That's what I think. I remember the blood spatter expert saying there were arterial spurts on the wall of the stair way? But it didn't seem to go anywhere.
The defense must bring in their own, that can't be it surely? As that is huge evidence that Reeva was alive a few minutes before.
The defense has tried to 'collapse' the time a bit, but that wasn't convincing, there is still just too much time for Reeva to have remained alive long enough for that to happen.
I was anticipating a blood spatter defense expert to say something like - 'if the body is moved, jiggled etc. then the blood might spray.
But if they do I still think Nel would tear them apart. But perhaps that's what Nel is waiting for - the chance to say that that is extremely unlikely.
OP even damned himself here, as either acting that she was still alive, or actually THINKING she was when he carried her down the stairs.
Sorry, rambling...
I agree - it's such massive evidence, that I'd be amazed if Nel missed that. Can only assume that it formed part of Saayman's autopsy report and Nel is going to refer to that in closing argument.
If Roux didn't specifically mention it to Botha, then is Nel allowed to bring it up himself? Dunno. Hopeless Case will know, though.
Maybe not, but the egotistical OP might have found out about the on-screen kiss Reeva had with the bloke for the reality TV and gone bonkers, because OP should be number one.
Especially if that man was black.
It looked to me as if most of the men on that show were
It is well documented that Reeva was not racist.
I am not saying that OP was as I have no evidence to make such a claim.
I am hypothesising.
I agree, its not about his love for her but about whether in some way he has been slighted
And it seems he took offence and became very angry very quickly over very little.
He admitted he was not always nice to her.
This relationship was in trouble in January. I think Reeva was in the process of telling him what an arse he was and spelling it out to him and it cost her her life.
I agree, its not about his love for her but about whether in some way he has been slighted
Yes, some people only see the world & others in terms of how do they/does this affect me. They are incapable of putting anyone else's feelings before their own, including fear & pain.
I have an issue with this though. In order to kill someone in a rage, for it to be a crime of passion, you have to have very strong feelings about them, whether it's hate or love or whatever. I just don't get the impression that Pistorius felt much for Steenkamp at all other than liking her and finding her attractive.
Yes but you are viewing it from a reasonable, empathetic state of mind.
Yes, some people only see the world & others in terms of how do they/does this affect me. They are incapable of putting anyone else's feelings before their own, including fear & pain.
I have an issue with this though. In order to kill someone in a rage, for it to be a crime of passion, you have to have very strong feelings about them, whether it's hate or love or whatever. I just don't get the impression that Pistorius felt much for Steenkamp at all other than liking her and finding her attractive.
We know from their text messages that he was already upset about something that happened that morning...a meeting he had. For all we know it as playing on his mind, he may even had downed a few drinks and become more wound up/irrational. Reeva tries to calm him down but gives up and wants to leave, which he could have taken as an insult.....
I agree - it's such massive evidence, that I'd be amazed if Nel missed that. Can only assume that it formed part of Saayman's autopsy report and Nel is going to refer to that in closing argument.
If Roux didn't specifically mention it to Botha, then is Nel allowed to bring it up himself? Dunno. Hopeless Case will know, though.
In regard to bits of evidence potentially missed I still find it strange that OP said he knelt down when he was supposed to be on his stumps en route to the bathroom, it immediately suggested to me that as previously suspected he was not on his stumps at all. It may be physically possible to kneel on his stumps but I still think it suggested otherwise.
We know from their text messages that he was already upset about something that happened that morning...a meeting he had. For all we know it as playing on his mind, he may even had downed a few drinks and become more wound up/irrational. Reeva tries to calm him down but gives up and wants to leave, which he could have taken as an insult.....
Yes. And Nel (or Roux) brought this up in court. It was a meeting with a financial advisor, IIRC. I'm surprised the nature of the meeting and its outcome wasn't pursued in court.
A very good point. If he couldn't give a stuff, why didn't he just kick her out instead of shooting her?
Because his reputation is everything .. we know that Reeva had already been subjected to some cr*appy behaviour from him and who knows what went on that night. He wouldn't want it getting out. Jealousy as we all know is a killer and we know he was jealous. I'm pretty sure it had something to do with her phone ... I don't think she had it in the loo .. I think he did but he couldn't access it. Her locking herself away from him is enough I think to anger him beyond reason (once he's already in a temper) .. he hates not being in control. I think he took her phone from her and then later said he'd tried to make an emergency call with it as his prints would be all over it. He got unreasonably angry about a policeman touching his gun and fired a shot in anger ... in a real temper who knows what he'd do? ... well .. we do know actually.
I have an issue with this though. In order to kill someone in a rage, for it to be a crime of passion, you have to have very strong feelings about them, whether it's hate or love or whatever. I just don't get the impression that Pistorius felt much for Steenkamp at all other than liking her and finding her attractive.
Like most domestic murders the trigger is not the victim but the problem with the murderer that is being highlighted by the victim. A weakness in your own character is never so hard to bear as when it is highlighted by another. This does not take a long established relationship.
I was thinking last night - everyone keeps saying that Nel hasn't produced a smoking gun yet.
I think he has.
The blood spatter expert (that Roux barely bothered to cross examine) said that his findings were consistent with OP's account.
Interesting.
OP's account was that he shot Reeva, pulled her out of the toilet, carried her downstairs and she died in his arms at the bottom of the stairs. Roux got the expert to confirm that the blood findings were consistent with what OP said.
But Roux hasn't really followed through on what the implications of this actually are.
Saayman and Botha both say Reeva took 2/3 breaths after she was shot....so the clock starts at that point as far as actual death is concerned.
If OP and the blood spatter expert are correct, Reeva's heart stopped at the bottom of the stairs.
If OP is correct, this is 20 minutes after she was shot around 3am.
If the State is correct, it is more like 6 minutes.
One of those is biologically possible, the other is not.
That's the smoking gun.
Sorry to keep harping on, but I think it's the single most important evidence so far.
Interesting…. what conclusion would you infer from this ?
- I know that cardiac arrest can take some time to occur after respiratory arrest (very common in drowning victims)…but certainly not 20 minutes !
- Professor Saayman based the 2-3 breaths on the amount of blood inside the lungs.
- DR Stipp said that RS's cornea was already milky upon his arrival at the house.
From OP's testimony :
- OP fired 4 shots at the door
- OP was scared to retreat because maybe someone was on the ladder
- OP stood in bathroom for a while and kept on shouting for RS to phone the police
- OP retreated backwards to the bedroom and kept on shouting for RS
- OP reached the corner of the bed whilst talking to RS but no one responded to him
- OP lifted himself onto the bed and felt RS was not on the right-hand side of the bed
- OP moved along the bed backwards whilst pointing his firearm at the passageway
- OP ran his hand in the curtains to make sure RS was not hiding behind them
- OP felt around and made his way back to the bathroom with his firearm
- OP tried to open the toilet door but it was locked
- OP ran to the bedroom
- OP opened the curtains and the balcony doors and shouted, “Help! Help! Help!”
- OP put his prosthetic legs ON
- OP ran as fast as he could to the bathroom
- OP ran into the toilet door but it didn’t move
- OP tried to kick the door but nothing happened
- OP ran to the bedroom and grabbed the cricket bat
- OP ran straight back to the toilet door
- OP believes he hit the door with cricket bat 3 times
- OP grabbed a big plank of the door panel with his hands and threw it out into the bathroom
- OP tried to open the toilet door from the inside but there was no key in the door
- OP took the keys, unlocked the door and flung it open … threw it open
- OP sat over RS and cried
- OP saw that RS was not breathing
- OP doesn’t for how long he stayed there with RS
- OP saw that RS had her iPhone with her in the toilet cubicle
- OP tried but could not use RS iPhone because it was passcode protected
- OP went to the bedroom where he picked up both his iPhones on the bedside table
- OP went back to the bathroom
- OP made and received calls : TOTAL 3m14s between start of 1st call and end of 5th call
- OP went to bedroom to unlock and open doors
- OP went downstair to unlock and open house doors
- OP went back upstairs to the bedroom
- OP tackled the bedroom door and unlock the other bedroom door
- OP went to the bathroom
- OP picked up RS
- OP carried RS out of the bathroom
- OP carried RS out of the bedroom
- OP carried RS downstairs
IF the 6 minute theory is correct : all the aforementioned actions without the phone use took OP 2 minutes and 46 seconds…which seems too short IMO
IF the 20 minute theory is correct : all the aforementioned actions without the phone use took OP 16 minutes and 46 seconds… which seems too long IMO
Is it possible that the blood trails found were not arterial spurting but blood dripping down from RS's hair and clothes ?
Like most domestic murders the trigger is not the victim but the problem with the murderer that is being highlighted by the victim. A weakness in your own character is never so hard to bear as when it is highlighted by another. This does not take a long established relationship.
To be honest, I'm not quite clear as to why the bruise couldn't have been caused by the left side of the magazine rack (as we look at it) rather than the right - is it possible she could've landed on the middle of the rack, fallen onto the left side and then onto the floor? I would have thought the bruise would be identical, given that each side of the rack is identical. Did the experts just assume it was the right side because they assumed it was always in the position it's shown to be in the photographs, or did they have another reason for thinking it was the left side? I didn't follow that part of the testimony too well.
I think the main issue, though, is that there seems to be no good reason why Pistorius would lie about it. So in that respect it seems like a fairly neutral point, whichever of the two are wrong (Pistorius or the experts).
imagine falling back and down really fast and with your bottom hitting that wooden rack with force, any part of it would have caused bruising - Oscar pulled her and lifted her up and out of that toilet, dragging I think he said before lifting, so that would have moved the rack, stands to reason.
the shot to Reeva's head would have meant she died instantly, and Oscar initially testified that Reeva was NOT breathing when he got to her - and couple of breaths after the shot to her head, Oscar would not have seen , as he was finding ways to break down that door and breaking in at the time - so his story is ridiculous when he changed it to SHE WAS BREATHING when he got to her.
Is it possible that the blood trails found were not arterial spurting but blood dripping down from RS's hair and clothes ?
blood spots seen in the bedroom , that were no where near the route Oscar would have taken to carry Reeva from the bathroom through the bedroom across landing and downstairs....... , show to me, that he went back to the bedroom either before he carried her downstairs or after he'd taken her downstairs.
He would have moved that magazine rack either when he pulled Reeva out of the toilet or afterwards and it would have fallen on its side, he put it out of the way maybe - that's why he's said it was moved, to try confuse the forensics and Prosecution - it has to be taken that he was lying. All the prosecution Expert witnesses and Dixon said she fell onto the mag rack.
It makes sense too that the mag rack was next to the toilet, where magazines are within reach to read while on the toilet - Why would they be on the other side of the toilet against the wall like OP said anycase ? it doesn't make sense.
Interesting…. what conclusion would you infer from this ?
- I know that cardiac arrest can take some time to occur after respiratory arrest (very common in drowning victims)…but certainly not 20 minutes !
- Professor Saayman based the 2-3 breaths on the amount of blood inside the lungs.
- DR Stipp said that RS's cornea was already milky upon his arrival at the house.
From OP's testimony :
- OP fired 4 shots at the door
- OP was scared to retreat because maybe someone was on the ladder
- OP stood in bathroom for a while and kept on shouting for RS to phone the police
- OP retreated backwards to the bedroom and kept on shouting for RS
- OP reached the corner of the bed whilst talking to RS but no one responded to him
- OP lifted himself onto the bed and felt RS was not on the right-hand side of the bed
- OP moved along the bed backwards whilst pointing his firearm at the passageway
- OP ran his hand in the curtains to make sure RS was not hiding behind them
- OP felt around and made his way back to the bathroom with his firearm
- OP tried to open the toilet door but it was locked
- OP ran to the bedroom
- OP opened the curtains and the balcony doors and shouted, “Help! Help! Help!”
- OP put his prosthetic legs ON
- OP ran as fast as he could to the bathroom
- OP ran into the toilet door but it didn’t move
- OP tried to kick the door but nothing happened
- OP ran to the bedroom and grabbed the cricket bat
- OP ran straight back to the toilet door
- OP believes he hit the door with cricket bat 3 times
- OP grabbed a big plank of the door panel with his hands and threw it out into the bathroom
- OP tried to open the toilet door from the inside but there was no key in the door
- OP took the keys, unlocked the door and flung it open … threw it open
- OP sat over RS and cried
- OP saw that RS was not breathing
- OP doesn’t for how long he stayed there with RS
- OP saw that RS had her iPhone with her in the toilet cubicle
- OP tried but could not use RS iPhone because it was passcode protected
- OP went to the bedroom where he picked up both his iPhones on the bedside table
- OP went back to the bathroom
- OP made and received calls : TOTAL 3m14s between start of 1st call and end of 5th call
- OP went to bedroom to unlock and open doors
- OP went downstair to unlock and open house doors
- OP went back upstairs to the bedroom
- OP tackled the bedroom door and unlock the other bedroom door
- OP went to the bathroom
- OP picked up RS
- OP carried RS out of the bathroom
- OP carried RS out of the bedroom
- OP carried RS downstairs
IF the 6 minute theory is correct : all the aforementioned actions without the phone use took OP 2 minutes and 46 seconds…which seems too short IMO
IF the 20 minute theory is correct : all the aforementioned actions without the phone use took OP 16 minutes and 46 seconds… which seems too long IMO
Is it possible that the blood trails found were not arterial spurting but blood dripping down from RS's hair and clothes ?
Really go to go after this....but.....my understanding is that they don't just decide what is arterial and what is drips by looking - they actually test the blood because they can see whether it's oxygenated and so forth. Roux didn't dispute anything that expert said, so I suspect that the defence have accepted that it's arterial.
They made distinctions between the different types of blood spatter on the staircase - some was drips, some from her hair, some from her shorts and some arterial.
I agree. It's perfectly possible, I just find it strange. He barely knew the woman.
Although they only met a short time ago, the speed that abusive relationships tend to move is a lot quicker than a normal healthy one. Feelings are usually far more passionate more early.
Comments
I agree, its not about his love for her but about whether in some way he has been slighted
I agree - it's such massive evidence, that I'd be amazed if Nel missed that. Can only assume that it formed part of Saayman's autopsy report and Nel is going to refer to that in closing argument.
If Roux didn't specifically mention it to Botha, then is Nel allowed to bring it up himself? Dunno. Hopeless Case will know, though.
Especially if that man was black.
It looked to me as if most of the men on that show were
It is well documented that Reeva was not racist.
I am not saying that OP was as I have no evidence to make such a claim.
I am hypothesising.
And it seems he took offence and became very angry very quickly over very little.
He admitted he was not always nice to her.
This relationship was in trouble in January. I think Reeva was in the process of telling him what an arse he was and spelling it out to him and it cost her her life.
Yes, some people only see the world & others in terms of how do they/does this affect me. They are incapable of putting anyone else's feelings before their own, including fear & pain.
Happy Easter all
Yes but you are viewing it from a reasonable, empathetic state of mind.
We can't know what his state of mind is/was.
And OP has demonstrated that in spade loads.
We know from their text messages that he was already upset about something that happened that morning...a meeting he had. For all we know it as playing on his mind, he may even had downed a few drinks and become more wound up/irrational. Reeva tries to calm him down but gives up and wants to leave, which he could have taken as an insult.....
I agree. It's perfectly possible, I just find it strange. He barely knew the woman.
In regard to bits of evidence potentially missed I still find it strange that OP said he knelt down when he was supposed to be on his stumps en route to the bathroom, it immediately suggested to me that as previously suspected he was not on his stumps at all. It may be physically possible to kneel on his stumps but I still think it suggested otherwise.
Yes. And Nel (or Roux) brought this up in court. It was a meeting with a financial advisor, IIRC. I'm surprised the nature of the meeting and its outcome wasn't pursued in court.
That's a shame you will be missed.
We were still laughing at Oscar farting for his luff during the early hours of this morning.
Happy Easter and happy houseworking!
Like most domestic murders the trigger is not the victim but the problem with the murderer that is being highlighted by the victim. A weakness in your own character is never so hard to bear as when it is highlighted by another. This does not take a long established relationship.
Aw you will be missed! Happy Easter
Interesting…. what conclusion would you infer from this ?
- I know that cardiac arrest can take some time to occur after respiratory arrest (very common in drowning victims)…but certainly not 20 minutes !
- Professor Saayman based the 2-3 breaths on the amount of blood inside the lungs.
- DR Stipp said that RS's cornea was already milky upon his arrival at the house.
From OP's testimony :
- OP fired 4 shots at the door
- OP was scared to retreat because maybe someone was on the ladder
- OP stood in bathroom for a while and kept on shouting for RS to phone the police
- OP retreated backwards to the bedroom and kept on shouting for RS
- OP reached the corner of the bed whilst talking to RS but no one responded to him
- OP lifted himself onto the bed and felt RS was not on the right-hand side of the bed
- OP moved along the bed backwards whilst pointing his firearm at the passageway
- OP ran his hand in the curtains to make sure RS was not hiding behind them
- OP felt around and made his way back to the bathroom with his firearm
- OP tried to open the toilet door but it was locked
- OP ran to the bedroom
- OP opened the curtains and the balcony doors and shouted, “Help! Help! Help!”
- OP put his prosthetic legs ON
- OP ran as fast as he could to the bathroom
- OP ran into the toilet door but it didn’t move
- OP tried to kick the door but nothing happened
- OP ran to the bedroom and grabbed the cricket bat
- OP ran straight back to the toilet door
- OP believes he hit the door with cricket bat 3 times
- OP grabbed a big plank of the door panel with his hands and threw it out into the bathroom
- OP tried to open the toilet door from the inside but there was no key in the door
- OP took the keys, unlocked the door and flung it open … threw it open
- OP sat over RS and cried
- OP saw that RS was not breathing
- OP doesn’t for how long he stayed there with RS
- OP saw that RS had her iPhone with her in the toilet cubicle
- OP tried but could not use RS iPhone because it was passcode protected
- OP went to the bedroom where he picked up both his iPhones on the bedside table
- OP went back to the bathroom
- OP made and received calls : TOTAL 3m14s between start of 1st call and end of 5th call
- OP went to bedroom to unlock and open doors
- OP went downstair to unlock and open house doors
- OP went back upstairs to the bedroom
- OP tackled the bedroom door and unlock the other bedroom door
- OP went to the bathroom
- OP picked up RS
- OP carried RS out of the bathroom
- OP carried RS out of the bedroom
- OP carried RS downstairs
IF the 6 minute theory is correct : all the aforementioned actions without the phone use took OP 2 minutes and 46 seconds…which seems too short IMO
IF the 20 minute theory is correct : all the aforementioned actions without the phone use took OP 16 minutes and 46 seconds… which seems too long IMO
Is it possible that the blood trails found were not arterial spurting but blood dripping down from RS's hair and clothes ?
Yes me too, so interesting to hear different views and opinions (especially ones I agree with
Take care all - Happy Easter - see you on the 5th
Very much agree.
imagine falling back and down really fast and with your bottom hitting that wooden rack with force, any part of it would have caused bruising - Oscar pulled her and lifted her up and out of that toilet, dragging I think he said before lifting, so that would have moved the rack, stands to reason.
He would have moved that magazine rack either when he pulled Reeva out of the toilet or afterwards and it would have fallen on its side, he put it out of the way maybe - that's why he's said it was moved, to try confuse the forensics and Prosecution - it has to be taken that he was lying. All the prosecution Expert witnesses and Dixon said she fell onto the mag rack.
It makes sense too that the mag rack was next to the toilet, where magazines are within reach to read while on the toilet - Why would they be on the other side of the toilet against the wall like OP said anycase ? it doesn't make sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyzevivtlKU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Really go to go after this....but.....my understanding is that they don't just decide what is arterial and what is drips by looking - they actually test the blood because they can see whether it's oxygenated and so forth. Roux didn't dispute anything that expert said, so I suspect that the defence have accepted that it's arterial.
They made distinctions between the different types of blood spatter on the staircase - some was drips, some from her hair, some from her shorts and some arterial.
Thanks
Although they only met a short time ago, the speed that abusive relationships tend to move is a lot quicker than a normal healthy one. Feelings are usually far more passionate more early.
http://www.sheknows.com/health-and-wellness/articles/815960/how-a-seemingly-healthy-relationship-turns-abusive-1