Hi all, I am new to this forum, so I apologize if I cover ground already discussed. I am a big fan of the show, and like those discussing in this thread find the Doc's character a fascinating psychological study.
I agree with mmDerdekea and Last romatic. I find many of Marin's actions, albeit extremely frustrating to watch, believable because I think the character does not think he deserves to be loved, and that Louisa (and James) would be better off without him. Recalling the early insight we got that his own mother not only doesn't love him, but that his birth ruined her life! Yikes! I find him heroic because he keeps trying to be worthy of Louisa's love. Then there is the whole co-dependent thing that she keeps leaving, which is exactly what he expects to happen, so he never runs after her, because he thinks she's right to leave him and he loves her even more for having done so.
Personally, I think people can change, and in this case it is Louisa's love that has helped Martin to evolve. I could go on and on about these characters because the writing is so wonderful in creating complex and wonderfully flawed real people.
I also cannot wait for season 6!
Welcome DM_Wonk. We're all waiting with great anticipation for S6, also. This year's filming, in contrast to that of 2011 for S5, hasn't given us much to go on in trying to figure out what's next DM, but we'll find lots to chat about anyway.
Your views on what is going on with Martin (esp. the part that I bolded) are what I think also. I think that was what his part in calling off the wedding was about -- that he thought she would be unhappy married to him and would be asking him to change in ways he didn't think were possible for him; hence he would be unhappy also.
And it applies in spades to his decision not to go after her when she left him again in S5, E6.
The whole draw of the show "Doc Martin" for me is the character of Doc Martin. The complexities of his character, his devastating psyche damage and emotional wounds, his required necessity to finally examine them, and his slow process of healing is pretty much the entirety of the show for me. That other characters are involved in that process, such as LG, his aunts, the locals, his patients, etc, brings interesting plots to the show, which push and test DM. I no doubt stand out for saying it's not the love story that is the foundational draw for me, but it's a fascination with DM. I have an intense interest if DM will be victorious against his own blocks to growth and will attain a healthy self-actualization.
However, the love story is taking precedence, which is fine. It is engaging, when it is not causing us to pull out our hair in frustration. It just means that, as we've all discussed, DM's growth is tied very closely to LG's own growth, and we all know she needs to overcome her own individual blocks too.
But, it was the creation alone of DM, and his development throughout the series, which was my key focus for loving the show.
Welcome to the forum Last Romantic,
I really like your user name. I fell in love with not only the characters of the show but the love story also. TV shows today portray modern women in good ways (such as strong and capable), however, they can also be rude, crude and barbaric. (There are certain things that I don't like hearing women say or do, like on the shows Two and a Half Men, or Broke Girls.) Shudder.
I like the fact that Louisa doesn't dress provocatively nor wear a lot of make-up or jewelry. She's not perfect, but she's moral. The Doc is very moral also.
My mom always told me that men like modesty, that it's better to leave more to the imagination. I finally believe her! Thanks Mom.
Hi ReneeBird!
As to the name, sometimes I have felt that I am indeed the "last romantic" when attending various classes, lectures and discussion forums. During one class where the topic of rape emerged, I asked a pertinent question. This prompted a woman to approach me later and say disdainfully, "Oh honey, you're just a romantic!" Later I thought, Yes, and I wish there were more of us around!
It is charming that you say you "fell in love" with this show since it somehow captures the essence of what so many (on this forum or not) feel about it? As in: About Doc Martin? I'm in love--nothing further needs to be added...
Also agree with your thoughts on the portrayals of women, not only on TV but throughout all media today. Women tend to be vulgar, coarse and profane and I really object to the constant denigration of men--and then we wonder why there are so many problems in the world! I have completely stopped watching American sit-coms and am so grateful that there is some good material coming from the UK.
The Doc Martin writers have created a lovely character in Louisa (Caroline Catz is so perfect for the role) and yes, despite her flaws she is very wholesome. Now that I think of it, the contrast between her and other females on the show, like the gang of teenage village girls, is striking.
Welcome DM_Wonk. We're all waiting with great anticipation for S6, also. This year's filming, in contrast to that of 2011 for S5, hasn't given us much to go on in trying to figure out what's next DM, but we'll find lots to chat about anyway.
Your views on what is going on with Martin (esp. the part that I bolded) are what I think also. I think that was what his part in calling off the wedding was about -- that he thought she would be unhappy married to him and would be asking him to change in ways he didn't think were possible for him; hence he would be unhappy also.
And it applies in spades to his decision not to go after her when she left him again in S5, E6.
NewPark, I appreciate the kind words of welcome. I had never made the next step in my own logic about why Martin said that she wouldn't make him happy when calling off the wedding. I assumed he was lying, which is out of character, so it never made as much sense as it does now. Thanks!
Well for me, having first seen DM just last fall, this first thing that hooked me was the incredible scenery of the plane coming along the Cornish coast. After that is was Martin Clunes AND the character of Doc Martin. What kept me intrigued was the subtle humor, the outright humor, and that each character, despite how little they might be on camera, was fully developed. We knew them completely with little introduction.
There are of course some running gags that we all expect and mostly accept (the constant interruptions of tender moments do get on our nerves), but they are so woven into the characters and the stories that we just go with the flow.
And if you look back at some of the posts, nearly every scene, event, and conversation is truly meaningful of the story and our characters.
And although I had gotten and watched all the DVDs before finding the forum, finding the forum has been a part of the overall experience.
So, Last Romantic, glad you have found us and as you see, we all have the "fever", we just caught it differently.
Isn't it fascinating--all the different views on this show that seems to have such magic about it!? I liked ReneeBird's sentiment--"fell in love" since those 3 words seem to sum it up, although besotted seems to apply as well! I think I will make up a list of applicable words to describe how Doc Martin makes us feel.
The incredible Cornish coast is so much a part of it-- and I see that it is driving people to go there in droves. Interestingly when I first started to watch the show, I kept hearing the word Truro which somehow rang a bell, but I ignored it. It wasn't until getting close to Christmas of last year that it hit me--I have a cousin in Truro!! I have been sending a card to Truro every Christmas for years but I had never made the connection. I've never met this cousin and his family, but he has told me to visit if I ever travel to England! This won't be happening any time soon, but I can dream...
Hi Last Romantic; welcome to the forum. You may be interested in looking back at posts 1796, 2103 and 2150 from part 13 of the thread. They are some thoughts that I had which seem to be on topic for this discussion re: connections between Doc Martin, fairy tales and the early English novel. I'm kind of flattered that my mythology has grown such that people are remembering me to have said smart things which are beyond the scope of my reading.:) I have a five CD set of Joseph Campbell's lectures, but have yet to listen to them. Thanks for the recommendation of "Local Hero" I have not seen this but will definitely look for it. I loved Ned Devine. It is sort of like Doc Martin and the legend of the cloutie (small village bands together to throw smoke in the eyes of the big city men and effect the perfect swindle). I have never seen the connections between DM and House -- there's a similar medical detective element, a similar disregard for politeness, but the humour and "heart" of DM are entirely different. If I compare DM to anything American I would go for the Jack Nicolson/Helen Hunt movie "As good as it gets." I also see what Biffpup means about the kind of magic realism that hangs over both Cecily Alaska and Portwenn, Cornwall, and the effect that wreaks upon the medical incomer.
I am looking forward to seeing your previous posts on subjects that interest me so much, although I may have a bit of trouble finding them. (I am somewhat technologicallychallenged!) Yes, it seems that your reputation precedes you--I take it you are a popular member here, even if you haven't read Joseph Campbell! I am having trepidation when it comes to this man's writings. My husband, a true scholar, had no use for J. Campbell and I have no idea why, except perhaps that Campbell clung to the infamous Golden Bough by James Frazer. If this work does depict mankind as progressing from magic to religious belief to scientific thought (Wikipedia) and Campbell maintained this as well, I can understand why my husband would have had a problem with him. I did read what seems to me some very strange ideas from Campbell about fantasy and imagination emerging from organs of our bodies. However, I have strayed way off topic here and hope the forum members will forgive me.
It doesn't seem that the Americans are able to give us the depth and honesty in TV and film that we see coming out of the UK and Europe in my opinion. (I watched House once and never again!) Not to say there haven't been some good/great American movies that did offer something more than stereotypical characters and boring plots. I think that Groundhog Day with Bill Murray seems to bear quite a resemblance to Doc Martin: it offered us humour as well as drama and always kept us guessing; it took place in a small town with interesting inhabitants; the main character was a very flawed person who was destined to change; he falls for the beautiful and virtuous girl (pretty perfect, unlike Louisa); he struggles and fails time and again (necessarily in this movie); there is a resolution (not yet seen in Doc Martin). Have you seen this one? I wonder if there are even more movies out there that are Doc Martinesque?
There is another Australian series "Seachange" which is great and reminicent of Northern Exposure and DM written after Northern Exposure but before DM.
In Seachange the female lead's husband has an affair with her sister. The show starts as the female lead, Laura, decides to leave her high powered job as a city lawyer and relocate to a small seaside town to become the local magistrate taking her two teenage children, who she's had little to do with, with her.
Amazingly the object of her affection (much against her will as she's sworn off men) leaves the show after 2 seasons but they introduce a new hero who is even better.
The premise is her acceptance of herself and her realisation of what is important in her life.
No one in the show is a glamorous model or macho, muscled male. The great thing about this show is that Laura's problems and somewhat abrasive attitudes are believable and understandable so you can sympathise with her.
The court cases (small village stuff) Laura deals with each week reflect what is happening in her life.
I'm enjoying the recommendations and will see if I can rent or buy or stream "Seachange." Sounds like my cup of tea. I'm definitely going for "Ned Devine" now.
Yes you must see Waking Ned Devine--I'd say as soon as possible! I agree with your comments and your analysis of the show and like it that you say "I can't explain it". I find that this sort of phenomenon is inexplicable, at least at first. But I'm sure you would agree that the feeling, the something, the mystery is irresistible and might deserve to be explored further? I have never seen Northern Exposure or the fractured fairy tales you mention. For now I am content to be mesmerized by Doc Martin.
I will, absolutely, locate and watch "Waking Ned Devine". As for you, and anyone who loves Doc Martin, next time you have some time on your hands, just watch the first few episodes of "Northern Exposure." You'll be hooked. I advise that you watch a legit copy, not a grainy, chopped, ancient YouTube version.
I grieved when that show disintegrated after something like five or six seasons (the lead character, the grouchy and unhappy doctor, left due to some kind of dispute, I think) and thought I would never find anything like it again. That was years ago.
Then I watched a couple of episodes of "Doc Martin", loved it, and something kept tickling at the back of my mind. Finally it dawned on me. Oh! It's a reincarnation, British version. Martin Clunes actually paid tribute to Northern Exposure in a couple of interviews, calling it an inspiration, if I remember correctly.
It's the same only different, and I recommend it. You must start from the beginning.
I totally agree. What worries me is that the departure of Ben Bolt writer & director was possibly??? because of a disagreement between him and MC about DM growing and transforming. If s6 is another retrograde step in DMs character I will be most disappointed. I am not lulled into a sense of security by the declaration at the castle because I was taken in by s4 ending "I was wrong, wrong about everything".
S5 started with a huge retrograde step in DMs development and a strange change in LGs character/personality (annoyingly plot driven) too.
I am perfectly happy with gruff, monosyllabic and rude as long as DM is also shown as a plausible object of LGs affection.
I, personally, don't believe I'd be so drawn to the show without the series 1 & 2 DM who had a very different personality to the s4+ DM.
I completely understand your point, cc.cookie, but I do think our Doc very slowly, in a very plodding way, has made progress. MC likes to talk about the one step forward, two steps back thing, but I think the Doc has very slowly, very gradually, made progress. It's just so slow and so forward, backward, forward that it drives us crazy.
At the end of S4, he became emotional, realized how much LG meant to him, and fell in love with his baby. Then, yes, S5 happened, and he regressed.
But at the end of S5, something else happened, another big step forward. In fact, it was huge. He said he'll stay in Portwenn. I know for his career, this isn't a smart move (and I still think it's temporary), but for his emotional development, his change into a real human being with feelings and attachments, it's massive. It's growth. And this kind of thing keeps me hooked on the show. A little step each series.
I will, absolutely, locate and watch "Waking Ned Devine". As for you, and anyone who loves Doc Martin, next time you have some time on your hands, just watch the first few episodes of "Northern Exposure." You'll be hooked. I advise that you watch a legit copy, not a grainy, chopped, ancient YouTube version.
I grieved when that show disintegrated after something like five or six seasons (the lead character, the grouchy and unhappy doctor, left due to some kind of dispute, I think) and thought I would never find anything like it again. That was years ago.
Then I watched a couple of episodes of "Doc Martin", loved it, and something kept tickling at the back of my mind. Finally it dawned on me. Oh! It's a reincarnation, British version. Martin Clunes actually paid tribute to Northern Exposure in a couple of interviews, calling it an inspiration, if I remember correctly.
It's the same only different, and I recommend it. You must start from the beginning.
Thank you, Biffpup. I just looked it up online and see that it only ran for 6 seasons--this kind of gives me a sad, sinking feeling about Doc Martin. Will this be his last season as well?--I am so hopeful that they won't give up after 6! I'd be willing to wait longer, even 3 years to see more and would still be loyal if they moved it from Port Wenn to London! Even though I thoroughly enjoy the reruns/repeats, we would like something fresh--we need to be stretched.
I will see if Northern Exposure is at the library and take your advice and watch it fresh--no grainy You Tube! I wouldn't have come across it during its run--my husband was suffering through cancer then.
Just remembered another old favourite--Fawlty Towers. I was heartbroken when they stopped after only 12 episodes. (Unsure why--something to do with John Cleese's marriage breakup perhaps?)
I will, absolutely, locate and watch "Waking Ned Devine". As for you, and anyone who loves Doc Martin, next time you have some time on your hands, just watch the first few episodes of "Northern Exposure." You'll be hooked. I advise that you watch a legit copy, not a grainy, chopped, ancient YouTube version.
I grieved when that show disintegrated after something like five or six seasons (the lead character, the grouchy and unhappy doctor, left due to some kind of dispute, I think) and thought I would never find anything like it again. That was years ago.
Then I watched a couple of episodes of "Doc Martin", loved it, and something kept tickling at the back of my mind. Finally it dawned on me. Oh! It's a reincarnation, British version. Martin Clunes actually paid tribute to Northern Exposure in a couple of interviews, calling it an inspiration, if I remember correctly.
It's the same only different, and I recommend it. You must start from the beginning.
Biff - you really have to put the first 3 series of BallyK on your list too - I think you would love it. I did watch Northern Exposure and enjoyed it, but I can't say that I saw all of the episodes. I also have that one (DVD only ) in my queue. I have a huge queue for both streaming and DVDs at the moment. It's what I will use to get me from S6 to S7 (fingers crossed! ). My summer project to get me to the broadcast of S6 episodes is to rewatch the Doctor Who modern episodes (starting with Christopher Eccleston). Since I was new to the program, a rewatch will help me to catch a lot I didn't understand the first time around.
Hi all, I am new to this forum, so I apologize if I cover ground already discussed. I am a big fan of the show, and like those discussing in this thread find the Doc's character a fascinating psychological study.
I agree with mmDerdekea and Last romatic. I find many of Marin's actions, albeit extremely frustrating to watch, believable because I think the character does not think he deserves to be loved, and that Louisa (and James) would be better off without him. Recalling the early insight we got that his own mother not only doesn't love him, but that his birth ruined her life! Yikes! I find him heroic because he keeps trying to be worthy of Louisa's love. Then there is the whole co-dependent thing that she keeps leaving, which is exactly what he expects to happen, so he never runs after her, because he thinks she's right to leave him and he loves her even more for having done so.
Personally, I think people can change, and in this case it is Louisa's love that has helped Martin to evolve. I could go on and on about these characters because the writing is so wonderful in creating complex and wonderfully flawed real people.
I also cannot wait for season 6!
I'm new to the forum too and can see there is much to learn here! There was that scene in Series 3, Episode 20, I believe, where Martin does go after her. She had told him she didn't want to see him again, then those heartrending scenes where he is thinking about her, and finally the next day he goes to her house. He is unable, however, to wait until she answers the door--runs away, in fact. Then he shows extraordinary courage when he asks her to marry him; it is significant that she had just used the word to describe him. It is as thought the word itself breaks the spell, even though he denies it. I just love the unspoken tension throughout that episode!
Why do you think he expects her to keep leaving him? I guess I'm thinking of the time that she took the baby and went to stay with her mother. Seems to me that he was nonplussed when she left--he really wasn't expecting it. And then there was that following scene where he is now back to mending a clock. Oh, that look of hopeless resignation!! Here he is displaying his broken spirit again which we will see he is able to overcome under duress with the gift of Louisa's love.
I'm new to the forum too and can see there is much to learn here! There was that scene in Series 3, Episode 20, I believe, where Martin does go after her. She had told him she didn't want to see him again, then those heartrending scenes where he is thinking about her, and finally the next day he goes to her house. He is unable, however, to wait until she answers the door--runs away, in fact. Then he shows extraordinary courage when he asks her to marry him; it is significant that she had just used the word to describe him. It is as thought the word itself breaks the spell, even though he denies it. I just love the unspoken tension throughout that episode!
Why do you think he expects her to keep leaving him? I guess I'm thinking of the time that she took the baby and went to stay with her mother. Seems to me that he was nonplussed when she left--he really wasn't expecting it. And then there was that following scene where he is now back to mending a clock. Oh, that look of hopeless resignation!! Here he is displaying his broken spirit again which we will see he is able to overcome under duress with the gift of Louisa's love.
His expectation that she will leave him is unconscious. In the example of when she leaves in season 5, I agree he is confused and surprised, because he has been working very hard to be a good father and partner. He just doesn't know how to do that. But as you said, he is immediately resigned to her leaving. Why would that be if he didn't think think he deserved it and that she was right to leave?
One thing that particularly annoys me through season 5 is the lack of acknowledgement of how much Martin is doing to help with James. Particularly Louisa who does not defend him to her mother. His perfect little world has been completely disrupted. She breaks the espresso machine and the venetian tumbler and he does not get angry with her. He is expressing his love through his actions even if not vocalizing it.
Fawlty Towers -- is hilarious no matter how many times I watch it. On permanent streaming Netflicks. Was it filmed in or near Cornwall?
Doctor Who: although when I was much younger I read a lot of science fiction, I can't understand any of Dr. Who. Maybe that's because the episodes don't sustain my interest and I keep missing vital plot points. I keep promising myself to start way back and work forward, but never quite get around to it.
I remember Northern Exposure as very clever and funny. I think the doctor hero was much more "relatable" than DM, even if he was the fish out of water.
Ballyk -- I will try to watch again. I don't remember it as having the bite of DM but very enjoyable as well.
Hasn't MC mentioned at least one more British series that had an influence on their thinking about how to develop DM?
I don't think she broke his espresso machine. It think she thought it was broken when it spewed.
He checks the "steam thing" and it works as far as I can tell.
Also, later in the episode, he is seen making espresso when she is folding clothes in the kitchen.
Many people have said she broke it. From what I can see, she thinks she broke it, it wasn't actually broken. Louisa isn't an angel in this series, but I want to defend her on what is an actual fact about the espresso machine.
His expectation that she will leave him is unconscious. In the example of when she leaves in season 5, I agree he is confused and surprised, because he has been working very hard to be a good father and partner. He just doesn't know how to do that. But as you said, he is immediately resigned to her leaving. Why would that be if he didn't think think he deserved it and that she was right to leave?
One thing that particularly annoys me through season 5 is the lack of acknowledgement of how much Martin is doing to help with James. Particularly Louisa who does not defend him to her mother. His perfect little world has been completely disrupted. She breaks the espresso machine and the venetian tumbler and he does not get angry with her. He is expressing his love through his actions even if not vocalizing it.
Yes that was strange. Another of those complete character changes for LG because she usually defends him and in this case she should have defended him. Some of these character lapses in s5 were plot driven ( when AR, a psychiatrist, says people can't change) but this lapse wasn't even plot driven.
I am looking forward to seeing your previous posts on subjects that interest me so much, although I may have a bit of trouble finding them. (I am somewhat technologicallychallenged!) Yes, it seems that your reputation precedes you--I take it you are a popular member here, even if you haven't read Joseph Campbell! I am having trepidation when it comes to this man's writings. My husband, a true scholar, had no use for J. Campbell and I have no idea why, except perhaps that Campbell clung to the infamous Golden Bough by James Frazer. If this work does depict mankind as progressing from magic to religious belief to scientific thought (Wikipedia) and Campbell maintained this as well, I can understand why my husband would have had a problem with him. I did read what seems to me some very strange ideas from Campbell about fantasy and imagination emerging from organs of our bodies. However, I have strayed way off topic here and hope the forum members will forgive me.
It doesn't seem that the Americans are able to give us the depth and honesty in TV and film that we see coming out of the UK and Europe in my opinion. (I watched House once and never again!) Not to say there haven't been some good/great American movies that did offer something more than stereotypical characters and boring plots. I think that Groundhog Day with Bill Murray seems to bear quite a resemblance to Doc Martin: it offered us humour as well as drama and always kept us guessing; it took place in a small town with interesting inhabitants; the main character was a very flawed person who was destined to change; he falls for the beautiful and virtuous girl (pretty perfect, unlike Louisa); he struggles and fails time and again (necessarily in this movie); there is a resolution (not yet seen in Doc Martin). Have you seen this one? I wonder if there are even more movies out there that are Doc Martinesque?
I think you will love Local Hero.
Continuing OT on Campbell: Somehow when I think of Campbell, Jung comes to mind and since I am definitely not a fan of Karl Jung, I am also suspicious of Campbell. But he has had great influence and I keep promising myself to read enough of him to see what the fuss is about.
Fawlty Towers -- is hilarious no matter how many times I watch it. On permanent streaming Netflicks. Was it filmed in or near Cornwall?
Doctor Who: although when I was much younger I read a lot of science fiction, I can't understand any of Dr. Who. Maybe that's because the episodes don't sustain my interest and I keep missing vital plot points. I keep promising myself to start way back and work forward, but never quite get around to it.
I remember Northern Exposure as very clever and funny. I think the doctor hero was much more "relatable" than DM, even if he was the fish out of water.
Ballyk -- I will try to watch again. I don't remember it as having the bite of DM but very enjoyable as well.
Hasn't MC mentioned at least one more British series that had an influence on their thinking about how to develop DM?
Fawlty towers - John Cleese on the graham norton show (with MC - so worth watching) said they wanted to finish the show on a high and they didnt think they could write anymore good episodes. He warned MC not to take DM further if he didnt think the writing could be great.
Doctor Who- not of any interest to me.
Ballykiss was ok but I didn't appreciate having the rug pulled out from under my feet. I thought they could have done better.
Northern Exposure - loved it.
Local Hero - loved it.
BUT I loved the 6 part P & P so my taste may not be the same as anyone else's. :cool:
His expectation that she will leave him is unconscious. In the example of when she leaves in season 5, I agree he is confused and surprised, because he has been working very hard to be a good father and partner. He just doesn't know how to do that. But as you said, he is immediately resigned to her leaving. Why would that be if he didn't think think he deserved it and that she was right to leave?
One thing that particularly annoys me through season 5 is the lack of acknowledgement of how much Martin is doing to help with James. Particularly Louisa who does not defend him to her mother. His perfect little world has been completely disrupted. She breaks the espresso machine and the venetian tumbler and he does not get angry with her. He is expressing his love through his actions even if not vocalizing it.
I think these are really pivotal points in trying to figure out what is going on with Martin -- why he appears to be so vacillating, with-holding, torn and sometimes desperate. And we need to do that, b/c otherwise it's just an exercise in seeing how long the "will they, won't they" gambit will keep viewers attention.
The producers have made it quite clear to us that Martin grew up with unloving, in fact actively hateful, parents. A child in that situation usually internalizes a strong sense that he is unlovable, and cannot please people who matter to him. Martin took refuge in a biting intellect and skill in surgery. In the conversation with Joan, when he told her he was leaving and she chided him for not taking on the parent role, he said he "wouldn't be good at all that." Sure, he wanted to be reassured at that moment, but I do think there is/was a large part of him that truly believes that he isn't good at being in a loving relationship, that his efforts are doomed to end up making everybody miserable. He just doesn't believe he has anything to offer. I think he is largely in denial of the strength of his own desire for love and connection, because he can't believe he can achieve it. Every once in a while, when truly desperate, he is able to reach out for what he wants and what he feels slipping away -- but when the intellectualizing part takes over again, he regresses.
Louisa is amazingly patient with him, but I have always thought that she cannot in the end tolerate his inability to connect with her (or to sustain his connection with her) in an intimate way -- even though she does know, I think, that he loves her, and he tries to show it to her in many ways that don't actually require him to be intimate. So being patient with her messiness and caring for the baby is not sufficient, if he can't actually acknowledge to her how much he loves her. At least for Louisa -- and I'm not sure it would be for me, either.
I think these are really pivotal points in trying to figure out what is going on with Martin -- why he appears to be so vacillating, with-holding, torn and sometimes desperate. And we need to do that, b/c otherwise it's just an exercise in seeing how long the "will they, won't they" gambit will keep viewers attention.
The producers have made it quite clear to us that Martin grew up with unloving, in fact actively hateful, parents. A child in that situation usually internalizes a strong sense that he is unlovable, and cannot please people who matter to him. Martin took refuge in a biting intellect and skill in surgery. In the conversation with Joan, when he told her he was leaving and she chided him for not taking on the parent role, he said he "wouldn't be good at all that." Sure, he wanted to be reassured at that moment, but I do think there is/was a large part of him that truly believes that he isn't good at being in a loving relationship, that his efforts are doomed to end up making everybody miserable. He just doesn't believe he has anything to offer. I think he is largely in denial of the strength of his own desire for love and connection, because he can't believe he can achieve it. Every once in a while, when truly desperate, he is able to reach out for what he wants and what he feels slipping away -- but when the intellectualizing part takes over again, he regresses.
Louisa is amazingly patient with him, but I have always thought that she cannot in the end tolerate his inability to connect with her (or to sustain his connection with her) in an intimate way -- even though she does know, I think, that he loves her, and he tries to show it to her in many ways that don't actually require him to be intimate. So being patient with her messiness and caring for the baby is not sufficient, if he can't actually acknowledge to her how much he loves her. At least for Louisa -- and I'm not sure it would be for me, either.
What you say is very true NewPark, and certainly makes it clearer for me. But, even if his helping with the baby wasn't sufficient for her LG should have denied her mother's accusation that he did nothing to help her. I don't even understand the point of that line.
What you say is very true NewPark, and certainly makes it clearer for me. But, even if his helping with the baby wasn't sufficient for her LG should have denied her mother's accusation that he did nothing to help her. I don't even understand the point of that line.
Yes, that made me cringe. Perhaps it's little girl Louisa, wanting Mom's sympathy for being in a relationship that is in so many ways unsatisfactory for her, and also it's venting a little about her anger at Martin to someone she knows will sympathize. In other words, maybe what she's expressing is a bit of neediness and hostility at that moment, even though what it's overtly about is not accurate. If that makes any sense.
Biff - you really have to put the first 3 series of BallyK on your list too - I think you would love it. I did watch Northern Exposure and enjoyed it, but I can't say that I saw all of the episodes. I also have that one (DVD only ) in my queue. I have a huge queue for both streaming and DVDs at the moment. It's what I will use to get me from S6 to S7 (fingers crossed! ). My summer project to get me to the broadcast of S6 episodes is to rewatch the Doctor Who modern episodes (starting with Christopher Eccleston). Since I was new to the program, a rewatch will help me to catch a lot I didn't understand the first time around.
I will absolutely do that, Shop Girl. Making a list ! Very much a good thing.
Yes that was strange. Another of those complete character changes for LG because she usually defends him and in this case she should have defended him. Some of these character lapses in s5 were plot driven ( when AR, a psychiatrist, says people can't change) but this lapse wasn't even plot driven.
I know that this maybe a bit of a superficial reading of S5, but I didn't see big character changes for either of them. I think they were just incredibly unprepared, unorganized, sleep-deprived first time parents. On top of that was the looming move to London to fulfill the contract and temporarily living in a home filled with someone else's "stuff". Plus, even though he would never show it, Martin had to be dealing with the grief of AJ's death - she was a very important part of his life.
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Welcome DM_Wonk. We're all waiting with great anticipation for S6, also. This year's filming, in contrast to that of 2011 for S5, hasn't given us much to go on in trying to figure out what's next DM, but we'll find lots to chat about anyway.
Your views on what is going on with Martin (esp. the part that I bolded) are what I think also. I think that was what his part in calling off the wedding was about -- that he thought she would be unhappy married to him and would be asking him to change in ways he didn't think were possible for him; hence he would be unhappy also.
And it applies in spades to his decision not to go after her when she left him again in S5, E6.
Just wondering - haven't seen any activity for a while.
Hi ReneeBird!
As to the name, sometimes I have felt that I am indeed the "last romantic" when attending various classes, lectures and discussion forums. During one class where the topic of rape emerged, I asked a pertinent question. This prompted a woman to approach me later and say disdainfully, "Oh honey, you're just a romantic!" Later I thought, Yes, and I wish there were more of us around!
It is charming that you say you "fell in love" with this show since it somehow captures the essence of what so many (on this forum or not) feel about it? As in: About Doc Martin? I'm in love--nothing further needs to be added...
Also agree with your thoughts on the portrayals of women, not only on TV but throughout all media today. Women tend to be vulgar, coarse and profane and I really object to the constant denigration of men--and then we wonder why there are so many problems in the world! I have completely stopped watching American sit-coms and am so grateful that there is some good material coming from the UK.
The Doc Martin writers have created a lovely character in Louisa (Caroline Catz is so perfect for the role) and yes, despite her flaws she is very wholesome. Now that I think of it, the contrast between her and other females on the show, like the gang of teenage village girls, is striking.
NewPark, I appreciate the kind words of welcome. I had never made the next step in my own logic about why Martin said that she wouldn't make him happy when calling off the wedding. I assumed he was lying, which is out of character, so it never made as much sense as it does now. Thanks!
Isn't it fascinating--all the different views on this show that seems to have such magic about it!? I liked ReneeBird's sentiment--"fell in love" since those 3 words seem to sum it up, although besotted seems to apply as well! I think I will make up a list of applicable words to describe how Doc Martin makes us feel.
The incredible Cornish coast is so much a part of it-- and I see that it is driving people to go there in droves. Interestingly when I first started to watch the show, I kept hearing the word Truro which somehow rang a bell, but I ignored it. It wasn't until getting close to Christmas of last year that it hit me--I have a cousin in Truro!! I have been sending a card to Truro every Christmas for years but I had never made the connection. I've never met this cousin and his family, but he has told me to visit if I ever travel to England! This won't be happening any time soon, but I can dream...
I am looking forward to seeing your previous posts on subjects that interest me so much, although I may have a bit of trouble finding them. (I am somewhat technologically challenged!) Yes, it seems that your reputation precedes you--I take it you are a popular member here, even if you haven't read Joseph Campbell! I am having trepidation when it comes to this man's writings. My husband, a true scholar, had no use for J. Campbell and I have no idea why, except perhaps that Campbell clung to the infamous Golden Bough by James Frazer. If this work does depict mankind as progressing from magic to religious belief to scientific thought (Wikipedia) and Campbell maintained this as well, I can understand why my husband would have had a problem with him. I did read what seems to me some very strange ideas from Campbell about fantasy and imagination emerging from organs of our bodies. However, I have strayed way off topic here and hope the forum members will forgive me.
It doesn't seem that the Americans are able to give us the depth and honesty in TV and film that we see coming out of the UK and Europe in my opinion. (I watched House once and never again!) Not to say there haven't been some good/great American movies that did offer something more than stereotypical characters and boring plots. I think that Groundhog Day with Bill Murray seems to bear quite a resemblance to Doc Martin: it offered us humour as well as drama and always kept us guessing; it took place in a small town with interesting inhabitants; the main character was a very flawed person who was destined to change; he falls for the beautiful and virtuous girl (pretty perfect, unlike Louisa); he struggles and fails time and again (necessarily in this movie); there is a resolution (not yet seen in Doc Martin). Have you seen this one? I wonder if there are even more movies out there that are Doc Martinesque?
I think you will love Local Hero.
Great minds, dmbesotted. I was wondering exactly the same thing. Where are you, Adelie? Aren't you planning a trip to Port Isaac soon?
I'm enjoying the recommendations and will see if I can rent or buy or stream "Seachange." Sounds like my cup of tea. I'm definitely going for "Ned Devine" now.
Thanks, everybody.
I will, absolutely, locate and watch "Waking Ned Devine". As for you, and anyone who loves Doc Martin, next time you have some time on your hands, just watch the first few episodes of "Northern Exposure." You'll be hooked. I advise that you watch a legit copy, not a grainy, chopped, ancient YouTube version.
I grieved when that show disintegrated after something like five or six seasons (the lead character, the grouchy and unhappy doctor, left due to some kind of dispute, I think) and thought I would never find anything like it again. That was years ago.
Then I watched a couple of episodes of "Doc Martin", loved it, and something kept tickling at the back of my mind. Finally it dawned on me. Oh! It's a reincarnation, British version. Martin Clunes actually paid tribute to Northern Exposure in a couple of interviews, calling it an inspiration, if I remember correctly.
It's the same only different, and I recommend it. You must start from the beginning.
I completely understand your point, cc.cookie, but I do think our Doc very slowly, in a very plodding way, has made progress. MC likes to talk about the one step forward, two steps back thing, but I think the Doc has very slowly, very gradually, made progress. It's just so slow and so forward, backward, forward that it drives us crazy.
At the end of S4, he became emotional, realized how much LG meant to him, and fell in love with his baby. Then, yes, S5 happened, and he regressed.
But at the end of S5, something else happened, another big step forward. In fact, it was huge. He said he'll stay in Portwenn. I know for his career, this isn't a smart move (and I still think it's temporary), but for his emotional development, his change into a real human being with feelings and attachments, it's massive. It's growth. And this kind of thing keeps me hooked on the show. A little step each series.
Thank you, Biffpup. I just looked it up online and see that it only ran for 6 seasons--this kind of gives me a sad, sinking feeling about Doc Martin. Will this be his last season as well?--I am so hopeful that they won't give up after 6! I'd be willing to wait longer, even 3 years to see more and would still be loyal if they moved it from Port Wenn to London! Even though I thoroughly enjoy the reruns/repeats, we would like something fresh--we need to be stretched.
I will see if Northern Exposure is at the library and take your advice and watch it fresh--no grainy You Tube! I wouldn't have come across it during its run--my husband was suffering through cancer then.
Just remembered another old favourite--Fawlty Towers. I was heartbroken when they stopped after only 12 episodes. (Unsure why--something to do with John Cleese's marriage breakup perhaps?)
Biff - you really have to put the first 3 series of BallyK on your list too - I think you would love it. I did watch Northern Exposure and enjoyed it, but I can't say that I saw all of the episodes. I also have that one (DVD only
I'm new to the forum too and can see there is much to learn here! There was that scene in Series 3, Episode 20, I believe, where Martin does go after her. She had told him she didn't want to see him again, then those heartrending scenes where he is thinking about her, and finally the next day he goes to her house. He is unable, however, to wait until she answers the door--runs away, in fact. Then he shows extraordinary courage when he asks her to marry him; it is significant that she had just used the word to describe him. It is as thought the word itself breaks the spell, even though he denies it. I just love the unspoken tension throughout that episode!
Why do you think he expects her to keep leaving him? I guess I'm thinking of the time that she took the baby and went to stay with her mother. Seems to me that he was nonplussed when she left--he really wasn't expecting it. And then there was that following scene where he is now back to mending a clock. Oh, that look of hopeless resignation!! Here he is displaying his broken spirit again which we will see he is able to overcome under duress with the gift of Louisa's love.
His expectation that she will leave him is unconscious. In the example of when she leaves in season 5, I agree he is confused and surprised, because he has been working very hard to be a good father and partner. He just doesn't know how to do that. But as you said, he is immediately resigned to her leaving. Why would that be if he didn't think think he deserved it and that she was right to leave?
One thing that particularly annoys me through season 5 is the lack of acknowledgement of how much Martin is doing to help with James. Particularly Louisa who does not defend him to her mother. His perfect little world has been completely disrupted. She breaks the espresso machine and the venetian tumbler and he does not get angry with her. He is expressing his love through his actions even if not vocalizing it.
Doctor Who: although when I was much younger I read a lot of science fiction, I can't understand any of Dr. Who. Maybe that's because the episodes don't sustain my interest and I keep missing vital plot points. I keep promising myself to start way back and work forward, but never quite get around to it.
I remember Northern Exposure as very clever and funny. I think the doctor hero was much more "relatable" than DM, even if he was the fish out of water.
Ballyk -- I will try to watch again. I don't remember it as having the bite of DM but very enjoyable as well.
Hasn't MC mentioned at least one more British series that had an influence on their thinking about how to develop DM?
He checks the "steam thing" and it works as far as I can tell.
Also, later in the episode, he is seen making espresso when she is folding clothes in the kitchen.
Many people have said she broke it. From what I can see, she thinks she broke it, it wasn't actually broken. Louisa isn't an angel in this series, but I want to defend her on what is an actual fact about the espresso machine.
Yes that was strange. Another of those complete character changes for LG because she usually defends him and in this case she should have defended him. Some of these character lapses in s5 were plot driven ( when AR, a psychiatrist, says people can't change) but this lapse wasn't even plot driven.
Continuing OT on Campbell: Somehow when I think of Campbell, Jung comes to mind and since I am definitely not a fan of Karl Jung, I am also suspicious of Campbell. But he has had great influence and I keep promising myself to read enough of him to see what the fuss is about.
Fawlty towers - John Cleese on the graham norton show (with MC - so worth watching) said they wanted to finish the show on a high and they didnt think they could write anymore good episodes. He warned MC not to take DM further if he didnt think the writing could be great.
Doctor Who- not of any interest to me.
Ballykiss was ok but I didn't appreciate having the rug pulled out from under my feet. I thought they could have done better.
Northern Exposure - loved it.
Local Hero - loved it.
BUT I loved the 6 part P & P so my taste may not be the same as anyone else's.
I think these are really pivotal points in trying to figure out what is going on with Martin -- why he appears to be so vacillating, with-holding, torn and sometimes desperate. And we need to do that, b/c otherwise it's just an exercise in seeing how long the "will they, won't they" gambit will keep viewers attention.
The producers have made it quite clear to us that Martin grew up with unloving, in fact actively hateful, parents. A child in that situation usually internalizes a strong sense that he is unlovable, and cannot please people who matter to him. Martin took refuge in a biting intellect and skill in surgery. In the conversation with Joan, when he told her he was leaving and she chided him for not taking on the parent role, he said he "wouldn't be good at all that." Sure, he wanted to be reassured at that moment, but I do think there is/was a large part of him that truly believes that he isn't good at being in a loving relationship, that his efforts are doomed to end up making everybody miserable. He just doesn't believe he has anything to offer. I think he is largely in denial of the strength of his own desire for love and connection, because he can't believe he can achieve it. Every once in a while, when truly desperate, he is able to reach out for what he wants and what he feels slipping away -- but when the intellectualizing part takes over again, he regresses.
Louisa is amazingly patient with him, but I have always thought that she cannot in the end tolerate his inability to connect with her (or to sustain his connection with her) in an intimate way -- even though she does know, I think, that he loves her, and he tries to show it to her in many ways that don't actually require him to be intimate. So being patient with her messiness and caring for the baby is not sufficient, if he can't actually acknowledge to her how much he loves her. At least for Louisa -- and I'm not sure it would be for me, either.
It was set in Torquay, in Devon, but wasn't filmed there. It was filmed mostly in London studios and outside shots were somewhere else entirely.
What you say is very true NewPark, and certainly makes it clearer for me. But, even if his helping with the baby wasn't sufficient for her LG should have denied her mother's accusation that he did nothing to help her. I don't even understand the point of that line.
Yes, that made me cringe. Perhaps it's little girl Louisa, wanting Mom's sympathy for being in a relationship that is in so many ways unsatisfactory for her, and also it's venting a little about her anger at Martin to someone she knows will sympathize. In other words, maybe what she's expressing is a bit of neediness and hostility at that moment, even though what it's overtly about is not accurate. If that makes any sense.
I will absolutely do that, Shop Girl. Making a list
I know that this maybe a bit of a superficial reading of S5, but I didn't see big character changes for either of them. I think they were just incredibly unprepared, unorganized, sleep-deprived first time parents. On top of that was the looming move to London to fulfill the contract and temporarily living in a home filled with someone else's "stuff". Plus, even though he would never show it, Martin had to be dealing with the grief of AJ's death - she was a very important part of his life.