They did, but that was such a jolt (to me at least) that it required an enormous suspension of disbelief as the writers rapidly retconned their way to close off the story when it was cancelled.
Ward's reveal seemed plausible enough given his history with Garrett. There were no big clues dropped en route, but it didn't require a change in his character, merely the revelation that it was all an act and all those comparisons to Romanoff were indeed warranted.
iirc there were only 3 eps left in Dollhouse when it was cancelled which explains the rush job to reveal Boyd as evil
in contrast Paxton knew he was the Clairvoyant when he joined in ep 14 while Dalton said he was only told that Ward was a traitor after filming ep 15
I suspect the writers only decided to turn Ward evil when they saw the great chemistry between them and it was easy to do so after Garrett had laid most of the groundwork ;-)
iirc there were only 3 eps left in Dollhouse when it was cancelled which explains the rush job to reveal Boyd as evil
in contrast Paxton knew he was the Clairvoyant when he joined in ep 14 while Dalton said he was only told that Ward was a traitor after filming ep 15
I suspect the writers only decided to turn Ward evil when they saw the great chemistry between them and it was easy to do so after Garrett had laid most of the groundwork ;-)
My point exactly about Dollhouse - it was one of the most rushed retcons ever - and it showed.
Interesting about Paxton/Dalton. I don't think Ward being HYDRA was necessarily part of the plan from the beginning, but the writers would surely have had to have decided that Ward was a traitor long before ep 15 had finished filming? The pivotal episode 17 (Turn, Turn, Turn) would already have been into pre-production by then with the basic script locked except for final tweaks - too late to make such a drastic plot change, surely?
More likely that the decision was made mid-season and that Dalton was only told after episode 15 so it wouldn't start influencing his own performances earlier?
Spike was fully redeemed if we're still using Buffy as source material, and he did very similar things to Ward.....though he was far more cool! ;-)
Spike was a demon and was not even close to being redeemed until he gained a soul. ie. his evil actions were a direct result of his character lacking the ability to be good. His redemption only came after a supernatural event allowed him to understand morality. Spike even said once that he never understood that his actions were evil. As a vampire it was just one big party to him.
Ward, on the other hand, is a regular human being. He doesn't have the get-out card of being a demon with no moral compass and he doesn't have the option of having a soul inserted in order to give him one.
The difference is Spike did wrong without being able to understand it was wrong. Ward did wrong knowing full-well that it was wrong.
My point exactly about Dollhouse - it was one of the most rushed retcons ever - and it showed.
Interesting about Paxton/Dalton. I don't think Ward being HYDRA was necessarily part of the plan from the beginning, but the writers would surely have had to have decided that Ward was a traitor long before ep 15 had finished filming? The pivotal episode 17 (Turn, Turn, Turn) would already have been into pre-production by then with the basic script locked except for final tweaks - too late to make such a drastic plot change, surely?
More likely that the decision was made mid-season and that Dalton was only told after episode 15 so it wouldn't start influencing his own performances earlier?
they can't have much confidence in Dalton's acting skills if the reason they didn't tell him was because they didn't want to influence his earlier performances
Ward was only revealed in the last few secs of ep 17 to be bad when he shot Hand so not much rewriting needed if it was a last min decision imo
afaik tv writers usually write up to 2 eps in advance and tend to make it up as they go along ;-)
More likely that the decision was made mid-season and that Dalton was only told after episode 15 so it wouldn't start influencing his own performances earlier?
they can't have had much confidence in Dalton's acting skills if the reason they didn't tell him earlier was because they didn't want to influence his earlier performances
Ward was only revealed in the last few secs of ep 17 to be bad when he shot Hand so not much rewriting needed if it was a last min decision imo
afaik tv writers usually write up to 2 eps in advance and tend to make it up as they go along ;-)
Here is an interview with Brett Dalton (Ward) about when and how he found out he was going to go bad, and how he had had no idea beforehand.
they can't have much confidence in Dalton's acting skills if the reason they didn't tell him was because they didn't want to influence his earlier performances
Ward was only revealed in the last few secs of ep 17 to be bad when he shot Hand so not much rewriting needed if it was a last min decision imo
afaik tv writers usually write up to 2 eps in advance and tend to make it up as they go along ;-)
Er, hardly. Many series plot out entire seasons in advance. That may not have been the case here, but I very much doubt the writers were making it up as they went along.
Er, hardly. Many series plot out entire seasons in advance. That may not have been the case here, but I very much doubt the writers were making it up as they went along.
when pitching to networks the producers only have to provide seasons-long story arcs to show that they have enough material to make it worth their while
but how they get there is left fluid as they have to react to rapidly changing variables eg. ratings, cast members ill/in rehab, chemistry between characters, popularity of cast members, availability of guest stars, etc
as each season now usually extends to 22 eps it would be unwise for a show to set such a long season in stone esp with all those changing variables ;-)
I suspect the writers only decided to turn Ward evil when they saw the great chemistry between them and it was easy to do so after Garrett had laid most of the groundwork ;-)
They would have known the plot of Winter Soldier before they started, so having a team member turn out to be Hydra was on the cards from the start, and Ward was the obvious choice. I doubt it would have worked with May or Fitzsimmons or Skye.
They would have known the plot of Winter Soldier before they started, so having a team member turn out to be Hydra was on the cards from the start, and Ward was the obvious choice. I doubt it would have worked with May or Fitzsimmons or Skye.
not really
many US fans were looking at Simmons rather than Ward (and still are) ;-)
I suspect the writers only decided to turn Ward evil when they saw the great chemistry between them and it was easy to do so after Garrett had laid most of the groundwork ;-)
Interesting about Paxton/Dalton. I don't think Ward being HYDRA was necessarily part of the plan from the beginning, but the writers would surely have had to have decided that Ward was a traitor long before ep 15 had finished filming? The pivotal episode 17 (Turn, Turn, Turn) would already have been into pre-production by then with the basic script locked except for final tweaks - too late to make such a drastic plot change, surely?
More likely that the decision was made mid-season and that Dalton was only told after episode 15 so it wouldn't start influencing his own performances earlier?
They would have known the plot of Winter Soldier before they started, so having a team member turn out to be Hydra was on the cards from the start, and Ward was the obvious choice. I doubt it would have worked with May or Fitzsimmons or Skye.
Seriously guys, you're very late to the party. This was covered a few pages back on this thread ( pages 74-75). As brangdon mentioned, the writers had the script to Winter Soldier before they even started shooting the pilot and Ward's betrayal was planned from the start. This interview with the producers made that very clear. In another interview early in the season with the head writers Jed and Maurissa, they even said they had a 2 year plan to tell their story. I would recommend you try watching the Marvel documentary "Assembling the Universe" which was shown as a special in the MAoS timeslot in the US. They plan these things long term so I'm not surprised that the TV writers also have to put up their plans to Marvel to get their approval and maintain continuity. And if you thought that the impact only goes one way in the MCU, well, watch the finale ;-) To quote the producers: "It's all connected".
I wouldn't be that surprised if they had a plan to have a HYDRA mole but not finalised who it would be mid season. There could have been a short list of Ward, Simmons, Fitz and possibly May. Coulson and Skye would be no-nos.
Still worked well for me the mole. Not as cringe worthy as most of 24s moles....
Seriously guys, you're very late to the party. This was covered a few pages back on this thread ( pages 74-75). As brangdon mentioned, the writers had the script to Winter Soldier before they even started shooting the pilot and Ward's betrayal was planned from the start. This interview with the producers made that very clear. In another interview early in the season with the head writers Jed and Maurissa, they even said they had a 2 year plan to tell their story. I would recommend you try watching the Marvel documentary "Assembling the Universe" which was shown as a special in the MAoS timeslot in the US. They plan these things long term so I'm not surprised that the TV writers also have to put up their plans to Marvel to get their approval and maintain continuity. And if you thought that the impact only goes one way in the MCU, well, watch the finale ;-) To quote the producers: "It's all connected".
of course the producers/writers will claim it was planned all along <rolleyes>
in one of their interviews they say they start with a handful of "ideas/tent poles/directional markers" but they "don't plan out all the details because cooler and more interesting stuff will come along"
Bad Ward was allegedly one of the tent poles "but where that would happen and how we would reveal that was a living, breathing process as we went along" (in other words they were making it up as they went along lol)
if they could tell Paxton that he was Hydra before he joined ep 14 surely they could've told Ward then too?
iirc there weren't any major scenes in eps 14 & 15 when Ward could've given the game away with bad acting and his "intimate" scenes with Skye were just as unconvincing before and after the reveal
that's why I still think it was an ad hoc decision made after they'd seen the great chemistry between Paxton and Dalton ;-)
So you've continued watching a terrible show? If not then you aren't in any position to comment imho.
Nope, stopped after three episodes. I can tolerate poor shows, especially for things I like (such as Marvel comics), but this was just unwatchable. Bad plots, bad casting, bad acting, bad dialogue, bad everything. A shame really. Unless it got substantially better as it went along, I doubt I missed anything.
Nope, stopped after three episodes. I can tolerate poor shows, especially for things I like (such as Marvel comics), but this was just unwatchable. Bad plots, bad casting, bad acting, bad dialogue, bad everything. A shame really. Unless it got substantially better as it went along, I doubt I missed anything.
I thought it was fine at the start but it has greatly improved too.
of course the producers/writers will claim it was planned all along <rolleyes>
in one of their interviews they say they start with a handful of "ideas/tent poles/directional markers" but they "don't plan out all the details because cooler and more interesting stuff will come along"
Bad Ward was allegedly one of the tent poles "but where that would happen and how we would reveal that was a living, breathing process as we went along" (in other words they were making it up as they went along lol)
if they could tell Paxton that he was Hydra before he joined ep 14 surely they could've told Ward then too?
iirc there weren't any major scenes in eps 14 & 15 when Ward could've given the game away with bad acting and his "intimate" scenes with Skye were just as unconvincing before and after the reveal
that's why I still think it was an ad hoc decision made after they'd seen the great chemistry between Paxton and Dalton ;-)
So you're saying that the producers basically lied and retconned it. Even after I gave good reasons as to why I think they knew what they were doing. Well, you're entitled to your opinion.
Of course the writers don't plan everything out to the last detail except Ward's betrayal is a major plotpoint and not a minor detail. It affects the storyline going forwards in a such major way that it had to be a fixed tentpole to begin with. It covers a big chunk of each episode after the turning point right up to the finale. Not something you would at the last minute make up along the way just because Ward and Garrett had chemistry. Think of the production logistics involved let alone the the storyline. Garrett came in on Ep14 TAHITI. Dalton was informed about his character change when they were shooting Ep15 Yes Men. The reveal came in Ep17. And I don't really see anything in Ep14 between Ward and Garrett's interaction which would justify the change of mind. If anything, that "chemistry" started after Ep17.
As for Paxton being informed early on and not Dalton, it wasn't so much as giving the game away as making it easier for the actor to stay true to his character. So he wouldn't have to double guess if his performance was convincing. It's also an implied admission that the guy's acting skills are not up to par. He isn't exactly James Spader or Robert Downey Jr now is he ? Heck, even if he was Clark Gregg's level, I would be happy. The non-chemistry with Skye has as much to do with Bennett's performance as with his. IMO, both of them are the weakest link, actingwise, and badly miscast.
So you're saying that the producers basically lied and retconned it. Even after I gave good reasons as to why I think they knew what they were doing. Well, you're entitled to your opinion.
Of course the writers don't plan everything out to the last detail except Ward's betrayal is a major plotpoint and not a minor detail. It affects the storyline going forwards in a such major way that it had to be a fixed tentpole to begin with. It covers a big chunk of each episode after the turning point right up to the finale. Not something you would at the last minute make up along the way just because Ward and Garrett had chemistry. Think of the production logistics involved let alone the the storyline. Garrett came in on Ep14 TAHITI. Dalton was informed about his character change when they were shooting Ep15 Yes Men. The reveal came in Ep17. And I don't really see anything in Ep14 between Ward and Garrett's interaction which would justify the change of mind. If anything, that "chemistry" started after Ep17.
As for Paxton being informed early on and not Dalton, it wasn't so much as giving the game away as making it easier for the actor to stay true to his character. So he wouldn't have to double guess if his performance was convincing. It's also an implied admission that the guy's acting skills are not up to par. He isn't exactly James Spader or Robert Downey Jr now is he ? Heck, even if he was Clark Gregg's level, I would be happy. The non-chemistry with Skye has as much to do with Bennett's performance as with his. IMO, both of them are the weakest link, actingwise, and badly miscast.
I agreed with everything you said until the last sentence, miscast really? While I agree there was no chemistry between ward and Skye, the chemistry between garrott and ward and Skye and coulson and even fitzsimmons, has been brilliant and while not my favourite characters they are not the weakest link and they are good actors, bad!ward was brilliant but I will agree like most I think that good!ward was bland and rather boring while Skye has grown and her story arc for next season should show how good a character she is.
I agree with farquharstreet that Ward and Skye are the weakest links in the cast. I find their 'love' scenes cringeworthy and incredibly uncomfortable to watch.
But I thought that Ward and Garrett had sizzling chemistry from the word go in the episode where they attacked the Guest House. So much so that I was even wondering if Brett Dalton was gay LOL.
I thought Chloe Bennett was fine in the episode. Maybe the kissing/romance scenes aren't the best but when she figuered out that Ward was HYDRA I thought she acted it well.
Comments
angelus is a vampire without a soul
angel is a vampire with a soul
and ward is a bad-ass!
iirc there were only 3 eps left in Dollhouse when it was cancelled which explains the rush job to reveal Boyd as evil
in contrast Paxton knew he was the Clairvoyant when he joined in ep 14 while Dalton said he was only told that Ward was a traitor after filming ep 15
I suspect the writers only decided to turn Ward evil when they saw the great chemistry between them and it was easy to do so after Garrett had laid most of the groundwork ;-)
Who is this Buffy and Angel character? I'm sure they don't belong in the Marvel Universe ;-)
Interesting about Paxton/Dalton. I don't think Ward being HYDRA was necessarily part of the plan from the beginning, but the writers would surely have had to have decided that Ward was a traitor long before ep 15 had finished filming? The pivotal episode 17 (Turn, Turn, Turn) would already have been into pre-production by then with the basic script locked except for final tweaks - too late to make such a drastic plot change, surely?
More likely that the decision was made mid-season and that Dalton was only told after episode 15 so it wouldn't start influencing his own performances earlier?
I could handle them finding the TARDIS on a desert island but that's about it
Spike was a demon and was not even close to being redeemed until he gained a soul. ie. his evil actions were a direct result of his character lacking the ability to be good. His redemption only came after a supernatural event allowed him to understand morality. Spike even said once that he never understood that his actions were evil. As a vampire it was just one big party to him.
Ward, on the other hand, is a regular human being. He doesn't have the get-out card of being a demon with no moral compass and he doesn't have the option of having a soul inserted in order to give him one.
The difference is Spike did wrong without being able to understand it was wrong. Ward did wrong knowing full-well that it was wrong.
they can't have much confidence in Dalton's acting skills if the reason they didn't tell him was because they didn't want to influence his earlier performances
Ward was only revealed in the last few secs of ep 17 to be bad when he shot Hand so not much rewriting needed if it was a last min decision imo
afaik tv writers usually write up to 2 eps in advance and tend to make it up as they go along ;-)
Here is an interview with Brett Dalton (Ward) about when and how he found out he was going to go bad, and how he had had no idea beforehand.
http://marvel.com/news/tv/2014/4/8/22302/exclusive_brett_dalton_on_agent_wards_new_role_in_marvels_agents_of_shield.
when pitching to networks the producers only have to provide seasons-long story arcs to show that they have enough material to make it worth their while
but how they get there is left fluid as they have to react to rapidly changing variables eg. ratings, cast members ill/in rehab, chemistry between characters, popularity of cast members, availability of guest stars, etc
as each season now usually extends to 22 eps it would be unwise for a show to set such a long season in stone esp with all those changing variables ;-)
not really
many US fans were looking at Simmons rather than Ward (and still are) ;-)
Seriously guys, you're very late to the party. This was covered a few pages back on this thread ( pages 74-75). As brangdon mentioned, the writers had the script to Winter Soldier before they even started shooting the pilot and Ward's betrayal was planned from the start. This interview with the producers made that very clear. In another interview early in the season with the head writers Jed and Maurissa, they even said they had a 2 year plan to tell their story. I would recommend you try watching the Marvel documentary "Assembling the Universe" which was shown as a special in the MAoS timeslot in the US. They plan these things long term so I'm not surprised that the TV writers also have to put up their plans to Marvel to get their approval and maintain continuity. And if you thought that the impact only goes one way in the MCU, well, watch the finale ;-) To quote the producers: "It's all connected".
Still worked well for me the mole. Not as cringe worthy as most of 24s moles....
of course the producers/writers will claim it was planned all along <rolleyes>
in one of their interviews they say they start with a handful of "ideas/tent poles/directional markers" but they "don't plan out all the details because cooler and more interesting stuff will come along"
Bad Ward was allegedly one of the tent poles "but where that would happen and how we would reveal that was a living, breathing process as we went along" (in other words they were making it up as they went along lol)
if they could tell Paxton that he was Hydra before he joined ep 14 surely they could've told Ward then too?
iirc there weren't any major scenes in eps 14 & 15 when Ward could've given the game away with bad acting and his "intimate" scenes with Skye were just as unconvincing before and after the reveal
that's why I still think it was an ad hoc decision made after they'd seen the great chemistry between Paxton and Dalton ;-)
That was my first post in this thread.
Nope, stopped after three episodes. I can tolerate poor shows, especially for things I like (such as Marvel comics), but this was just unwatchable. Bad plots, bad casting, bad acting, bad dialogue, bad everything. A shame really. Unless it got substantially better as it went along, I doubt I missed anything.
I thought it was fine at the start but it has greatly improved too.
So you're saying that the producers basically lied and retconned it. Even after I gave good reasons as to why I think they knew what they were doing. Well, you're entitled to your opinion.
Of course the writers don't plan everything out to the last detail except Ward's betrayal is a major plotpoint and not a minor detail. It affects the storyline going forwards in a such major way that it had to be a fixed tentpole to begin with. It covers a big chunk of each episode after the turning point right up to the finale. Not something you would at the last minute make up along the way just because Ward and Garrett had chemistry. Think of the production logistics involved let alone the the storyline. Garrett came in on Ep14 TAHITI. Dalton was informed about his character change when they were shooting Ep15 Yes Men. The reveal came in Ep17. And I don't really see anything in Ep14 between Ward and Garrett's interaction which would justify the change of mind. If anything, that "chemistry" started after Ep17.
As for Paxton being informed early on and not Dalton, it wasn't so much as giving the game away as making it easier for the actor to stay true to his character. So he wouldn't have to double guess if his performance was convincing. It's also an implied admission that the guy's acting skills are not up to par. He isn't exactly James Spader or Robert Downey Jr now is he ? Heck, even if he was Clark Gregg's level, I would be happy. The non-chemistry with Skye has as much to do with Bennett's performance as with his. IMO, both of them are the weakest link, actingwise, and badly miscast.
Just like Joss's other shows like Buffy and Angel as it took the whole first seasons to establish everything and season 2 of both were excellent.
I agreed with everything you said until the last sentence, miscast really? While I agree there was no chemistry between ward and Skye, the chemistry between garrott and ward and Skye and coulson and even fitzsimmons, has been brilliant and while not my favourite characters they are not the weakest link and they are good actors, bad!ward was brilliant but I will agree like most I think that good!ward was bland and rather boring while Skye has grown and her story arc for next season should show how good a character she is.
But I thought that Ward and Garrett had sizzling chemistry from the word go in the episode where they attacked the Guest House. So much so that I was even wondering if Brett Dalton was gay LOL.
That's nice twist! Great Episode and love the car scene!