The ability of television to corrupt and indoctrinate must never be underestimated. Aa a child I watched The Sooty Show and little else. Honestly it was an obsession. Alas what seemed so benign back then was having unseen and pernicious influence as I now have a tendency to paint myself yellow, speak only in whispers, always carry a wand and am followed everywhere I go by a ginger bearded man with his hand up my...moving swiftly on. Izzy Wizzy Lets Get Busy! Filth I tells ya!
In that case, you'll have to start watching pretty much any show from before the mid-nineties (with the exception of Eastenders), because everyone knows you can cure gay caught from watching agenda filled shows by reversing the polarity... I mean watching the opposite!
After all, I turned out straight after watching a heavily heterosexual diet of television.
Wait a minute...
;)
I wasn't complaining! I'm quite happy being a gay saurophile. I only wish there were more gay alien lizard ladies about. I never seem to meet one.
I have already caught the gay virus, apparently, and not only that but it is an inter-species gay virus, because I am absolutely in love with Madame Vastra!
All I can say is to reflect the theme of the story - what's so great about Victorian values?
If Vastra were to turn up at the door with Strax and say, "I'm a lizard from the dawn of time, and this is my husband", how would that have affected your impression of the story? Would you have felt preached at? Would you feel that it would encourage more children to be straight?
Good point Johnny. Or would that then encourage kids to want to marry potatoes?
Something else just occurred to me too. How come Disney can produce cartoons, which ar mostly watched by children, and show animals marrying other animals, sometimes even different species? But this is somehow OK and doctor who is not.
Good point Johnny. Or would that then encourage kids to want to marry potatoes?
Something else just occurred to me too. How come Disney can produce cartoons, which ar mostly watched by children, and show animals marrying other animals, sometimes even different species? But this is somehow OK and doctor who is not.
Just highlighting that one there.
That's a good point, actually - look at Beauty and the Beast! Belle falls in love with the Beast, she doesn't know he's a man under a spell, so why aren't people complaining that it promotes bestiality to children? Ok, it all comes good in the end (and the adults know that who are watching with their children) but the children don't know that, and many who are watching Disney are a lot younger than those who are watching Doctor Who!
Children, as I've said before, take their lead from the adults around them they are close to and who they respect - if the adults don't freak out about a Disney film, the children don't either. Whatever the issue (from vegetarianism to same-sex relationships - anything, really) our children take their lead from us. Some people have different ways of eating (vegetarians), some have different ways of expressing their love for their partner (same-sex relationships) than a 'mummy and daddy' set up. Saying so is not 'promoting' or advising (or rejecting) either as possibilities for our own children, we are merely telling them a bit more about how the world works if/when we feel they are ready to hear it.
Believe me, even when children ask the 'awkward' questions, if they are still relatively young they tune out of the answer as soon as they've heard enough to satisfy them! It's the parents who get wound up about the 'great long speech' they feel they have to give to explain things, whereas the child just wants a short answer that addresses the key thing they asked, and then they move on to something else almost in a heartbeat. Children don't ponder the 'big things' like we do, they are 'grazers', taking in bits here, bits there, in small chunks at first, then bigger chunks as their age and experience increase.
By the way, I hope I haven't offended any vegetarians in using their eating way of life as an example to explain my point
All I can say is to reflect the theme of the story - what's so great about Victorian values?
If Vastra were to turn up at the door with Strax and say, "I'm a lizard from the dawn of time, and this is my husband", how would that have affected your impression of the story? Would you have felt preached at? Would you feel that it would encourage more children to be straight?
Exactly it's only when it's gay things on the telly do people get wound up. I very much doubt anyone here really cares about her being a lizard in a relationship with a human, it's only because it's two women that it becomes a problem.
Anyone that seriously thinks children are 'horrified' or 'extremely confused' about it are just insulting their child's intelligence.
Exactly it's only when it's gay things on the telly do people get wound up. I very much doubt anyone here really cares about her being a lizard in a relationship with a human, it's only because it's two women that it becomes a problem.
Anyone that seriously thinks children are 'horrified' or 'extremely confused' about it are just insulting their child's intelligence.
I've been saying the same! As both a parent, and a trained primary school teacher (albeit one now branching out into other areas such as GCSE!) I've seen that so many times myself. Children take their lead from the adults around them. This is totally unrelated to the topic at hand, but I used to teach a class which had a girl (6 years old) from a strict Jehovah's Witness family. Obviously, they don't believe in Christmas, and the girl went round telling the whole class that Santa/Fr Christmas didn't exist (I was only in my first year of full-time teaching at this point in 1990 - you don't get lessons in this at teacher training college!). Hence I had loads of 6 year olds asking me, "Miss, .... says there's no Fr Christmas - is that true?". Talk about an awkward question! I know it's not the same as what we've been talking about, but to a child it's probably more important! It's only to us adults that things like 'promoting' sexuality becomes an issue - children take as they find, and if they ask questions they just want a quick answer, not a treatise on the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman.
I'm sorry if that offends anyone here, but I've seen it from both sides, both professionally and personally, and in every case the children involved have not been the least bit phased. It's adults who get the hang ups, and then they pass that on to the children (either their own, or the ones they know intimately). Children are very open, honest, and generous with their feelings - they only see something as being 'wrong' or 'unnatural' if we tell them it is!
I think I said in my very first post on this thread basically what you've just said - too much 'outrage' is expressed on behalf of 'the children' when 'the children' themselves feel so such outrage! They're curious, yes, but a child's curiosity does not breed indoctrination or 'persuasion' to a way of life they don't feel drawn to themselves (unless they have been unduly, or unfairly pressured/indoctrinated).
Adults have issues - children do not, unless adults initiate them.
I've been saying the same! As both a parent, and a trained primary school teacher (albeit one now branching out into other areas such as GCSE!) I've seen that so many times myself. Children take their lead from the adults around them. This is totally unrelated to the topic at hand, but I used to teach a class which had a girl (6 years old) from a strict Jehovah's Witness family. Obviously, they don't believe in Christmas, and the girl went round telling the whole class that Santa/Fr Christmas didn't exist (I was only in my first year of full-time teaching at this point in 1990 - you don't get lessons in this at teacher training college!). Hence I had loads of 6 year olds asking me, "Miss, .... says there's no Fr Christmas - is that true?". Talk about an awkward question! I know it's not the same as what we've been talking about, but to a child it's probably more important! It's only to us adults that things like 'promoting' sexuality becomes an issue - children take as they find, and if they ask questions they just want a quick answer, not a treatise on the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman.
I'm sorry if that offends anyone here, but I've seen it from both sides, both professionally and personally, and in every case the children involved have not been the least bit phased. It's adults who get the hang ups, and then they pass that on to the children (either their own, or the ones they know intimately). Children are very open, honest, and generous with their feelings - they only see something as being 'wrong' or 'unnatural' if we tell them it is!
I think I said in my very first post on this thread basically what you've just said - too much 'outrage' is expressed on behalf of 'the children' when 'the children' themselves feel so such outrage! They're curious, yes, but a child's curiosity does not breed indoctrination or 'persuasion' to a way of life they don't feel drawn to themselves (unless they have been unduly, or unfairly pressured/indoctrinated).
Adults have issues - children do not, unless adults initiate them.
Can I add to this. I have a disability and and part of that is that I have one leg longer than the other so I wear a surgical shoe that has a huge lift on it to make it sort of match up.
The number of times I've had kids commenting and adults being embarrassed and pulling their kids away without getting an answer is depressing. I haven't got a problem telling kids I've got one leg longer than the other. They don't once I've told them so why do parents have a problem with it?
Can I add to this. I have a disability and and part of that is that I have one leg longer than the other so I wear a surgical shoe that has a huge lift on it to make it sort of match up.
The number of times I've had kids commenting and adults being embarrassed and pulling their kids away without getting an answer is depressing. I haven't got a problem telling kids I've got one leg longer than the other. They don't once I've told them so why do parents have a problem with it?
BIB: You are so right, and as you say, the children are just very straightforward - you look 'different', and they want to know why with some sort of straight answer. When you've satisfied their curiosity (which I bet doesn't take more than a sentence of two) they just move on to something else - like I said before, children soon 'tune out' as soon as they've got the answer which makes sense to them, it's adults who get a bit hung up worrying about giving long, involved answers to 'awkward' questions, when the children aren't interested in long or involved! To them you aren't defined as 'the lady with one leg longer than the other' - I bet if most children who've met you were asked to describe you they comment on your hair colour or some other identifying feature, not your disability at all!
Your experience, or a similar one anyway, happens frequently to a friend of mine who's in a wheelchair - she gets asked by young children all the time why she's in it (she has cerebral palsy) so she tells them in very simple terms (that her legs don't work very well), they're happy, then they move on to talk about something else! As you say, sadly sometimes you can tell just by looking at the adults who are with the children that they are ones feeling embarrassed or awkward about meeting you - do the adults also sometimes pretend that they don't want their children to 'notice' you, as if they are trying to 'protect' you from unwanted questions, whereas really it's to cover their own discomfort? That's been my friend's experience more than once!
Children will always feed off our discomfort if we allow them to see/feel it. Sometimes, of course, it's right to let them see/feel our discomfort for some things, to discourage their interest (e.g. drugs) but nothing we've discussed in this thread falls into that camp.
BIB: You are so right, and as you say, the children are just very straightforward - you look 'different', and they want to know why with some sort of straight answer. When you've satisfied their curiosity (which I bet doesn't take more than a sentence of two) they just move on to something else - like I said before, children soon 'tune out' as soon as they've got the answer which makes sense to them, it's adults who get a bit hung up worrying about giving long, involved answers to 'awkward' questions, when the children aren't interested in long or involved! To them you aren't defined as 'the lady with one leg longer than the other' - I bet if most children who've met you were asked to describe you they comment on your hair colour or some other identifying feature, not your disability at all!
Your experience, or a similar one anyway, happens frequently to a friend of mine who's in a wheelchair - she gets asked by young children all the time why she's in it (she has cerebral palsy) so she tells them in very simple terms (that her legs don't work very well), they're happy, then they move on to talk about something else! As you say, sadly sometimes you can tell just by looking at the adults who are with the children that they are ones feeling embarrassed or awkward about meeting you - do the adults also sometimes pretend that they don't want their children to 'notice' you, as if they are trying to 'protect' you from unwanted questions, whereas really it's to cover their own discomfort? That's been my friend's experience more than once!
Children will always feed off our discomfort if we allow them to see/feel it. Sometimes, of course, it's right to let them see/feel our discomfort for some things, to discourage their interest (e.g. drugs) but nothing we've discussed in this thread falls into that camp.
(Assuming you are female due to your username!)
BIB oh yes, (where have I heard that before?) that has happened to me on many occasions and yes last time I checked I was definitely female.
What's that you say about my beloved Vashta & Jenny? My only qualm about that is it seems to confirm my suspicion that ALL the best girls on t'other bus!
Why not promote inter-species same-sex relationships anyway?
I enjoyed Glee. I just think the last episode I watched was virtually a sermon about homosexuality.
I personally have no problem with gay marriage or anything like that but I object to being preached at which I think Doctor Who does.
Your last point - trying to imply people who disagree with you are gay - is very childish.
What an absurd accusation to make. As you well know, I did no such thing. Being gay myself, it would be illogical. I can only assume my joke went totally over your head - which, judging from some of your own childish replies to other posters on this thread, comes as no surprise.
And for someone who claims not to "have a problem" about homosexuality, you don't half bang on negatively about it.
It's jumped 5 sharks, a blue whale, a great white shark and several million planckton. All at once. When it landed it did a triple sommersault, ending with a backward roll into a fridge......
A nuclear bomb then went off about half a mile down the road and exploded everything..... except the fridge which got hurled into the air at tremendous speed, landing in a smoking heap several miles away from the blast. The thread then got out, dusted itself off and took a bow.
It's jumped 5 sharks, a blue whale, a great white shark and several million planckton. All at once. When it landed it did a triple sommersault, ending with a backward roll into a fridge......
Speaking of the "Gay Agenda", no-one seems to have mentioned the fact that the "Christmas Agenda" has raised its ugly head again. :mad:
First the Doctor says "At long last, it's Christmas! Here I am!" to the Daleks, then The Doctor and Rory discuss Christmas lists in "Dinosaurs on a Spaceship" followed by the Doctor mentioning someone peeking at his Christmas list in "A Town Called Mercy".
Now Moffat has reached a new low with his heinous Christmas agenda- the last episode was entirely Christmassy- it was set at Christmas, it aired on Christmas day and there were a disgusting number of Christmas references. :mad:
The man must be stopped!
It's the bow-tie agenda that gets me. A tiny minority of people in this country are bow-tie wearers, but insidious BBC executives keep trying to corrupt our children into thinking they're cool by forcing it into Dr. Who.
Of course, I have no problem with bow-tie wearers, you understand. People can wear what they like behind closed doors. But I don't want to see bow-ties on my television, or to be preached at about them when I sit to watch Dr. Who. Will no-one think of the children...?
It's the bow-tie agenda that gets me. A tiny minority of people in this country are bow-tie wearers, but insidious BBC executives keep trying to corrupt our children into thinking they're cool by forcing it into Dr. Who.
Of course, I have no problem with bow-tie wearers, you understand. People can wear what they like behind closed doors. But I don't want to see bow-ties on my television, or to be preached at about them when I sit to watch Dr. Who. Will no-one think of the children...?
OMG - so true and then you find Merlin wearing one as well
It's jumped 5 sharks, a blue whale, a great white shark and several million planckton. All at once. When it landed it did a triple sommersault, ending with a backward roll into a fridge......
A nuclear bomb then went off about half a mile down the road and exploded everything..... except the fridge which got hurled into the air at tremendous speed, landing in a smoking heap several miles away from the blast. The thread then got out, dusted itself off and took a bow.
Comments
I wasn't complaining! I'm quite happy being a gay saurophile. I only wish there were more gay alien lizard ladies about. I never seem to meet one.
Good grief, another of my fantasies revealed!
wicked woman! You should write for DW!
I do know a couple of lesbians with eczema. Would that be of any help?
Now you're talking. I'll fetch the E45 cream...
As long as they are green.
(Hope you are soon feeling better, btw, sebbie.
I've got some green face/body paint left from when I was Elpheba. I'll get them ready for you, as soon as I'm out of bed!
(Thanks Granny, hopefully in time for my NYE plans tomorrow evening...)
If Vastra were to turn up at the door with Strax and say, "I'm a lizard from the dawn of time, and this is my husband", how would that have affected your impression of the story? Would you have felt preached at? Would you feel that it would encourage more children to be straight?
Something else just occurred to me too. How come Disney can produce cartoons, which ar mostly watched by children, and show animals marrying other animals, sometimes even different species? But this is somehow OK and doctor who is not.
Just highlighting that one there.
That's a good point, actually - look at Beauty and the Beast! Belle falls in love with the Beast, she doesn't know he's a man under a spell, so why aren't people complaining that it promotes bestiality to children? Ok, it all comes good in the end (and the adults know that who are watching with their children) but the children don't know that, and many who are watching Disney are a lot younger than those who are watching Doctor Who!
Children, as I've said before, take their lead from the adults around them they are close to and who they respect - if the adults don't freak out about a Disney film, the children don't either. Whatever the issue (from vegetarianism to same-sex relationships - anything, really) our children take their lead from us. Some people have different ways of eating (vegetarians), some have different ways of expressing their love for their partner (same-sex relationships) than a 'mummy and daddy' set up. Saying so is not 'promoting' or advising (or rejecting) either as possibilities for our own children, we are merely telling them a bit more about how the world works if/when we feel they are ready to hear it.
Believe me, even when children ask the 'awkward' questions, if they are still relatively young they tune out of the answer as soon as they've heard enough to satisfy them! It's the parents who get wound up about the 'great long speech' they feel they have to give to explain things, whereas the child just wants a short answer that addresses the key thing they asked, and then they move on to something else almost in a heartbeat. Children don't ponder the 'big things' like we do, they are 'grazers', taking in bits here, bits there, in small chunks at first, then bigger chunks as their age and experience increase.
By the way, I hope I haven't offended any vegetarians in using their eating way of life as an example to explain my point
Exactly it's only when it's gay things on the telly do people get wound up. I very much doubt anyone here really cares about her being a lizard in a relationship with a human, it's only because it's two women that it becomes a problem.
Anyone that seriously thinks children are 'horrified' or 'extremely confused' about it are just insulting their child's intelligence.
I've been saying the same! As both a parent, and a trained primary school teacher (albeit one now branching out into other areas such as GCSE!) I've seen that so many times myself. Children take their lead from the adults around them. This is totally unrelated to the topic at hand, but I used to teach a class which had a girl (6 years old) from a strict Jehovah's Witness family. Obviously, they don't believe in Christmas, and the girl went round telling the whole class that Santa/Fr Christmas didn't exist (I was only in my first year of full-time teaching at this point in 1990 - you don't get lessons in this at teacher training college!). Hence I had loads of 6 year olds asking me, "Miss, .... says there's no Fr Christmas - is that true?". Talk about an awkward question! I know it's not the same as what we've been talking about, but to a child it's probably more important! It's only to us adults that things like 'promoting' sexuality becomes an issue - children take as they find, and if they ask questions they just want a quick answer, not a treatise on the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman.
I'm sorry if that offends anyone here, but I've seen it from both sides, both professionally and personally, and in every case the children involved have not been the least bit phased. It's adults who get the hang ups, and then they pass that on to the children (either their own, or the ones they know intimately). Children are very open, honest, and generous with their feelings - they only see something as being 'wrong' or 'unnatural' if we tell them it is!
I think I said in my very first post on this thread basically what you've just said - too much 'outrage' is expressed on behalf of 'the children' when 'the children' themselves feel so such outrage! They're curious, yes, but a child's curiosity does not breed indoctrination or 'persuasion' to a way of life they don't feel drawn to themselves (unless they have been unduly, or unfairly pressured/indoctrinated).
Adults have issues - children do not, unless adults initiate them.
Can I add to this. I have a disability and and part of that is that I have one leg longer than the other so I wear a surgical shoe that has a huge lift on it to make it sort of match up.
The number of times I've had kids commenting and adults being embarrassed and pulling their kids away without getting an answer is depressing. I haven't got a problem telling kids I've got one leg longer than the other. They don't once I've told them so why do parents have a problem with it?
BIB: You are so right, and as you say, the children are just very straightforward - you look 'different', and they want to know why with some sort of straight answer. When you've satisfied their curiosity (which I bet doesn't take more than a sentence of two) they just move on to something else - like I said before, children soon 'tune out' as soon as they've got the answer which makes sense to them, it's adults who get a bit hung up worrying about giving long, involved answers to 'awkward' questions, when the children aren't interested in long or involved! To them you aren't defined as 'the lady with one leg longer than the other' - I bet if most children who've met you were asked to describe you they comment on your hair colour or some other identifying feature, not your disability at all!
Your experience, or a similar one anyway, happens frequently to a friend of mine who's in a wheelchair - she gets asked by young children all the time why she's in it (she has cerebral palsy) so she tells them in very simple terms (that her legs don't work very well), they're happy, then they move on to talk about something else! As you say, sadly sometimes you can tell just by looking at the adults who are with the children that they are ones feeling embarrassed or awkward about meeting you - do the adults also sometimes pretend that they don't want their children to 'notice' you, as if they are trying to 'protect' you from unwanted questions, whereas really it's to cover their own discomfort? That's been my friend's experience more than once!
Children will always feed off our discomfort if we allow them to see/feel it. Sometimes, of course, it's right to let them see/feel our discomfort for some things, to discourage their interest (e.g. drugs) but nothing we've discussed in this thread falls into that camp.
(Assuming you are female due to your username!)
BIB oh yes, (where have I heard that before?) that has happened to me on many occasions and yes last time I checked I was definitely female.
Why not promote inter-species same-sex relationships anyway?
What an absurd accusation to make. As you well know, I did no such thing. Being gay myself, it would be illogical. I can only assume my joke went totally over your head - which, judging from some of your own childish replies to other posters on this thread, comes as no surprise.
And for someone who claims not to "have a problem" about homosexuality, you don't half bang on negatively about it.
A nuclear bomb then went off about half a mile down the road and exploded everything..... except the fridge which got hurled into the air at tremendous speed, landing in a smoking heap several miles away from the blast. The thread then got out, dusted itself off and took a bow.
5.5 - technical merit
6.0 - presentation
It's the bow-tie agenda that gets me. A tiny minority of people in this country are bow-tie wearers, but insidious BBC executives keep trying to corrupt our children into thinking they're cool by forcing it into Dr. Who.
Of course, I have no problem with bow-tie wearers, you understand. People can wear what they like behind closed doors. But I don't want to see bow-ties on my television, or to be preached at about them when I sit to watch Dr. Who. Will no-one think of the children...?
OMG - so true and then you find Merlin wearing one as well
And break out the tuna!:D