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Box junction penalty notice question
A couple of weeks ago I set off across a box junction but the traffic ahead of me stopped before I could exit the hatched area. I received a penalty notice three days later which I have paid - I know I did exactly the thing that box junctions are intended to prevent.
My question relates to the wording on the notice: The alleged contravention was noted by camera operator XYZ99 who was observing real time pictures from the roadside camera at the time stated. This alleged contravention is supported by videotape evidence.
Is there a legal requirement that the operator has to be watching "live" in order to issue a penalty notice? Is that why the notice is worded that way? Also, is there a national penalty for this contravention or is it set by each local authority?
As I said, I've paid the amount on the notice and I'm not trying to get out of it - I'm just interested in the mechanics of how it works and how the penalty is set.
My question relates to the wording on the notice: The alleged contravention was noted by camera operator XYZ99 who was observing real time pictures from the roadside camera at the time stated. This alleged contravention is supported by videotape evidence.
Is there a legal requirement that the operator has to be watching "live" in order to issue a penalty notice? Is that why the notice is worded that way? Also, is there a national penalty for this contravention or is it set by each local authority?
As I said, I've paid the amount on the notice and I'm not trying to get out of it - I'm just interested in the mechanics of how it works and how the penalty is set.
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You should have been fined under the national scheme - £60 fine (can be less if paid in s many weeks). However in some areas the police have given some responsibility to council's to monitor box junctions but I think they are still bound by the FPN of £60 and aren't allowed to charge more than that.
I was sent a penalty notice for £120, reduced to £60 if paid within 14 days, but with the option to be increased to £180 if not paid within 28 days.
£120 seems a bit steep for a box junction offence the usual is around £60. Unless your fine was for two offences, stopping in box junction and inconsiderate driving I have seen it where the police do that to some offenders.
"Entering and stopping in a box junction where prohibited" if I remember correctly.
For example if there are two streams of heavy traffic coming from two directions into one exit. If you wait at the line for the traffic in front to move off then you're allowing the traffic from the other direction to simply queue up in front of them once the lights change. By the time the lights have changed back there could be a full on queue in front of you again and so you'd never actually be able to move forward!
What i'm saying that it would be great if everyone obeyed the laws concerning box junctions but as they don't it leaves you with very little choice!
The rules regarding box junctions are you MUST NOT enter to yellow criss cross markings until your exit route is clear. However you can enter a box junction ONLY if you are turning right and are prevented from doing so by on coming traffic or other traffic in front waiting to turn right.
At a signalled roundabout you MUS NOT enter the box unless you can fully clear it without stopping.
I know that people don't follow this but unfortunately if you do enter the junction and fail to clear it you will be given a FPN if caught.
blueisthecolour your are right and gorillathebino you are wrong.
Before gorillathebino tells me that i have no idea what i am talking about i will explian.
TFL and most councils apply the rules written down in the highway code ,which are wrong and do not reflect the actual law written in the "Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002"
It may sound ridiculous that the high way code does not reflect what is the actual the law but it is a fact which anyone can check out by googling the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002" and finding the section relating to yellow box junctions. Or by hunting down on the internet one of the many patas appeal cases that have been won on the fact.
The councils dont care that they are wrong as they make money out of it and know that the police will do nothing .
The offence is firstly committed on entry and only then if there are stationary vehicles blocking your exit on entry.
In other words if on entry there are no stationary vehicle preventing your exit you have commited no offence.
You are just saying what I said the only thing I didn't mention was stationary vehicles. Apart from that nothing is different.
I thought it would be obvious when I said exit route is clear (ie no cars stopped at your exit that would prevent you from exiting the junction).
I appologise, i was thinking you were going down the line that most councils do, where they prosecute motorists who have had to stop in the junction due to previously moving
vehicles in front coming to a stop after they had entered.
Inkblot
By the way, you did nothing wrong and would have won on appeal.
You are right but as with most legislation it is a gray area. As traffic may be moving but at your exit it may be stationary and if you did enter the box then you could be charged.
happened to me the other day , i was waiting patiently , started to move off and a car came from my left and took the space i was going for , left me sitting in the box junction , fortunately it wasnt monitored , still annoyed me though :mad:
This is precisely the situation i meant. You're in a no win situation. If stopping in box junctions was enforced more regularly then it would'nt be an issue as people wouldn't block them. However we all know that using cameras to prevent traffic crime isn't simply a sensible way of managing road behaviour, no it's the 'greedy government' invading our privacy and stealing our money. (Please note sarcasm)
What your saying is
As you entered the box junction your exit was clear,their was somewhere for you to go. A car then came and and took the spot you were aiming for giving you no choice but to stop in the yellow box.
If so no offence was commited as on entry you had an exit.
More fool you for paying!!! :rolleyes:
Did you cause a long term obstruction? Did you cause massive tailbacks? Did you put anyones life in danger? - erm...probably no...so you simply added fuel to the fire by paying a stupid fee of which is irrelevant. WHY did you pay this fee?
I don't want to sound 'harsh' - BUT...it is people like you (and many of them) that stoop so low as to simply pay everything and anyting that is throwed at them...that's why these pathetic laws are in force because they know people are daft enough to pay up...put up...shut up...and then moan about it.
If you caused no problem by a simple mistake...WHY should YOU (or anyone else) have to pay?
For god sake...you should have REFUSED POINT BLANK to pay!
The government will soon fine people for shutting their car doors incorrectly...YET people will STILL be stupid enough to pay up!
Why oh why DO people add fuel to the fire for absolutely NO apparant reason? No wonder the laws take the pi$$ - because people encourage them to! :eek:
It's hard to sustain a robust defence in the face of well... faceless, relentless bureaucracy. I don't blame individuals who find they have to minimise the cost and disruption to their lives in dealing with a system that seems specifically designed to out-manoeuver them at every turn.
It's not the fault of individual citizens. It's the fault of all those people (and campaign groups :rolleyes:) who freely equate adherance to the rules with safety. It's the fault of bureaucrats and legal professionals who continue to support a system that works against the interests of citizens and society. And (no suprise here) it's the fault of politicians for adopting these policies in the first place.
It's a shame that a once great, free country now seems content to direct the forces of law and order against its entire population - and for what end? Casualties on the road are no fewer, and anyone who drives regularly has to endure a significantly more lawless environment. The same on our streets and in our town centres.
So basically, we should just ignore laws we don't like and if we get caught breaking them ignore the punishment because otherwise by taking the deserved punishment we're encouraging the laws?
What a daft statement.
fair play and good point , however , it still pissed me off that i was blocking the junction through no fault of my own :mad:
Is it correct that as long as the cars in front of you are moving that it is ok to enter a box junction?
https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/road-junctions-170-to-183
So going by that you have to wait until the exit is clear before you enter the junction. The "MUST NOT" in the rule means it's backed up by law.