If 'god' exists why is there a need to 'believe' or 'have faith'?
Wouldn't it be blindingly obvious? (cue convoluted explanations of why 'god' arranged it to be this way)
Quite and I was referring to how you had interpreted it. That did not make sense.
NB in this context the difference between create and cause does not seem relevant. The entity is the agent bringing it about in either case.
Well that's how you interpret evil/havoc/woe etc, etc. To those on the receiving end of his judgement will view it as whatever as do many on here; I and many others view it as justice.
Would you have said that Britain in the 50s was an evil regime because they carried out the death sentence?
Well that's how you interpret evil/havoc/woe etc, etc. To those on the receiving end of his judgement will view it as whatever as do many on here; I and many others view it as justice.
Would you have said that Britain in the 50s was an evil regime because they carried out the death sentence?
I think you should read Isiah 45 for context. It is not about administering justice for crimes it is in the context of destroying enemies and enslaving populations.
I form the light,
and create darkness.
I make peace,
and create calamity.
I am Yahweh,
who does all these things
I form light and create darkness;
I make what is good, happy, and healthy, and I create woe.
I, the Eternal One, make them one and all..
I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe;
I the Lord do all these things.
7 I create the light and make the darkness.
I send good times and bad times.
I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.
this highlights the uncertainty and even contradiction.
how can anyone take this seriously if theres not 1 clear and concise message? its (supposed to be ) the most vitally important document on which billions of lives (supposed to) depend. if god can get the right mixture of gases in the atmosphere to support life, if god can create a diverse landscape that harbours a variety of plants we need, if he can position the earth within the 'goldilocks zone' and spin it to give us just the right amount of day/night and tilt us just right for the seasons... if he can position the moon to act as a heartbeat so the gravitational pull on the oceans provide the energy for ocean currents and therefore our weather..... why the heck can he get the bloody bible as clear and exact?
the obvious, most logical, the most reasonable answer is of course that the god of christianity does not exist.
I think you should read Isiah 45 for context. It is not about administering justice for crimes it is in the context of destroying enemies and enslaving populations.
The Scripture in Isaiah is a prophecy relating to Cyrus the great the king of Persia , who God was going to use to free his people from Babylon. In 45: 7 , he is giving his credentials and how he was going to use cyrus ( even though it was some 200 years before cyrus was born) to free the israelites.
this highlights the uncertainty and even contradiction.
how can anyone take this seriously if theres not 1 clear and concise message? its (supposed to be ) the most vitally important document on which billions of lives (supposed to) depend. if god can get the right mixture of gases in the atmosphere to support life, if god can create a diverse landscape that harbours a variety of plants we need, if he can position the earth within the 'goldilocks zone' and spin it to give us just the right amount of day/night and tilt us just right for the seasons... if he can position the moon to act as a heartbeat so the gravitational pull on the oceans provide the energy for ocean currents and therefore our weather..... why the heck can he get the bloody bible as clear and exact?
the obvious, most logical, the most reasonable answer is of course that the god of christianity does not exist.
"7 I create the light and make the darkness.
I send good times and bad times.
I, the Lord, am the one who does these things. "
If 'god' exists why is there a need to 'believe' or 'have faith'?
Wouldn't it be blindingly obvious? (cue convoluted explanations of why 'god' arranged it to be this way)
You have to believe that Jesus died for your sins.
The Scripture in Isaiah is a prophecy relating to Cyrus the great the king of Persia , who God was going to use to free his people from Babylon. In 45: 7 , he is giving his credentials and how he was going to use cyrus ( even though it was some 200 years before cyrus was born) to free the israelites.
Right that was an enslavement that Isiah 46 says God claims to have organised himself.
Indeed if this was a prophecy by 200 years it was made before the Babylonians had even started taking Jews captive. So we have this God sanctioning a punishment for something that has not been yet done and that he himself was planning to bring about? And that makes sense to you?.
I will stick with the view that this God as described is very far from perfect.
BTW My Bible has God giving Cyrus his blessing for conquering Nations not just Babylon which is not actually mentioned in Isiah 45. He did of course conquer vast areas of Asia and the Middle East.
[E=Richard46;71593715]Right that was an enslavement that Isiah 46 says God claims to have organised himself.
Indeed if this was a prophecy by 200 years it was made before the Babylonians had even started taking Jews captive. So we have this God sanctioning a punishment for something that has not been yet done and that he himself was planning to bring about? And that makes sense to you?.
I will stick with the view that this God as described is very far from perfect.
BTW My Bible has God giving Cyrus his blessing for conquering Nations not just Babylon which is not actually mentioned in Isiah 45. He did of course conquer vast areas of Asia and the Middle East.[/QUOTE]
Nothing wrong with BIB.
The scriptures from deuteronomy says What would happen if they were disobedient.
62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the Lord thy God.
63 And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
64 And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the Lord shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:
66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:
67 In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.
68 And the Lord shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.
If 'god' exists why is there a need to 'believe' or 'have faith'?
Wouldn't it be blindingly obvious? (cue convoluted explanations of why 'god' arranged it to be this way)
"7 I create the light and make the darkness.
I send good times and bad times.
I, the Lord, am the one who does these things. "
It seems reasonably clear and concise to me.
i was referring to the several interpretations imrightok posted, but apart from that, thats just one example of the uncettainty and nebulous nature of the bible.
the bible has not the same author as creation as i highlighted.
You have to believe that Jesus died for your sins.
Can you state exactly why he would have to be nailed or tied to a couple of pieces of wood and die in agony in the heat? How would that atone for whatever sins all the people who came along afterwards would do be it mass murder or stealing bubblegum from the shop?
If to tell us we HAVE to believe in something, then you should have the decency to explain why
Unless you are are Sister Mary Charles, that mad Scottish nun I was shit scared of in school:o
Can you state exactly why he would have to be nailed or tied to a couple of pieces of wood and die in agony in the heat? How would that atone for whatever sins all the people who came along afterwards would do be it mass murder or stealing bubblegum from the shop?
If to tell us we HAVE to believe in something, then you should have the decency to explain why
Unless you are are Sister Mary Charles, that mad Scottish nun I was shit scared of in school:o
It is a good point, one I've always wondered. I don't understand the logic behind it either.
Jesus dies = sins forgiven.
I don't see the connection, why would God choose to forgive our sins only after killing his own son?
It's almost as if a cult leader of a group of fishermen in ancient Middle East died, and they turned him into a martyr.
I
It's almost as if a cult leader of a group of fishermen in ancient Middle East died, and they turned him into a martyr.
And even back then they would never have believed that so many people would still be following it 2000 years later and in parts of the world they never knew at the time existed
,,,
The scriptures from deuteronomy says What would happen if they were disobedient.
62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the Lord thy God.
63 And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
64 And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the Lord shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:
66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:
67 In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.
68 And the Lord shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.
Only the bully attempts to gain respect by threats. Do you seriously propose this sort of stuff as a reason to worship anything?
Shock!! Another Christian bashing thread...yawn...Atheists are always so angry especially at those with faith
I'm agnostic and I'm not angry I just find people who are blinded by faith quite sinister
My mum still goes to church my only family member who does, that;s her decision and she has a good social circle there, but even she avoids the ones there who are basically a bit fanatical
Comments
Wouldn't it be blindingly obvious? (cue convoluted explanations of why 'god' arranged it to be this way)
Well that's how you interpret evil/havoc/woe etc, etc. To those on the receiving end of his judgement will view it as whatever as do many on here; I and many others view it as justice.
Would you have said that Britain in the 50s was an evil regime because they carried out the death sentence?
I think you should read Isiah 45 for context. It is not about administering justice for crimes it is in the context of destroying enemies and enslaving populations.
this highlights the uncertainty and even contradiction.
how can anyone take this seriously if theres not 1 clear and concise message? its (supposed to be ) the most vitally important document on which billions of lives (supposed to) depend. if god can get the right mixture of gases in the atmosphere to support life, if god can create a diverse landscape that harbours a variety of plants we need, if he can position the earth within the 'goldilocks zone' and spin it to give us just the right amount of day/night and tilt us just right for the seasons... if he can position the moon to act as a heartbeat so the gravitational pull on the oceans provide the energy for ocean currents and therefore our weather..... why the heck can he get the bloody bible as clear and exact?
the obvious, most logical, the most reasonable answer is of course that the god of christianity does not exist.
The Scripture in Isaiah is a prophecy relating to Cyrus the great the king of Persia , who God was going to use to free his people from Babylon. In 45: 7 , he is giving his credentials and how he was going to use cyrus ( even though it was some 200 years before cyrus was born) to free the israelites.
"7 I create the light and make the darkness.
I send good times and bad times.
I, the Lord, am the one who does these things. "
It seems reasonably clear and concise to me.
You have to believe that Jesus died for your sins.
Right that was an enslavement that Isiah 46 says God claims to have organised himself.
Indeed if this was a prophecy by 200 years it was made before the Babylonians had even started taking Jews captive. So we have this God sanctioning a punishment for something that has not been yet done and that he himself was planning to bring about? And that makes sense to you?.
I will stick with the view that this God as described is very far from perfect.
BTW My Bible has God giving Cyrus his blessing for conquering Nations not just Babylon which is not actually mentioned in Isiah 45. He did of course conquer vast areas of Asia and the Middle East.
How is that statement related to my question?
If you carefully read your post again you will see that you asked why we needed to believe.
Indeed if this was a prophecy by 200 years it was made before the Babylonians had even started taking Jews captive. So we have this God sanctioning a punishment for something that has not been yet done and that he himself was planning to bring about? And that makes sense to you?.
I will stick with the view that this God as described is very far from perfect.
BTW My Bible has God giving Cyrus his blessing for conquering Nations not just Babylon which is not actually mentioned in Isiah 45. He did of course conquer vast areas of Asia and the Middle East.[/QUOTE]
Nothing wrong with BIB.
The scriptures from deuteronomy says What would happen if they were disobedient.
62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the Lord thy God.
63 And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
64 And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the Lord shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:
66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:
67 In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.
68 And the Lord shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.
Don't believers think it is blindingly obvious?
So you can listen to someone else reading 'the word of God' that was written by someone else who wasn't God?
i was referring to the several interpretations imrightok posted, but apart from that, thats just one example of the uncettainty and nebulous nature of the bible.
the bible has not the same author as creation as i highlighted.
Exactly, and why did he create big horrible spiders that eat pretty little birds?
finding that out in my Catholic primary school was one of the first things to make me question the whole thing
Can you state exactly why he would have to be nailed or tied to a couple of pieces of wood and die in agony in the heat? How would that atone for whatever sins all the people who came along afterwards would do be it mass murder or stealing bubblegum from the shop?
If to tell us we HAVE to believe in something, then you should have the decency to explain why
Unless you are are Sister Mary Charles, that mad Scottish nun I was shit scared of in school:o
It is a good point, one I've always wondered. I don't understand the logic behind it either.
Jesus dies = sins forgiven.
I don't see the connection, why would God choose to forgive our sins only after killing his own son?
It's almost as if a cult leader of a group of fishermen in ancient Middle East died, and they turned him into a martyr.
Do you get annoyed at cults with wild unrealistic beliefs that perform rituals and cause harm and suffering in the world?
The defence rests....
And even back then they would never have believed that so many people would still be following it 2000 years later and in parts of the world they never knew at the time existed
Only the bully attempts to gain respect by threats. Do you seriously propose this sort of stuff as a reason to worship anything?
I'm agnostic and I'm not angry I just find people who are blinded by faith quite sinister
My mum still goes to church my only family member who does, that;s her decision and she has a good social circle there, but even she avoids the ones there who are basically a bit fanatical
Unless it is some quote from the bible what is your defence?
Again I am not being angry