I was with a friend who is totally blind and he was asked to show his driving licence, when he questioned this the person said "well you dont look blind" I suppose disability is not too obvious if you are not naturally observant.
Interesting how many Tories do not know any disabled people but lots of people who are frauds. You can tell a man or woman by the company they keep.
Well seeing as Channel 4 have already postponed it at least once seems they weren't that interested .....................
Been told to show it at a time when the politicians will be least embarrassed and feel themselves righteously justified. Out of a matter of interest it says this MUST be cut. Why?
Most people i have met how think this way are very ignorant about a disabled persons needs.With the money to be able to keep ones own independents, works out cheaper for the country then social services haveing to do alot more for these people.Short sighted cuts will cost more money in the long run. Are you saying we cannot afford DLA or we cannot afford disabled people ?
BIB: I think you have hit the nail on the head. I do think that is behind an awful lot of the posts on here but the posters daren't actually say it that bluntly. I think its also behind a lot of the government policies affecting the disabled. I dont think any of the political parties really care about the needs and the plight of many of this country's disabled citizens. I know I will be accused of hyperbole etc etc but I truly fear for the future of those with disabilities.
Every man and his dog seems to claim to know loads of people who are fraudulently clamining beenfits, but when pushed to give more details never seem to give any...
Nor do they wish to do their civic duty in grassing up these people who are fraudulently claiming, to the authorities.
Most people i have met how think this way are very ignorant about a disabled persons needs.With the money to be able to keep ones own independents, works out cheaper for the country then social services haveing to do alot more for these people.Short sighted cuts will cost more money in the long run. Are you saying we cannot afford DLA or we cannot afford disabled people ?
I will guarantee you that none of the people in the show or people like them will have their benefits cut. However, when the country has a disabled population that exceeds that of Japan's, a nation that has a population of 130 million, you can bet there is a problem.
However, when the country has a disabled population that exceeds that of Japan's, a nation that has a population of 130 million, you can bet there is a problem.
No you can bet you are not comparing like for like, or that there is a problem with Japan not counting as disabled people who most other countries and international organizations would count.
In Japan the officially recognized disabled receive a disabled person's certification notebook. To receive Japanese state benefits you generally need to be so disabled that you are incapable of living independently. These officially recognized as disabled are probably who you are referring to.
The equivalent in the UK would be those claiming Disability Living Allowance high or middle rate care and those on industrial injury disablement high enough to get carer's allowance. The total figure is probably going to be around half or less of that for Japan.
In Japan the disabled typically go to special schools as children then most spend their lives in rehabilitation centers, where they work earning pocket money the equivalent to a couple of hundred pounds a month. Most do not get the opportunity to live independently. Japan despite having a quota system that requires private sector companies to employ disabled people has a far worse record of employing the disabled in the private sector than the UK does.
To follow Japan's example would be for the UK to go backwards. To ignore the needs and lives of the disabled or to institutionalize the disabled.
Since para olympians were featured in the program. I will also point out that Japan a country with twice the UK population got 16 medals in the paralympics, in comparsion to Great Britain getting 120 medals in the paralympics.
If or when you or someone you care about becomes disabled will you still feel the same?
If you were guaranteed £1million would you willingly choose to have your legs amputated or to never see again, would you choose it for your children? If the answer is no then why do you see the issue as so trivial?
Actually if you look at the point I was addressing you will see you have got everything wrong. That's the trouble with people with moral outrage they often don't stop to read things properly and argue about things that weren't even discussed
Horse meat was all over the headline and like all documentary programmes, they put out a timely programme looking at the matter. Your coming over rather dismissive and ignorant about the problems disabled folk face under this government.
No windy it was not a timely documentary as there was nothing new in it about horsemeat it was just a rehash of what had been on various news reports.
As to your woeful claim that I am coming over rather dismissive and ignorant about the problems disabled folk face under this government that is just laughable as I never addressed that. I addressed a particular point you raised and as you didn't like the answer you now seem to want to move the goal posts.....................
Been told to show it at a time when the politicians will be least embarrassed and feel themselves righteously justified. Out of a matter of interest it says this MUST be cut. Why?
Sorry don't understand that or how it relates to my post that you quoted
Actually if you look at the point I was addressing you will see you have got everything wrong. That's the trouble with people with moral outrage they often don't stop to read things properly and argue about things that weren't even discussed
What have I got wrong, I may be too stupidf to undersrtand so please explain in plain english
BIB: I think you have hit the nail on the head. I do think that is behind an awful lot of the posts on here but the posters daren't actually say it that bluntly. I think its also behind a lot of the government policies affecting the disabled. I dont think any of the political parties really care about the needs and the plight of many of this country's disabled citizens. I know I will be accused of hyperbole etc etc but I truly fear for the future of those with disabilities.
TBH and this is going to sound horrible but I do wonder sometimes if medical advances have come too far - especially when you read of the awful time some parents have with their disabled children who are born blind, deaf, dumb and in constant pain - I would hate to see a child of mine suffer like that and struggle to see what sort of life the child can have - not that I'm proposing euthanasia or anything
I will guarantee you that none of the people in the show or people like them will have their benefits cut.
The ex-soldier with one leg.
Under DLA he is receiving High Rate Mobility £54.05 a week.
Under PIP he would need to score 12pts to get Enhanced Rate Mobility £54.05
But the PIP descriptors include "aided" that is with the use of his artificial limb. Being able to move 20mtrs aided by the use of an artificial limb would make him ineligible for the enhanced rate. For the 12pt descriptors he would need to have to use a wheelchair to move more than 20mtrs.
Under what descriptor would he be eligible for PIP enhanced rate mobility?
How does he make a claim on your guarantee?
TBH and this is going to sound horrible but I do wonder sometimes if medical advances have come too far - especially when you read of the awful time some parents have with their disabled children who are born blind, deaf, dumb and in constant pain - I would hate to see a child of mine suffer like that and struggle to see what sort of life the child can have - not that I'm proposing euthanasia or anything
I dont think it sounds horrible but I do think its a whole different debate
TBH and this is going to sound horrible but I do wonder sometimes if medical advances have come too far - especially when you read of the awful time some parents have with their disabled children who are born blind, deaf, dumb and in constant pain - I would hate to see a child of mine suffer like that and struggle to see what sort of life the child can have - not that I'm proposing euthanasia or anything
I do not want to under estimate the challenges and struggle (often caused by inadequate support systems and thoughtless and ignorant oeople) but also wish to paint the other side of the picture
Many parents of disabled children point to the joys that their children bring and the incredible satisfaction of seeing their children achieve and in many cases go on to live independent lives
I have seen this many times with blind and partially sighted people and my life has been enriched no end by such people and their parents. I hear similar from parents and youngsters with cerebral palsy.
I emphasise that it is not easy, I shudder to think what it must be like to see your child in constant pain and my heart goes out to all concerned but lets not give an impression that having a disability makes someones like not worth living, you do not have to be Stephen Hawkings or Stevie Wonder or a top paralympian like David Weir or Hannah Cockcvroft to make a success of your life but you may need a little extra support
What have I got wrong, I may be too stupidf to undersrtand so please explain in plain english
The point, and the only point I addressed was explained in post #4 and was a direct reply to a question raised by the OP
In your post to me you attack me for a whole host of reasons none of which I had commented on. To say i was surprised at your attack is mild to say the least
The point, and the only point I addressed was explained in post #4 and was a direct reply to a question raised by the OP
In your post to me you attack me for a whole host of reasons none of which I had commented on. To say i was surprised at your attack is mild to say the least
OK, if I am reading you right you are saying that the fact Channel 4 cancelled the programme once for a prog on horsemeat says something about the priority the issue has
One might alternatively suggest that the fact they did not cancel it altogether or put it in a graveyard slot suggests they editorial continued to regard it as importnat and of interest to a number of viewers
I accept you did not say the things I inferred but this is a politics forum and not one just about editorial choices so what really was behind the post if you do not feel that the issues are euither irrelevant or should not be aired.
It might be a fair critique to say the programme was presented in a slightly populist and even simplistic manner buit that is the nature of the medium and this particular genre of political programming.
OK, if I am reading you right you are saying that the fact Channel 4 cancelled the programme once for a prog on horsemeat says something about the priority the issue has
.
So still no comment on the actual issue plus the habitual personal dig. Why am I not surprised?
People talk about campaigns and moral outrage but what do they expect.
It is very easy to maintain a disinterested neutrality when you are not affected, to walk by the other side of the road you are far more interested if your house is burgled than if it happens in the next street
Anger and outrage at Injustice is a normal human reaction, does anyone think slavery or apartheid etc would have been ended without some form of campaign.
Many of us have seen how opportunities for disabled people have been revolutionised in our lifetimes, we fear these are being blown away and we cannot stand idly by.
Why decry us for at least having a bit of spirit about us instead of being the passive non-entities that some would like us to remain.
Unless of course there is some other agenda that is meant to be kept hidden
So still no comment on the actual issue plus the habitual personal dig. Why am I not surprised?
I made a comment on a point the OP raised nothing else.
OK so you got your knickers in a twist and accused me of all sorts and are now bleating because I haven't addressed some point as if you are the sole arbiter of what should and should not be addressed. There are enough arguments on here without you trying to start one on things that have not been said.
It is very revealing that, as usual with any similar thread, we have people making irrelevant comments to try and divert the thread away from the actual issue, the usual totally unsubstantiated claims about fraud and the usual trolling comments about a programme where the maker of the comment clearly has not watched the programme.
It would be nice if, just for once, the benefit bashers gave their views on why they think PIP is the right policy rather than reforming DLA, with specific focus on the numbers that will lose their entitlement, the new tick box test, its descriptors and its costs, the level of training of those doing the tests, the proposed amount of savings, the actual amount of "savings", the overwhelming opposition from charities and disabled peoples organisations etc etc
I will guarantee you that none of the people in the show or people like them will have their benefits cut. However, when the country has a disabled population that exceeds that of Japan's, a nation that has a population of 130 million, you can bet there is a problem.
People talk about campaigns and moral outrage but what do they expect.
It is very easy to maintain a disinterested neutrality when you are not affected, to walk by the other side of the road you are far more interested if your house is burgled than if it happens in the next street
Anger and outrage at Injustice is a normal human reaction, does anyone think slavery or apartheid etc would have been ended without some form of campaign.
Many of us have seen how opportunities for disabled people have been revolutionised in our lifetimes, we fear these are being blown away and we cannot stand idly by.
Why decry us for at least having a bit of spirit about us instead of being the passive non-entities that some would like us to remain.
Unless of course there is some other agenda that is meant to be kept hidden
Very true. I am glad that I do not share the same selfish streak that some possess. I will actually be better off under PIP as I will qualify for at least the standard daily living component (I have chosen not to claim intermediate care for DLA even though I qualify, as I don't possess Cameron's sense of entitlement) but I look at how it will affect others. I feel sorry for those who cannot empathise.
People over the years have fought bravely to get disabled people to the position whereby more are able to work, while others can maintain some independence and dignity. We cannot, as Tanni Gray-Thompson correctly points out, allow this progress to go into reverse with a return to the position of 30 and more years ago when disabled people were stuck, out of sight, out of mind.
Comments
Interesting how many Tories do not know any disabled people but lots of people who are frauds. You can tell a man or woman by the company they keep.
Been told to show it at a time when the politicians will be least embarrassed and feel themselves righteously justified. Out of a matter of interest it says this MUST be cut. Why?
BIB: I think you have hit the nail on the head. I do think that is behind an awful lot of the posts on here but the posters daren't actually say it that bluntly. I think its also behind a lot of the government policies affecting the disabled. I dont think any of the political parties really care about the needs and the plight of many of this country's disabled citizens. I know I will be accused of hyperbole etc etc but I truly fear for the future of those with disabilities.
Nor do they wish to do their civic duty in grassing up these people who are fraudulently claiming, to the authorities.
Strange people.
I will guarantee you that none of the people in the show or people like them will have their benefits cut. However, when the country has a disabled population that exceeds that of Japan's, a nation that has a population of 130 million, you can bet there is a problem.
No you can bet you are not comparing like for like, or that there is a problem with Japan not counting as disabled people who most other countries and international organizations would count.
In Japan the officially recognized disabled receive a disabled person's certification notebook. To receive Japanese state benefits you generally need to be so disabled that you are incapable of living independently. These officially recognized as disabled are probably who you are referring to.
The equivalent in the UK would be those claiming Disability Living Allowance high or middle rate care and those on industrial injury disablement high enough to get carer's allowance. The total figure is probably going to be around half or less of that for Japan.
In Japan the disabled typically go to special schools as children then most spend their lives in rehabilitation centers, where they work earning pocket money the equivalent to a couple of hundred pounds a month. Most do not get the opportunity to live independently. Japan despite having a quota system that requires private sector companies to employ disabled people has a far worse record of employing the disabled in the private sector than the UK does.
To follow Japan's example would be for the UK to go backwards. To ignore the needs and lives of the disabled or to institutionalize the disabled.
Since para olympians were featured in the program. I will also point out that Japan a country with twice the UK population got 16 medals in the paralympics, in comparsion to Great Britain getting 120 medals in the paralympics.
Actually if you look at the point I was addressing you will see you have got everything wrong. That's the trouble with people with moral outrage they often don't stop to read things properly and argue about things that weren't even discussed
No not a pointless comment. I was commenting on one particular aspect that the OP raised and my comment was particular to that.
OK so you are on some sort of campaign, that's fine, but it does not mean everything should be seem through your blinkered viewpoint
No windy it was not a timely documentary as there was nothing new in it about horsemeat it was just a rehash of what had been on various news reports.
As to your woeful claim that I am coming over rather dismissive and ignorant about the problems disabled folk face under this government that is just laughable as I never addressed that. I addressed a particular point you raised and as you didn't like the answer you now seem to want to move the goal posts.....................
Sorry don't understand that or how it relates to my post that you quoted
What have I got wrong, I may be too stupidf to undersrtand so please explain in plain english
TBH and this is going to sound horrible but I do wonder sometimes if medical advances have come too far - especially when you read of the awful time some parents have with their disabled children who are born blind, deaf, dumb and in constant pain - I would hate to see a child of mine suffer like that and struggle to see what sort of life the child can have - not that I'm proposing euthanasia or anything
Under DLA he is receiving High Rate Mobility £54.05 a week.
Under PIP he would need to score 12pts to get Enhanced Rate Mobility £54.05
But the PIP descriptors include "aided" that is with the use of his artificial limb. Being able to move 20mtrs aided by the use of an artificial limb would make him ineligible for the enhanced rate. For the 12pt descriptors he would need to have to use a wheelchair to move more than 20mtrs.
Under what descriptor would he be eligible for PIP enhanced rate mobility?
How does he make a claim on your guarantee?
I dont think it sounds horrible but I do think its a whole different debate
I do not want to under estimate the challenges and struggle (often caused by inadequate support systems and thoughtless and ignorant oeople) but also wish to paint the other side of the picture
Many parents of disabled children point to the joys that their children bring and the incredible satisfaction of seeing their children achieve and in many cases go on to live independent lives
I have seen this many times with blind and partially sighted people and my life has been enriched no end by such people and their parents. I hear similar from parents and youngsters with cerebral palsy.
I emphasise that it is not easy, I shudder to think what it must be like to see your child in constant pain and my heart goes out to all concerned but lets not give an impression that having a disability makes someones like not worth living, you do not have to be Stephen Hawkings or Stevie Wonder or a top paralympian like David Weir or Hannah Cockcvroft to make a success of your life but you may need a little extra support
The point, and the only point I addressed was explained in post #4 and was a direct reply to a question raised by the OP
In your post to me you attack me for a whole host of reasons none of which I had commented on. To say i was surprised at your attack is mild to say the least
OK, if I am reading you right you are saying that the fact Channel 4 cancelled the programme once for a prog on horsemeat says something about the priority the issue has
One might alternatively suggest that the fact they did not cancel it altogether or put it in a graveyard slot suggests they editorial continued to regard it as importnat and of interest to a number of viewers
I accept you did not say the things I inferred but this is a politics forum and not one just about editorial choices so what really was behind the post if you do not feel that the issues are euither irrelevant or should not be aired.
It might be a fair critique to say the programme was presented in a slightly populist and even simplistic manner buit that is the nature of the medium and this particular genre of political programming.
So still no comment on the actual issue plus the habitual personal dig. Why am I not surprised?
to Channel 4.
Precisely, and that was the only comment I made.
People talk about campaigns and moral outrage but what do they expect.
It is very easy to maintain a disinterested neutrality when you are not affected, to walk by the other side of the road you are far more interested if your house is burgled than if it happens in the next street
Anger and outrage at Injustice is a normal human reaction, does anyone think slavery or apartheid etc would have been ended without some form of campaign.
Many of us have seen how opportunities for disabled people have been revolutionised in our lifetimes, we fear these are being blown away and we cannot stand idly by.
Why decry us for at least having a bit of spirit about us instead of being the passive non-entities that some would like us to remain.
Unless of course there is some other agenda that is meant to be kept hidden
I made a comment on a point the OP raised nothing else.
OK so you got your knickers in a twist and accused me of all sorts and are now bleating because I haven't addressed some point as if you are the sole arbiter of what should and should not be addressed. There are enough arguments on here without you trying to start one on things that have not been said.
It would be nice if, just for once, the benefit bashers gave their views on why they think PIP is the right policy rather than reforming DLA, with specific focus on the numbers that will lose their entitlement, the new tick box test, its descriptors and its costs, the level of training of those doing the tests, the proposed amount of savings, the actual amount of "savings", the overwhelming opposition from charities and disabled peoples organisations etc etc
Another spurious statistic.
So as I said
Case proved I think
Very true. I am glad that I do not share the same selfish streak that some possess. I will actually be better off under PIP as I will qualify for at least the standard daily living component (I have chosen not to claim intermediate care for DLA even though I qualify, as I don't possess Cameron's sense of entitlement) but I look at how it will affect others. I feel sorry for those who cannot empathise.
People over the years have fought bravely to get disabled people to the position whereby more are able to work, while others can maintain some independence and dignity. We cannot, as Tanni Gray-Thompson correctly points out, allow this progress to go into reverse with a return to the position of 30 and more years ago when disabled people were stuck, out of sight, out of mind.