that JS had then go on do it but that's what the real culprits are probably hoping for so that they'll be so much shit to wade through they'll slip through the net.
Of course JS surrounded himself with these people that was part of his ploy and cover - don't you think a lot of people are embarrassed just because they trusted him because of his iconic status a status I might add the PUBLIC gave him. But if everybody just focuses on the people he used for subterfuge you'll miss the real perpetrators.
You got to weed out the Chaff hopefully that's what the police are doing. As for the independent inquiries I wouldn't put my hopes on those at all. Although I am happy Janet Smith is heading one of them up.
"If people want to keep muddying the waters with irrelevant relationships with influential people that JS had then go on do it"
If people want to keep muddying the waters with irrelevant relationships with influential people that JS had then go on do it but that's what the real culprits are probably hoping for so that they'll be so much shit to wade through they'll slip through the net.
Of course JS surrounded himself with these people that was part of his ploy and cover - don't you think a lot of people are embarrassed just because they trusted him because of his iconic status a status I might add the PUBLIC gave him. But if everybody just focuses on the people he used for subterfuge you'll miss the real perpetrators.
You got to weed out the Chaff hopefully that's what the police are doing. As for the independent inquiries I wouldn't put my hopes on those at all. Although I am happy Janet Smith is heading one of them up.
if your happy i am worried her wiki page seems to have a delited page i wonder why ??so ill go find out
"If people want to keep muddying the waters with irrelevant relationships with influential people that JS had then go on do it"
Excuse me. How do you know they are "irrelevant"?
The man was afforded protection at a very high level it would appear , so I think it's important for all avenues to be persued however irrelevent you might deem them to be.......
"If people want to keep muddying the waters with irrelevant relationships with influential people that JS had then go on do it"
Excuse me. How do you know they are "irrelevant"?
I don't know I never said I knew.
Its my opinion.
However that doesn't mean to say that some important and influential people aren't culprits too I'm sure there are some out there quaking in their boots hopefully.
But keep bandying everyone's name about from Prince Phillip to Tony Blair just muddies the waters in MY OPINION but if you think its relevant keep it up.
If I see that transcript posted again I think I'll scream though
The man was afforded protection at a very high level it would appear , so I think it's important for all avenues to be persued however irrelevent you might deem them to be.......
Blue on Blue.....Friendly Fire........
I agree with you, read my comment again and who I was responding to.
I think it is becoming pretty obiouvs that Savile had some hold over people....a pretty obvious hold over them (You tell on me or if I go down...so do you). And some of these people, are right at the "top".
That is "Logical". It is not Logical to assume that a lowly BBC DJ managed to get keys to hospitals, jails, and have investigation after investigation quashed....for 40 years....without someone covering for him.
I agree with you, read my comment again and who I was responding too.
I think it is becoming pretty obiouvs that Savile had some hold over people....a pretty obvious hold over them. And some of these people, are right at the "top".
That is "Logical". It is not Logical to assume that a lowly BBC DJ managed to get keys to hospitals, jails, and have investigation after investigation quashed....for 40 years....without someone covering for him.
Apologies - I was replying to the other poster but cocked up on the quoting bit !!:D
It was late in the evening in 1958 and in those days – long before he would become one of Britain’s best paid radio and television presenters – Jimmy Savile, a former professional wrestler, ran the Mecca Locarno Ballroom nightclub in his hometown of Leeds.
This was his domain and Savile, then aged 32, ruled it with a terrifying rod of iron. But that evening Savile was perturbed.
“He came in and just ignored us all, walked straight past us,” recalled Dennis Lemmon, one of the club’s bouncers but also Savile’s de facto personal bodyguard, “I remember saying: 'what’s up with him?’ and someone in the club replied: 'He’s up in court tomorrow – interfering with young girls. He’s worried’.”
Lemmon, now aged 80, saw Savile again three days later. He was back to his irrepressible self, the swagger restored. “He was really worried but everything was dropped. I was told he had paid them [the police] off. And apparently that wasn’t the first time either but I don’t know about that. He had a lot of friends though.
However that doesn't mean to say that some important and influential people aren't culprits too I'm sure there are some out there quaking in their boots hopefully.
But keep bandying everyone's name about from Prince Phillip to Tony Blair just muddies the waters in MY OPINION but if you think its relevant keep it up.
If I see that transcript posted again I think I'll scream though
this is bigger than the bbc far bigger than js go read about hollie greig read how this downs syndrome person medicaly cannot tell a lie she who she names i dont think this fourum is ready for this big name
Where did the telephone conversation transcript come from?
And that page makes not an ounce of sense to me regarding the JS issue please explain.
I have no idea either what that poster is trying to say. Here's a bit on Janet Smith that gives some relevant background info into her suitability to head this enquiry -
Twelve years ago, aged 61, Dame Janet took on the "colossal" job of leading the inquiry into the serial killer who murdered more than 200 people as a GP. The former judge, whose sympathetic manner helped her discuss painful memories with bereaved relatives at the public inquiry, had to sift through tens of thousands of statements and documents before reaching her conclusions.
As a judge she approved the landmark £500 million settlement for 30,000 miners suffering from "white finger" syndrome.
She has prior experience of chairing a public inquiry.
In 1991 she chaired the investigation into the ill-treatment of autistic children at Scotforth House, a local authority home in Lancaster.
How the hell did a 3rd rate DJ and self confessed thug get to wield so much power and influence in the NHS ??? (leaving aside his proclivities...) This is truly a national disgrace.
IN MY OPINION
Because people in general, people in authority and those that weren't took their eye off the ball.
It was a snowball effect - oh if so and so think's he okay then he must be and so it went on plus his ability to ingratiate himself as Narcissist into every crease and crack of society including media, politics and the ROYAL FAMILY!
That is not to say there are some that were in positions of authority that were complicit, enablers and quite frankly perpetrators too but in my opinion we have to be careful at tarring everyone that came into contact with JS with the same brush, Some are only guilty of being manipulated and being stupid and believing the PR that had snowballed over 6 decades.
I am disappointed that Nurses in charge of children that were vulnerable and in hospital didn't take it further but I could say that about all sorts of people that appear to be queasy in his presence but say nothing.
lucky legs the conversation was picked up by a radio ham or phone hacker its comonly known as the squidgygate tapes if you read the link at the top all will..................
Let's face it. Unless anyone here is taking part in the official investigations then nothing that is said here, by any of us anonymous internet users, is relevant.
Comments
Thats exactly what I thought when I read the article - why didn't she inform the police, ER isn't the police.
If I had thought anything suspicious about someone abusing a child or any vulnerable person the first thing I would do is telephone the police who I would think would investigate and pass information onto the Child Protection team and then go on from there. I wouldn't ring Esther Rantzen or approach her at a meeting or tittle tattle with my next door neighbour.
Why was he giving marital advice to them? how did he get so close to them? who advised the royals to trust him?
I think it IS relevent as it is yet another example of the power and influence wielded by JS
Sorry not convinced with her 'performance' at all .
I wondered about her saying that NAPAC were totally behind her when it was reported yesterday that her photo and bio had been dropped from their website .
She failed all the children by doing nothing ! These interviews she's doing now are just a pathetic attempt at damage limitation for Ester's shattered persona.
Because she was the main name / face of these child protection agencies and she failed miserably IMHO.
I'm pretty sure all those "rumours" doing the rounds weren't all about "kiddie fiddlers" though . They are the rumours she SHOULD have been following up specifically.
The Royals are a total irrelevance IMHO.
and was he not "vetted" before his Knighthood was conferred????
I don't think anyone did.
I think it just shows how vulnerable Princess Diana was during those times and how manipulative JS was to ingratiate himself into those situations. As I recall Diana didn't take any notice of Royal Advisors to her detriment in the end i.e. her tell all book, so I am sure that noone that would have thought it unethical would have known about how that relationship with JS had become so intimate.
Just as Charles has made some dreadful decisions in the past Diana did the same that era was full of Royal marriage cockups when it came to relationships it was a no brainer but we know that now in hindsight.
I haven't defended Shy Keenan.
My point about ER is that she should have been aware that when she stepped forward to say that she'd heard rumours over the years (not necessarily in connection with the Shy Keenan incident)....would then be held to account for why she didn't act in some way on them - whether that is pushing for an investigation or doing some investigative journalism of her own.
She set herself up to be picked apart over her apparent lack of action, whether that is justified or not
But the point is .. you do not KNOW this is the case.
As you say, not everybody was complicit. The royals may well not have been.
But nobodys asked them. Nobody knows. So you don't know its irrelevant.
yes but it seems he was given the royal nod .
knowing he for some reason fell out with prince philly
kinda puts charlie or the queen holding the can
No but in my opinion it is.
I didn't say I know it!
If people want to keep muddying the waters with irrelevant relationships with influential people that JS had then go on do it but that's what the real culprits are probably hoping for so that they'll be so much shit to wade through they'll slip through the net.
Of course JS surrounded himself with these people that was part of his ploy and cover - don't you think a lot of people are embarrassed just because they trusted him because of his iconic status a status I might add the PUBLIC gave him. But if everybody just focuses on the people he used for subterfuge you'll miss the real perpetrators.
You got to weed out the Chaff hopefully that's what the police are doing. As for the independent inquiries I wouldn't put my hopes on those at all. Although I am happy Janet Smith is heading one of them up.
But it was Charles who asked JS to talk to Fergie about their marriage? No royal advisors obviously then?
Hold on you're basing this on that transcript?
Have you verified that is an actual transcript of an actual conversation?
If you have what makes you think Diana was telling the truth?
"If people want to keep muddying the waters with irrelevant relationships with influential people that JS had then go on do it"
Excuse me. How do you know they are "irrelevant"?
if your happy i am worried her wiki page seems to have a delited page i wonder why ??so ill go find out
found this says it all coverup underway http://www.parliament.uk/edm/1991-92/657
The man was afforded protection at a very high level it would appear , so I think it's important for all avenues to be persued however irrelevent you might deem them to be.......
I don't know I never said I knew.
Its my opinion.
However that doesn't mean to say that some important and influential people aren't culprits too I'm sure there are some out there quaking in their boots hopefully.
But keep bandying everyone's name about from Prince Phillip to Tony Blair just muddies the waters in MY OPINION but if you think its relevant keep it up.
If I see that transcript posted again I think I'll scream though
Blue on Blue.....Friendly Fire........
I agree with you, read my comment again and who I was responding to.
I think it is becoming pretty obiouvs that Savile had some hold over people....a pretty obvious hold over them (You tell on me or if I go down...so do you). And some of these people, are right at the "top".
That is "Logical". It is not Logical to assume that a lowly BBC DJ managed to get keys to hospitals, jails, and have investigation after investigation quashed....for 40 years....without someone covering for him.
Can you explain please.
Where did the telephone conversation transcript come from?
And that page makes not an ounce of sense to me regarding the JS issue please explain.
Apologies - I was replying to the other poster but cocked up on the quoting bit !!:D
this is bigger than the bbc far bigger than js go read about hollie greig read how this downs syndrome person medicaly cannot tell a lie she who she names i dont think this fourum is ready for this big name
I have no idea either what that poster is trying to say. Here's a bit on Janet Smith that gives some relevant background info into her suitability to head this enquiry -
http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/local/9989171.Dame_Janet_Smith_to_lead_Jimmy_Savile_sex_abuse_allegations/
Twelve years ago, aged 61, Dame Janet took on the "colossal" job of leading the inquiry into the serial killer who murdered more than 200 people as a GP. The former judge, whose sympathetic manner helped her discuss painful memories with bereaved relatives at the public inquiry, had to sift through tens of thousands of statements and documents before reaching her conclusions.
As a judge she approved the landmark £500 million settlement for 30,000 miners suffering from "white finger" syndrome.
She has prior experience of chairing a public inquiry.
In 1991 she chaired the investigation into the ill-treatment of autistic children at Scotforth House, a local authority home in Lancaster.
IN MY OPINION
Because people in general, people in authority and those that weren't took their eye off the ball.
It was a snowball effect - oh if so and so think's he okay then he must be and so it went on plus his ability to ingratiate himself as Narcissist into every crease and crack of society including media, politics and the ROYAL FAMILY!
That is not to say there are some that were in positions of authority that were complicit, enablers and quite frankly perpetrators too but in my opinion we have to be careful at tarring everyone that came into contact with JS with the same brush, Some are only guilty of being manipulated and being stupid and believing the PR that had snowballed over 6 decades.
I am disappointed that Nurses in charge of children that were vulnerable and in hospital didn't take it further but I could say that about all sorts of people that appear to be queasy in his presence but say nothing.
Let's face it. Unless anyone here is taking part in the official investigations then nothing that is said here, by any of us anonymous internet users, is relevant.