After a long and tortuous road stretching back far beyond when the Omnirumour was but a twinkling in a troll's eye, I have come to the conclusion that I don't believe it unless it is announced directly by the BBC.
Scot gave a great insight of the missing episodes. He and Puqui are the only 2 fans I believe.
As a matter of interest, what makes you believe them? Have they given any evidence of these finds. I have been on GB and other such forums but find that people just seem to say things as fact and people seem to believe them.
I would love these rumours to be true but also love the way in which the DS forums tend to stick more to facts and possibilities when discussing the rumour and not just pure gossip which seems to be treated as fact.
Scot gave a great insight of the missing episodes. He and Puqui are the only 2 fans I believe.
Well, it seems there was some truth amongst their mostly incorrect rumours, last October. However, wasn't Marco Polo supposed to have been 100% - no, make that 110% - absolutely, positively, totally and utterly confirmed by "sources" to have been restored and ready to release alongside Web and Enemy?
As a matter of interest, what makes you believe them? Have they given any evidence of these finds. I have been on GB and other such forums but find that people just seem to say things as fact and people seem to believe them.
I would love these rumours to be true but also love the way in which the DS forums tend to stick more to facts and possibilities when discussing the rumour and not just pure gossip which seems to be treated as fact.
Those people are playing the old scattergun game - *some* of the numerous claims they make are bound to be true. Their rumours about *which* episodes are back seem to include all of them, and their dates for big announcements are vague and constantly readjusted.
Who says anybody working for Phil Morris is a "Doctor Who" fan? And even if they are, why would they spend all their time telling stuff that might well affect their jobs to obscure American (I think) fans?
As well as the deliberate mischief-makers pretending they "know things", the rest of it just a mass of rumours going round and round Chinese-whispers style and people trying to make sense of the "noise". These people's claims are no more reliable than ghost hunters who hear Electronic Voice Phenomena from what is just background noise and tape mush.
As well as the deliberate mischief-makers pretending they "know things", the rest of it just a mass of rumours going round and round Chinese-whispers style and people trying to make sense of the "noise". These people's claims are no more reliable than ghost hunters who hear Electronic Voice Phenomena from what is just background noise and tape mush.
I like this analogy. Very nicely put.
And without any proof, then any rumour must surely be just that, a rumour. To quote the Bard, from 400+ years ago, 'a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.'
The rest is noise.
As a matter of interest, what makes you believe them? Have they given any evidence of these finds. I have been on GB and other such forums but find that people just seem to say things as fact and people seem to believe them.
Given that there were 106 episodes missing and many months before the announcement both of them (plus Outpost Skaro) stated that Web, Enemy and Marco were found (17 episodes missing), they were spot on for 9 of the 17 episodes. That's remarkable accurate given the number of episodes missing and suggests it wasn't a guess.
When you are that close it's either an amazingly lucky guess or they actually do have sources. The latter is far more likely. So given that they probably do have sources then their information is given far more weight that a regular rumour.
Given that there were 106 episodes missing and many months before the announcement both of them (plus Outpost Skaro) stated that Web, Enemy and Marco were found (17 episodes missing), they were spot on for 9 of the 17 episodes. That's remarkable accurate given the number of episodes missing and suggests it wasn't a guess.
When you are that close it's either an amazingly lucky guess or they actually do have sources. The latter is far more likely. So given that they probably do have sources then their information is given far more weight that a regular rumour.
Those three stories were rumoured long before Scot and Puqui heard from their sources. Most notably by a renowned hoaxer @HunterSRelics in June 2013.
Part of large former African dictator's secret treasure trove of 60's and 70's TV
BBC in negotiations to return Idi Amin's former cache of Doctor Who episodes to the UK.
Negotiations described as delicate and protracted. Return by no means guaranteed.
Following stories already returned to the BBC - Marco Polo, The Enemy of the World, The Web of Fear.
Given that there were 106 episodes missing and many months before the announcement both of them (plus Outpost Skaro) stated that Web, Enemy and Marco were found (17 episodes missing), they were spot on for 9 of the 17 episodes. That's remarkable accurate given the number of episodes missing and suggests it wasn't a guess.
When you are that close it's either an amazingly lucky guess or they actually do have sources. The latter is far more likely. So given that they probably do have sources then their information is given far more weight that a regular rumour.
That was after those episodes were back at the BBC and in the restoration/release flow. Rumours coming out of the tens of people at the BBC (etc.) who have to know about a commercial release (restoration, contracts, copyright, distribution chain, marketing etc.) is a whole different ballgame from rumours coming from Phil Morris' little company. Having a genuine source in one of these two camps is completely unrelated to having a source in the other.
is a whole different ballgame from rumours coming from Phil Morris' little company.
You are right, it's unlikely that the rumours are coming from TIEA but does anyone really think that Phil has all this material and hasn't discussed it with the BBC? I thought he had written authorisation from the BBC that gave him access to many of the TV stations? So I'm pretty sure some part of the BBC will be fully in the loop on this (despite the denials).
There's obviously a reason why this large batch of missing materials hasn't been formally announced and there's definitely more to the story than we know. The problem is that when a rumour bubbles for as long as this one has it gets polluted with all kinds of wishful thinking and paranoia. One person hears something, repeats it and it becomes a fact. That reduces the credibility of all rumours and suddenly everything is less certain.
Remove the fluff, remove the "Power of the Daleks" screening, remove the Tenth Planet 4 found in the BFI archive rumour (that rumour appeared in the last few days) and you are left with the original Marco, Web and Enemy rumour and I still believe that rumour is true, it's just hasn't completed yet.
Remove the fluff, remove the "Power of the Daleks" screening, remove the Tenth Planet 4 found in the BFI archive rumour (that rumour appeared in the last few days) and you are left with the original Marco, Web and Enemy rumour and I still believe that rumour is true, it's just hasn't completed yet.
Yes, I've certainly got time for the "Marco Polo" thing. A guess might be that it was slated for return at the same time as "Web" and "Enemy" but didn't end up happening. That's why Steve Roberts seems much more certain about that one.
Also, from Roberts' comments at that recent convention (transcript is on GB), it seems like Phil M is a bit of a precious sort (the "Enemy" and "Web" returns were on/off/on/off) and it's been repeatedly stated that he does things in his own way and time. Therefore, it seems entirely reasonably that he isn't going to start releasing stuff till he considers his job done. Nobody like handing over half-finished work, do they?
But all this crap like "Master Plan" 8 is complete but missing 20 seconds (or whatever it was) is just horse shit.
So, "Marco Polo", yeah, maybe? Others, yes maybe - BUT WE DON'T KNOW YET - nobody outside the Phil camp does. When/if anything else hits the BBC, *then* the reliable rumours will start due to the amount of people in the know.
Given that there were 106 episodes missing and many months before the announcement both of them (plus Outpost Skaro) stated that Web, Enemy and Marco were found (17 episodes missing), they were spot on for 9 of the 17 episodes. That's remarkable accurate given the number of episodes missing and suggests it wasn't a guess.
When you are that close it's either an amazingly lucky guess or they actually do have sources. The latter is far more likely. So given that they probably do have sources then their information is given far more weight that a regular rumour.
Pretty much this.
Marco Polo isn't something new, it's part of the original report which said Web/Enemy/Marco. It was then pushed back to second wave with other M's.
Also don't forget The Mirror broke the news it was found late last year. Granted the report was obviously a splice of two rumours, but they got Web/Enemy reported long before anyone else. It's highly likely that the source for them getting Web/Enemy was the same as the one who gave them Marco Polo / Dalek Master Plan, just the journo in question mixed the two up and gave DMP recovery details with the Marco Polo title.
The ultimate punchline would be if everything except Marco Polo had been found.
It's already fairly ironic as no footage of it exists yet it was widely sold and widely copied. Disney were even planning a movie based on it before the Dalek ones were even discussed so they must have had something to show studio executives.
Anyway Marco Polo is like buses, one copy will turn up then a few more shortly after!
So, "Marco Polo", yeah, maybe? Others, yes maybe - BUT WE DON'T KNOW YET - nobody outside the Phil camp does. When/if anything else hits the BBC, *then* the reliable rumours will start due to the amount of people in the know.
It's inconceivable that the BBC are out of the loop. When interviewed Phil said this:
"It's my job to put a smile on Doctor Who fans’ faces, in complete co-operation with BBC Worldwide"
This isn't one guy going out to places on a whim, it's an organised effort and BBC Worldwide are most definitely involved (as are others). If Phil has found stuff, BBCW almost certainly know about it. If it's a massive find, as we believe it is, then BBCW may not know the full list of material as it may not be be fully catalogued yet. That's why information has leaked out, it's not as small a circle as we are lead to believe (imo of course )
It's inconceivable that the BBC are out of the loop. When interviewed Phil said this:
"It's my job to put a smile on Doctor Who fans’ faces, in complete co-operation with BBC Worldwide"
This isn't one guy going out to places on a whim, it's an organised effort and BBC Worldwide are most definitely involved (as are others). If Phil has found stuff, BBCW almost certainly know about it. If it's a massive find, as we believe it is, then BBCW may not know the full list of material as it may not be be fully catalogued yet. That's why information has leaked out, it's not as small a circle as we are lead to believe (imo of course )
Sorry, but I disagree with all of that!
And (second point) if genuine information was leaking about what Phil M has found, it would crystallise around the same episodes time after time. It doesn't - it's all over the place. People are seeing faces (or rather missing episodes) in random patterns of dots - pareidolia.
That's fine, feel free to disagree, we aren't exactly working in the realms of hard facts here My opinion and your's are just guesswork, we know as much as the next fan One thing that's not debatable though is the Phil is working with BBCW, he said so himself.
In regard to information leaking from BBCW. Again, forget the fluff. The core has always been Marco and, outside of the already returned episodes, The Massacre is the one other story that's been mentioned time and again. The rest of the rumours seem to be add-ons from other people, they are more likely to be incorrect imo.
Though time is the only thing that will prove them right or wrong.
That's fine, feel free to disagree, we aren't exactly working in the realms of hard facts here My opinion and your's are just guesswork, we know as much as the next fan One thing that's not debatable though is the Phil is working with BBCW, he said so himself.
That might just mean the letter of authenticity he approached the TV stations/companies with. It's broader than just a BBC/Phil thing, as he is also finding ITV stuff.
And BBC Worldwide can't accuse him of withholding episodes if he hasn't declared to them that he's actually got any others! I imagine they'll simply leave him alone till he's ready. From what's been said, I really don't think he is giving them weekly reports.
From what's been said, I really don't think he is giving them weekly reports.
I gather he's occasionally completely incommunicado for weeks at a time...
I also suspect that if the 'thousands of film cans' thing is true (and when people like Steve Roberts and Dick Fiddy say things like that, I'm inclined to believe them), there might be a massive logistical problem. I mean, bods at the BBC and BFI are certainly going to be delighted and astonished, but they're also going to be saying 'how on earth are we going to deal with all that?' at some point, too.
Face it, this is BIG.
Still, hope for the best but expect the worst. We know nothing for certain other than this is going to take ages...
Only a dozen years ago, who'd have imagined we would be discussing not only a potential huge haul of recovered episodes but also the ongoing shooting of new episodes with the Twelfth Doctor?...
Only a dozen years ago, who'd have imagined we would be discussing not only a potential huge haul of recovered episodes but also the ongoing shooting of new episodes with the Twelfth Doctor?...
Heh heh - talking about the potential return of a single episode, never mind entire stories, would have been regarded as the deranged rantings of the most desperate madman less than a year ago, but here we are discussing the possibility of the longest entirely missing story turning up because it's a thing that might actually happen.
Those three stories were rumoured long before Scot and Puqui heard from their sources. Most notably by a renowned hoaxer @HunterSRelics in June 2013.
Be More Pacific still refuses to give credit where due - Hunter S Relic was a spoof account following off the back of various spoilers - including my own.
Most notably?.
Pre-empted Bleeding Cool by blowing the trio (and first to post regards Marco issues) if you follow the trail back we were discussing Web long, long long ago on GB.
Also slated here for spoils regards Moff/Smith disagreements and confirmation Smith was leaving also issues surrounding a certain execs departure.
Now retired from the spoiler game as fed up to back teeth of the vitriol.
From Chris TV - bless him. "You seem very confident in that fact. I have a feeling you will be disappointed come November"
After a long and tortuous road stretching back far beyond when the Omnirumour was but a twinkling in a troll's eye, I have come to the conclusion that I don't believe it unless it is announced directly by the BBC.
Me too - but if you wait for the BBC to confirm you've missed the bus.
That might just mean the letter of authenticity he approached the TV stations/companies with. It's broader than just a BBC/Phil thing, as he is also finding ITV stuff.
And BBC Worldwide can't accuse him of withholding episodes if he hasn't declared to them that he's actually got any others! I imagine they'll simply leave him alone till he's ready. From what's been said, I really don't think he is giving them weekly reports.
"complete co-operation"... it's the key term. BBCW wouldn't just give him a note and ask him to check in once in a while when he feels like it, what business acts like that? I think we (the fans) are seeing massive conspiracies and over complicating things. Sorry but for me the chances of Phil sitting on a large pile of films like some crazy Doctor Who-esque mad scientist is zero. I believe he has a lot of missing episodes, I believe he's actively working with Worldwide and the size of the haul is the reason for the delay.
I will stress that this is my belief. Hard facts = Zero
Comments
As a matter of interest, what makes you believe them? Have they given any evidence of these finds. I have been on GB and other such forums but find that people just seem to say things as fact and people seem to believe them.
I would love these rumours to be true but also love the way in which the DS forums tend to stick more to facts and possibilities when discussing the rumour and not just pure gossip which seems to be treated as fact.
Those people are playing the old scattergun game - *some* of the numerous claims they make are bound to be true. Their rumours about *which* episodes are back seem to include all of them, and their dates for big announcements are vague and constantly readjusted.
Who says anybody working for Phil Morris is a "Doctor Who" fan? And even if they are, why would they spend all their time telling stuff that might well affect their jobs to obscure American (I think) fans?
As well as the deliberate mischief-makers pretending they "know things", the rest of it just a mass of rumours going round and round Chinese-whispers style and people trying to make sense of the "noise". These people's claims are no more reliable than ghost hunters who hear Electronic Voice Phenomena from what is just background noise and tape mush.
I like this analogy. Very nicely put.
And without any proof, then any rumour must surely be just that, a rumour. To quote the Bard, from 400+ years ago, 'a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.'
The rest is noise.
Given that there were 106 episodes missing and many months before the announcement both of them (plus Outpost Skaro) stated that Web, Enemy and Marco were found (17 episodes missing), they were spot on for 9 of the 17 episodes. That's remarkable accurate given the number of episodes missing and suggests it wasn't a guess.
When you are that close it's either an amazingly lucky guess or they actually do have sources. The latter is far more likely. So given that they probably do have sources then their information is given far more weight that a regular rumour.
That was after those episodes were back at the BBC and in the restoration/release flow. Rumours coming out of the tens of people at the BBC (etc.) who have to know about a commercial release (restoration, contracts, copyright, distribution chain, marketing etc.) is a whole different ballgame from rumours coming from Phil Morris' little company. Having a genuine source in one of these two camps is completely unrelated to having a source in the other.
You are right, it's unlikely that the rumours are coming from TIEA but does anyone really think that Phil has all this material and hasn't discussed it with the BBC? I thought he had written authorisation from the BBC that gave him access to many of the TV stations? So I'm pretty sure some part of the BBC will be fully in the loop on this (despite the denials).
There's obviously a reason why this large batch of missing materials hasn't been formally announced and there's definitely more to the story than we know. The problem is that when a rumour bubbles for as long as this one has it gets polluted with all kinds of wishful thinking and paranoia. One person hears something, repeats it and it becomes a fact. That reduces the credibility of all rumours and suddenly everything is less certain.
Remove the fluff, remove the "Power of the Daleks" screening, remove the Tenth Planet 4 found in the BFI archive rumour (that rumour appeared in the last few days) and you are left with the original Marco, Web and Enemy rumour and I still believe that rumour is true, it's just hasn't completed yet.
Yes, I've certainly got time for the "Marco Polo" thing. A guess might be that it was slated for return at the same time as "Web" and "Enemy" but didn't end up happening. That's why Steve Roberts seems much more certain about that one.
Also, from Roberts' comments at that recent convention (transcript is on GB), it seems like Phil M is a bit of a precious sort (the "Enemy" and "Web" returns were on/off/on/off) and it's been repeatedly stated that he does things in his own way and time. Therefore, it seems entirely reasonably that he isn't going to start releasing stuff till he considers his job done. Nobody like handing over half-finished work, do they?
But all this crap like "Master Plan" 8 is complete but missing 20 seconds (or whatever it was) is just horse shit.
So, "Marco Polo", yeah, maybe? Others, yes maybe - BUT WE DON'T KNOW YET - nobody outside the Phil camp does. When/if anything else hits the BBC, *then* the reliable rumours will start due to the amount of people in the know.
Pretty much this.
Marco Polo isn't something new, it's part of the original report which said Web/Enemy/Marco. It was then pushed back to second wave with other M's.
Also don't forget The Mirror broke the news it was found late last year. Granted the report was obviously a splice of two rumours, but they got Web/Enemy reported long before anyone else. It's highly likely that the source for them getting Web/Enemy was the same as the one who gave them Marco Polo / Dalek Master Plan, just the journo in question mixed the two up and gave DMP recovery details with the Marco Polo title.
All in all I believe Marco Polo has been found.
It's already fairly ironic as no footage of it exists yet it was widely sold and widely copied. Disney were even planning a movie based on it before the Dalek ones were even discussed so they must have had something to show studio executives.
Anyway Marco Polo is like buses, one copy will turn up then a few more shortly after!
It's inconceivable that the BBC are out of the loop. When interviewed Phil said this:
"It's my job to put a smile on Doctor Who fans’ faces, in complete co-operation with BBC Worldwide"
This isn't one guy going out to places on a whim, it's an organised effort and BBC Worldwide are most definitely involved (as are others). If Phil has found stuff, BBCW almost certainly know about it. If it's a massive find, as we believe it is, then BBCW may not know the full list of material as it may not be be fully catalogued yet. That's why information has leaked out, it's not as small a circle as we are lead to believe (imo of course
Sorry, but I disagree with all of that!
And (second point) if genuine information was leaking about what Phil M has found, it would crystallise around the same episodes time after time. It doesn't - it's all over the place. People are seeing faces (or rather missing episodes) in random patterns of dots - pareidolia.
That's fine, feel free to disagree, we aren't exactly working in the realms of hard facts here
In regard to information leaking from BBCW. Again, forget the fluff. The core has always been Marco and, outside of the already returned episodes, The Massacre is the one other story that's been mentioned time and again. The rest of the rumours seem to be add-ons from other people, they are more likely to be incorrect imo.
Though time is the only thing that will prove them right or wrong.
That might just mean the letter of authenticity he approached the TV stations/companies with. It's broader than just a BBC/Phil thing, as he is also finding ITV stuff.
And BBC Worldwide can't accuse him of withholding episodes if he hasn't declared to them that he's actually got any others! I imagine they'll simply leave him alone till he's ready. From what's been said, I really don't think he is giving them weekly reports.
I gather he's occasionally completely incommunicado for weeks at a time...
I also suspect that if the 'thousands of film cans' thing is true (and when people like Steve Roberts and Dick Fiddy say things like that, I'm inclined to believe them), there might be a massive logistical problem. I mean, bods at the BBC and BFI are certainly going to be delighted and astonished, but they're also going to be saying 'how on earth are we going to deal with all that?' at some point, too.
Face it, this is BIG.
Still, hope for the best but expect the worst. We know nothing for certain other than this is going to take ages...
Heh heh - talking about the potential return of a single episode, never mind entire stories, would have been regarded as the deranged rantings of the most desperate madman less than a year ago, but here we are discussing the possibility of the longest entirely missing story turning up because it's a thing that might actually happen.
How did that happen? The world's gone mad...
Be More Pacific still refuses to give credit where due - Hunter S Relic was a spoof account following off the back of various spoilers - including my own.
Most notably?.
Pre-empted Bleeding Cool by blowing the trio (and first to post regards Marco issues) if you follow the trail back we were discussing Web long, long long ago on GB.
Also slated here for spoils regards Moff/Smith disagreements and confirmation Smith was leaving also issues surrounding a certain execs departure.
Now retired from the spoiler game as fed up to back teeth of the vitriol.
From Chris TV - bless him. "You seem very confident in that fact. I have a feeling you will be disappointed come November"
Truth will tell, it was does.
It did too.
Charming. Posting long before others jumped on the bandwagon.
This began long ago.
Me too - but if you wait for the BBC to confirm you've missed the bus.
"complete co-operation"... it's the key term. BBCW wouldn't just give him a note and ask him to check in once in a while when he feels like it, what business acts like that? I think we (the fans) are seeing massive conspiracies and over complicating things. Sorry but for me the chances of Phil sitting on a large pile of films like some crazy Doctor Who-esque mad scientist is zero. I believe he has a lot of missing episodes, I believe he's actively working with Worldwide and the size of the haul is the reason for the delay.
I will stress that this is my belief. Hard facts = Zero