However, for the first few months after they left it was like a free-for-all audition at Sky. On screen wise, I think if Sky had that time again they'd do things a bit differently. It came across as very sloppy at the time.
Well, that was part of the problem, Keys and Gray were actually on more than they'd ever been when they went so they were struggling to bring new talent through. At the end Keys was in some weeks presenting five days a week, from Saturday to Wednesday, while Gray was commentating three times a week and often punditing on the other two.
When Ian Payne came in, he took over Saturdays and Mondays but that didn't seem to work out, and there was that period when Dave Jones presented the first match on Super Sunday, but other than that Keys and Gray completely dominated, so there was always going to be a chasm when they went. Whereas on the other channels, if their main host left tomorrow, they'd have obvious successors in place.
It's Ray with Gary McAllister and Martin Keown at Man City, getting drenched by a sprinkler.
FA Cup-Manchester City v Leeds (ESPN)
Presenter: Ray Stubbs with Martin Keown and Gary McAllister
Commentators: Jon Champion and Craig Burley
Reporter: Darrell Currie
Indeed, in those days there was only one live FA Cup match a round and Luton vs Millwall was played on a Wednesday in any case as Luton were playing a replay on the scheduled weekend. 1985 really was an unbelievably awful year for football, it's unimiginable these days to see all that upleasantness in such quick succession. In Fever Pitch Nick Hornby says that Heysel was coming "as certain as Christmas".
I'm not being ghoulish but I find 1980s football fascinating to look back on as it was such an antithesis to the game we all enjoy today, and as you say, from thirty years' distance it seems inconceivable how the game allowed itself to get into a state where its spectators ran the risk of succumbing to injury or even death by going to see it.
Of course, as well as the Luton riot, Bradford fire and Heysel, 1984-85 also saw Chelsea fans riot against Sunderland in the League Cup semi, Celtic fans assault two Rapid Vienna players in their Cup Winners Cup match, the Leicester v Burton Cup tie replayed after the Burton keeper was taken out by a missile and a young boy die in the aftermath of rioting by Leeds and Birmingham fans on the same day as Bradford.
And that's not even mentioning the complete and utter mess the game was in with TV at that point either.
FA Cup-Manchester City v Leeds (ESPN)
Presenter: Ray Stubbs with Martin Keown and Gary McAllister
Commentators: Jon Champion and Craig Burley
Reporter: Darrell Currie
Ray Stubbs had to make an apology during half-time about "some colourful language viewers may have heard". What exactly was chanted?
Ray Stubbs had to make an apology during half-time about "some colourful language viewers may have heard". What exactly was chanted?
Wasn't a chant, but during the bit after the break when they were showing the graphic with Thursday's Europa League matches on, somebody pretty audibly shouted 'fookin 'ell' over the top of Ray.
They were good, in their hey-day even peerless, but there were increasing signs towards the end that it was time for a change.
Keys had got just that little bit more smug and knowing and Gray had got just that little bit more lazy and cliche-driven with his analysis.
So IMO even taking out all the unpleasantness, Sky should have been considering refreshing their coverage.
And as part of that change has led us to Gary Neville, easily the finest analyst around, and Keys and Gray are in no way short of work these days, then it is win-win as far as I am concerned.
Gary Neville is an excellent analyst but I have to say I still prefer Gray in the co-com role to he, but that's an opinion which can obviously change over time.
As for Keys. He did come across as smug at times, you're right. But he really worked his pundits, noticeably that England qualifier (away to Switzerland was it?) when the second pundit didnt make it so he was left with Redknapp, and he really made Redknapp work. I remember something along the lines of Redknapp saying a draw would be a good result and Keys laid into him to explain himself and that England should be looking at winning the game, not drawing it. It's one of the few times Redknapp offered any insight, although it had to be dragged out of him mind.
With ITV starting to use talkSPORTs Sam Matterface more and more, I wonder if they in the future will take a chance of using Andy Gray too?
Chelsea v Brentford - Sam Matterface & Andy Townsend Manchester City v Leeds Utd - Martin Tyler & Stewart Robson Huddersfield Town v Wigan Athletic - Clive Tyldesley & Jim Beglin
World Feed
Chelsea v Brentford Dan O'Hagan & Nigel Winterburn Huddersfield Town v Wigan Athletic - Gary Taphouse & Tony Dorigo
Well, there are two types of banter, aren't there, the worst example of the wrong kind of banter is the "Love the tie, Ally!" school of broadcasting that made Des Lynam's last few years on ITV so unwatchable, where gags take priority. There as that bit on the first ever Premiership on ITV where Ally picked his Goals of the Day and Tel was obliged to say they were rubbish and laugh at Ally, not suggest any other ones, just banter for banter's sake. I would suggest that Soccer Saturday is often in danger of going down that route.
What you want is a presenter who can do his job with a bit of wit but actually get the discussion going. I think the likes of Chiles are good at that - or he was on the Beeb anyway - because he knew it was all pretty trivial but asked proper questions, same with Des in his pomp on the Beeb. I like both Chamberlin and Jones, they are both very proficient presenters, without being bland like Manish Bhasin or many of the Sky Sports News drones.
I certainly prefer them to Richard Keys, Des Lynam (him again) said he always found it hard to warm to Keys because he always seemed to give over the impression he knew something he wasn't going to tell you, and I agree with that. And he used to be a right arse at times, I was looking back at this thread a while back and found the moment where he slagged off Steve Bennett at great length for falling ill and there being a delay while they found another fourth official, taking it as a personal affront. I used to hate that kind of thing.
Of course, when Keys did that digging-his-own-grave interview, he said the reason they were being so laddish and doing so much "banter" was to put Matt Muray at ease.
Yes, you're right there. Of course you want the presenter to have a bit of wit and warmth. The trouble is, when I hear people talking about the necessity of "banter" in a football broadcast, I think primarily of the golf club-type atmosphere of Match of the Day, or, as you reference, Keys and Gray.
Shame Huddersfield cant fill their ground. Mind you Wigans travelling support wont help much. God help them if they get a QF and still cant fill the ground.
Yeah, wondered why Matterface had been given a live game seemingly ahead of Drury, I know Clive does more or less all of the live matches unless it's physically impossible but four in six days was probably pushing it.
Here is all the weekend's football in one go...
Tranmere vs Shrewsbury - Introduced by Simon Thomas with Peter Beagrie, commentary by Bill Leslie and Andy Hinchcliffe
Luton vs Millwall - Introduced by The Lovely Rebecca Lowe with Steve McManaman and Brain Stein, commentary by Jon Champion and Craig Burley
Oldham vs Everton - Introduced by Adrian Chiles with Paul Dickov, Lee Dixon and Gareth Southgate, commentary by Clive Tyldesley and Andy Townsend
Chelsea vs Brentford - Introduced by Matt Smith with Martin Allen and Ian Wright, commentary by Sam Matterface and Andy Townsend
Man City vs Leeds - Introduced by Ray Stubbs with Martin Keown and Gary McAllister, commentary by Jon Champion and Craig Burley
Huddersfield vs Wigan Reserves - Introduced by Adrian Chiles with Lee Dixon, Peter Reid and Gareth Southgate, commentary by Peter Drury and Jim Beglin, watched by about five people at the ground and three people on TV
Yes, you're right there. Of course you want the presenter to have a bit of wit and warmth. The trouble is, when I hear people talking about the necessity of "banter" in a football broadcast, I think primarily of the golf club-type atmosphere of Match of the Day, or, as you reference, Keys and Gray.
But this 'banter' is obviously what terrestrial companies think the viewers want. It explains the old boys golf club style on Match of the Day, the wacky 'Clem' on the Football League Show, and why ITV paid an absolute fortune for Adrian Chiles to bumble his way through some links with the hope of some funny pre or during match clips that he can provide some 'hilarious' ironic observational commentary for.
On the likes of Sky and ESPN, where actual audience figures are of a secondary importance it is much less the case, but as long as 'banter sells' then people like Chiles and Robbie Savage will continue to be rammed down a terrestrial audience's throats.
The BBC Sport website runs a series of articles where they catch up with football people. On 26 December last year there was an article with Ron Atkinson. I'll paste the bit relevant to this thread here:
You had a unique way of summarising. It's been dubbed Ron-glish. What do you make of that?
I see a lot of stuff which is attributed to me which isn't mine but I'd use little identifying things from when I was coaching. As a player I probably only had one trick, apart from passing to my own team-mates, and that was a step over. One of my managers said you look like a lollipop doing that so I said, "I'll have that, that's what I'll call it". Subsequently, when I was covering a game and someone did it, I'd say, "he's just done a lollipop". People say why is it a lollipop and I go, "why in cricket do they call a googly a googly?". It identifies it and people know what it is straight away. When I used to say skim a header, I'd go "go on eyebrows" and the players would know straight away what I was after.
Who's the best summariser these days?
Although he's not the biggest name, I like Don Goodman because he tells me something. I was always told when I started summarising, you are not there to repeat what the commentator says. You are there to try to help give information to the viewer; to have a look, think and predict how the game might develop in terms of tactics. A lot of the people I hear summarising very often just repeat the commentator or have a degree in stating the obvious.
Firstly, does any of you have something to add about Ron's summarising style? Does 'Ronglish' consist of using pet names for tactical moves or tricks?
Secondly I agree with him that there are too many summarisers who state the obvious. Very few have the qualities Ron mentions. I'd say that most of them don't add anything and are just there because broadcasters are dead scared of 'dead air'.
The BBC Sport website runs a series of articles where they catch up with football people. On 26 December last year there was an article with Ron Atkinson. I'll paste the bit relevant to this thread here:
Firstly, does any of you have something to add about Ron's summarising style? Does 'Ronglish' consist of using pet names for tactical moves or tricks?
Secondly I agree with him that there are too many summarisers who state the obvious. Very few have the qualities Ron mentions. I'd say that most of them don't add anything and are just there because broadcasters are dead scared of 'dead air'.
Ron Atkinson was by far the BEST co commentator there has been.
I'm really surprised he has never made a retun, although maybe he has been asked, but maybe dosnt want to start again!!
With ITV starting to use talkSPORTs Sam Matterface more and more, I wonder if they in the future will take a chance of using Andy Gray too?
Although I a huge fan of Richard Keys and Andy Gray, what you said reveals an issue that sadly Keys created. Whilst I agree with him for sticking by his friend, I would have thought it would have been in his best interests to stay at Sky because now it seems the two are inseperable - which would limit there chances of going back onto English TV again.
Perhaps Gray would go back on TV again with Keys blessing, but Keys left a rather cushy job at Sky to help out his friend. Personally, I think Keys could have had much more influence if he had stayed at Sky and perhaps convinced them to take Gray back on.
Although I a huge fan of Richard Keys and Andy Gray, what you said reveals an issue that sadly Keys created. Whilst I agree with him for sticking by his friend, I would have thought it would have been in his best interests to stay at Sky because now it seems the two are inseperable - which would limit there chances of going back onto English TV again.
Perhaps Gray would go back on TV again with Keys blessing, but Keys left a rather cushy job at Sky to help out his friend. Personally, I think Keys could have had much more influence if he had stayed at Sky and perhaps convinced them to take Gray back on.
Stayed at Sky?
I thought it was common knowledge that Keys was on the verge of being sacked and just decided to jump before he got pushed?
As far as Gray coming back to TV is concerned, isn't he still persona non grata with the wider viewing public?
Comments
Well, that was part of the problem, Keys and Gray were actually on more than they'd ever been when they went so they were struggling to bring new talent through. At the end Keys was in some weeks presenting five days a week, from Saturday to Wednesday, while Gray was commentating three times a week and often punditing on the other two.
When Ian Payne came in, he took over Saturdays and Mondays but that didn't seem to work out, and there was that period when Dave Jones presented the first match on Super Sunday, but other than that Keys and Gray completely dominated, so there was always going to be a chasm when they went. Whereas on the other channels, if their main host left tomorrow, they'd have obvious successors in place.
It's Ray with Gary McAllister and Martin Keown at Man City, getting drenched by a sprinkler.
Presenter: Ray Stubbs with Martin Keown and Gary McAllister
Commentators: Jon Champion and Craig Burley
Reporter: Darrell Currie
Premier League TV - John Dykes with Alan Curbishley & Don Hutchinson.
Commentary - Gary Weaver & Barry Horne
I'm not being ghoulish but I find 1980s football fascinating to look back on as it was such an antithesis to the game we all enjoy today, and as you say, from thirty years' distance it seems inconceivable how the game allowed itself to get into a state where its spectators ran the risk of succumbing to injury or even death by going to see it.
Of course, as well as the Luton riot, Bradford fire and Heysel, 1984-85 also saw Chelsea fans riot against Sunderland in the League Cup semi, Celtic fans assault two Rapid Vienna players in their Cup Winners Cup match, the Leicester v Burton Cup tie replayed after the Burton keeper was taken out by a missile and a young boy die in the aftermath of rioting by Leeds and Birmingham fans on the same day as Bradford.
And that's not even mentioning the complete and utter mess the game was in with TV at that point either.
Ray Stubbs had to make an apology during half-time about "some colourful language viewers may have heard". What exactly was chanted?
Wasn't a chant, but during the bit after the break when they were showing the graphic with Thursday's Europa League matches on, somebody pretty audibly shouted 'fookin 'ell' over the top of Ray.
Gary Neville is an excellent analyst but I have to say I still prefer Gray in the co-com role to he, but that's an opinion which can obviously change over time.
As for Keys. He did come across as smug at times, you're right. But he really worked his pundits, noticeably that England qualifier (away to Switzerland was it?) when the second pundit didnt make it so he was left with Redknapp, and he really made Redknapp work. I remember something along the lines of Redknapp saying a draw would be a good result and Keys laid into him to explain himself and that England should be looking at winning the game, not drawing it. It's one of the few times Redknapp offered any insight, although it had to be dragged out of him mind.
With ITV starting to use talkSPORTs Sam Matterface more and more, I wonder if they in the future will take a chance of using Andy Gray too?
And he's a Chelsea fan.
Derek Rae supports Brentford too.
Not a chant. It was Gary McAllister (according to Coral on Twitter)
World Feed - Joe Speight
Its actually Peter Drury with Jim Beglin!!
Yes, you're right there. Of course you want the presenter to have a bit of wit and warmth. The trouble is, when I hear people talking about the necessity of "banter" in a football broadcast, I think primarily of the golf club-type atmosphere of Match of the Day, or, as you reference, Keys and Gray.
Yeah, wondered why Matterface had been given a live game seemingly ahead of Drury, I know Clive does more or less all of the live matches unless it's physically impossible but four in six days was probably pushing it.
Here is all the weekend's football in one go...
Tranmere vs Shrewsbury - Introduced by Simon Thomas with Peter Beagrie, commentary by Bill Leslie and Andy Hinchcliffe
Luton vs Millwall - Introduced by The Lovely Rebecca Lowe with Steve McManaman and Brain Stein, commentary by Jon Champion and Craig Burley
Oldham vs Everton - Introduced by Adrian Chiles with Paul Dickov, Lee Dixon and Gareth Southgate, commentary by Clive Tyldesley and Andy Townsend
Chelsea vs Brentford - Introduced by Matt Smith with Martin Allen and Ian Wright, commentary by Sam Matterface and Andy Townsend
Man City vs Leeds - Introduced by Ray Stubbs with Martin Keown and Gary McAllister, commentary by Jon Champion and Craig Burley
Huddersfield vs Wigan Reserves - Introduced by Adrian Chiles with Lee Dixon, Peter Reid and Gareth Southgate, commentary by Peter Drury and Jim Beglin, watched by about five people at the ground and three people on TV
But this 'banter' is obviously what terrestrial companies think the viewers want. It explains the old boys golf club style on Match of the Day, the wacky 'Clem' on the Football League Show, and why ITV paid an absolute fortune for Adrian Chiles to bumble his way through some links with the hope of some funny pre or during match clips that he can provide some 'hilarious' ironic observational commentary for.
On the likes of Sky and ESPN, where actual audience figures are of a secondary importance it is much less the case, but as long as 'banter sells' then people like Chiles and Robbie Savage will continue to be rammed down a terrestrial audience's throats.
Nat Coombs presenting with Raphael Honigstein & Clive Allen
Commentators: John Roder & Richard Hughes
What do you expect if the game is being played in front of one man and his dog!!
Could at least ask the dog to bark ocassionally?
Firstly, does any of you have something to add about Ron's summarising style? Does 'Ronglish' consist of using pet names for tactical moves or tricks?
Secondly I agree with him that there are too many summarisers who state the obvious. Very few have the qualities Ron mentions. I'd say that most of them don't add anything and are just there because broadcasters are dead scared of 'dead air'.
Ron Atkinson was by far the BEST co commentator there has been.
I'm really surprised he has never made a retun, although maybe he has been asked, but maybe dosnt want to start again!!
IF they are in FA Cup action will Sky have to switch to another game or just not shown one?
Although I a huge fan of Richard Keys and Andy Gray, what you said reveals an issue that sadly Keys created. Whilst I agree with him for sticking by his friend, I would have thought it would have been in his best interests to stay at Sky because now it seems the two are inseperable - which would limit there chances of going back onto English TV again.
Perhaps Gray would go back on TV again with Keys blessing, but Keys left a rather cushy job at Sky to help out his friend. Personally, I think Keys could have had much more influence if he had stayed at Sky and perhaps convinced them to take Gray back on.
Studio: ???, Raphael Honigstein, Clive Allen
Commentary: John Roder and Richard Hughes
Stayed at Sky?
I thought it was common knowledge that Keys was on the verge of being sacked and just decided to jump before he got pushed?
As far as Gray coming back to TV is concerned, isn't he still persona non grata with the wider viewing public?