He's actually played a deuce because he couldn't count the spots. Both he and you can't quite work out that whatever the vote might be on the EU, over three quarters of voters want a referendum.
Seriously though all Cameron's been played, his nervous backbenchers know it and so does he
I see far less nervousness in Cameron's back benchers than I do in Miliband's front benchers. And no, I'm not a Cameron fan, I see little between him and Miliband, other than one still wears short trousers...:D:D:D
I thought it might be his last card to make sure he get's given the opportunity to lead his party at the next elections, I think if he doesn't get this through then it's less likely the Tories will keep him
Cameron's on a win-win with this, whether or not it gets through. Meanwhile, Miliband holds just black aces and eights.
I mean he wanted to convince people he himself made that promise and it could play well. Now he has an unpopular Government and can't even offer the public a vote
He's offered one....Miliband is trying to deny him.
Absolutely, they are in a complete muddle and can't decide which way to go - or at least their leader can't.
They know which way to go, they are pro EU and don't want a referendum. The problem for them is that their position is out of step with a significant proportion of the electorate and could cost them votes.
This is the problem with politics, politicians are more concerned with winning votes than they are with developing long term sensible economic strategy.
They know which way to go, they are pro EU and don't want a referendum. The problem for them is that their position is out of step with a significant proportion of the electorate and could cost them votes.
This is the problem with politics, politicians are more concerned with winning votes than they are with developing long term sensible economic strategy.
No they don't. There's a reason Labour for a Referendum was launched. They are split.
I do agree that the leadership is all for the EU though.
If they block it later it will not cause trouble for Cameron. He would like nothing more than to be able to go to the electorate and say I tried to give you a referendum, but labour and the lib dems blocked it because they don't trust you. They think you're too stupid to know what is best for yourselves.
This is arguably (party politically speaking) the better outcome for Cameron, so what are Labour thinking?
The Tories have no integrity, that's the point, Labour know to them EU is not a vote decider
The Tories have no integrity. :eek:
It is Labour that is lacking in that particular department - nor is it the first time they have sacrificed principle on the altar of politics - for that is what this is.
If they believe so much in the EU then where is the courage of their convictions. They can't even stand up and vote against - they have to abdicate the responsibility of making that decision and abstain.
The simple answer is Labour is as split on the EU as the Tories, just better at hiding it - but when the vote comes those splits will be open for all to see - that is what they are afraid of, and at the same time they think that this will embarrass Cameron - but it is they who will look bad.
Ie when he says he'll give the public a referendum, no one believes him, Labour being honest and saying we don't want uncertainty but basically being against the idea shows at least you know where they stand.
If the eu means alot to people they'd vote UKIP but like people keep saying they may moan about it, but it's not a vote decider
He knows full well that the next election is likely lost, so what better way to bugger Labour up royally, than to put in place legislation committing the country to a referendum, bind Labour to it, and run away laughing as Labour are left to pick up the pieces after a no vote.
If Cameron gets his referendum but loses the next election Labour can just repeal the bill. You can't bind a future government.
Ie when he says he'll give the public a referendum, no one believes him, Labour being honest and saying we don't want uncertainty but basically being against the idea shows at least you know where they stand.
On the other hand people will see Cameron trying to give people what they want and Labour blocking it.
If the eu means alot to people they'd vote UKIP but like people keep saying they may moan about it, but it's not a vote decider
People in general do not vote on single issue(s) at a General Election - local and by-elections maybe - it is a chance to give the government a thumping and remind them they hold office at the wishes of the voters. Further for many it is not in or out, but the fact that so much power has been granted to the EU and they have not been asked if they are happy with this.
The Establishment angle has been for years that we are a representative democracy and we elect MPs as our representatives to make such decisions on our behalf - and if we don't like the decisions our MP makes, we replace them with someone else.
And if I have to be honest, I have a fair amount of sympathy with that position. Many of us do not have well-informed, in-depth views about all aspects of national governance from housing to education to healthcare to foreign affairs to energy policy. We have our own day jobs, and national politics isn't normally that day job. We might have half-baked opinions about them, knee-jerk reactions, gut-instincts and visceral views, but those are not, in fact, good rational grounds for decision-making. (Sure, a few of us might be well-informed on any given subject at any given time, but the well-informed are generally in the minority.)Governance by emotion wouldn't be a good way to run a business, a charity, a school or a hospital - and it's not a good way to run a city, a county or a country either. I don't scrutinise legislation for a living - they don't build Web applications for a living - and we're quits on that.
Representative democracy has the advantage that it provides some sort of filter against some of the more extreme mood-swings of the public. What's the old adage - act in haste, repent at leisure...?
In general terms I agree with you. My problem is that the part I have emboldened sounds too much like the majority of our MPs.
Do we know the intention of the Lib Dems when it comes to this Referendum Bill ?
If they're going to vote against and most of the tories are going to vote for...............then it appears that Labour hold the balance of power
By abstaining they ensure that the Bill goes through without being seen to be supporting the Government
And what about amendments ?
I'm sure tory backbenchers will put forward numerous amendments to either bring forward the referendum or to try and attempt to tie Cameron's hands even tighter.............if Labour abstains on the amendments that could seriously embarrass the Government if they lose the votes..............as seems much more likely than being defeated on the actual Bill
I've just read Labour's chief whip's notes on the referendum issue. Dismissing all the predictable party bollox at the start, he ends with this little gem..
It is quite wrong to commit and legislate now for an in-out referendum, which would create four years of uncertainty, putting at risk the national interest by damaging both jobs and the economy.
So wrong, in fact, that their chosen solution is to abstain.
Comments
That's all this is about.
The whole Europe thing was always just a passing fad.
No one really cares about staying or leaving. Except those deeply passionate about departing and they are now a small minority.
Frankly all this is a waste of time when there are more important things for them to work on. But as usual this is the Tory way of self distruct.
2014 may see UKIP storming ahead again. We'll have to wait and see how many more migrants appear on our doorstep.
I wonder if the EU will push that date for Romania and Bulgaria out again though.
Lol. You must spend your whole time fretting about the EU and those nasty migrants coming here to the land of milk and honey:D
I think the eastern European immigrants are great, I'm of that descent myself as my father came here after WW2.
If we could send the 2 million odd of useless Brits over there in return, that would be even better.
They know which way to go, they are pro EU and don't want a referendum. The problem for them is that their position is out of step with a significant proportion of the electorate and could cost them votes.
This is the problem with politics, politicians are more concerned with winning votes than they are with developing long term sensible economic strategy.
I do agree that the leadership is all for the EU though.
This is arguably (party politically speaking) the better outcome for Cameron, so what are Labour thinking?
The Tories have no integrity. :eek:
It is Labour that is lacking in that particular department - nor is it the first time they have sacrificed principle on the altar of politics - for that is what this is.
If they believe so much in the EU then where is the courage of their convictions. They can't even stand up and vote against - they have to abdicate the responsibility of making that decision and abstain.
The simple answer is Labour is as split on the EU as the Tories, just better at hiding it - but when the vote comes those splits will be open for all to see - that is what they are afraid of, and at the same time they think that this will embarrass Cameron - but it is they who will look bad.
The English are used to it, Scotties have been tasting English milk and honey for centuries.
Ie when he says he'll give the public a referendum, no one believes him, Labour being honest and saying we don't want uncertainty but basically being against the idea shows at least you know where they stand.
If the eu means alot to people they'd vote UKIP but like people keep saying they may moan about it, but it's not a vote decider
If Cameron gets his referendum but loses the next election Labour can just repeal the bill. You can't bind a future government.
On the other hand people will see Cameron trying to give people what they want and Labour blocking it.
People in general do not vote on single issue(s) at a General Election - local and by-elections maybe - it is a chance to give the government a thumping and remind them they hold office at the wishes of the voters. Further for many it is not in or out, but the fact that so much power has been granted to the EU and they have not been asked if they are happy with this.
In general terms I agree with you. My problem is that the part I have emboldened sounds too much like the majority of our MPs.
They are also polling horribly as a result. Which is why, I presume, Labour are keeping quite on the subject, so as not to affect the polls.
No Lib's are just polling badly it's nothing to do with the fact they want us to remain in the EU
Fixed it for you;):D
The LibDem votes are going directly to UKIP, so I say it does have something to do with the EU.
Eh?
The Lib-Dem votes haven't changed much since late 2010 when support for UKIP was a fraction of what it is now.
The Lib-Dem votes went to Labour a while back.
If they're going to vote against and most of the tories are going to vote for...............then it appears that Labour hold the balance of power
By abstaining they ensure that the Bill goes through without being seen to be supporting the Government
And what about amendments ?
I'm sure tory backbenchers will put forward numerous amendments to either bring forward the referendum or to try and attempt to tie Cameron's hands even tighter.............if Labour abstains on the amendments that could seriously embarrass the Government if they lose the votes..............as seems much more likely than being defeated on the actual Bill
So wrong, in fact, that their chosen solution is to abstain.
This is simply a bit of Tory infighting...let 'em get on with it.