Unless she was incapable, they didn't get it wrong, and as you've admitted you have no idea what is right, you are judging on a few seconds video, without attempting to see the whole story.
It looks bad in the context it was presented, but when looked at in detail, they did what they saw to be right at the time, and what she did after they left was her choice, nothing to do with them.
Are you saying she was incapable, because above you say she shouldn't have been left on the path either. What should they have done, bearing in mind they had a prisoner in the car that they couldn't leave.?
No, this is you just misquoting me again. But since you asked, you've already said by the book she ought have been arrested too. Sounds as good a solution as any to me, far preferable to dumping her in the road like a deposit of horse apples.
No, this is you just misquoting me again. But since you asked, you've already said by the book she ought have been arrested too. Sounds as good a solution as any to me, far preferable to dumping her in the road like a deposit of horse apples.
Not a practical solution at all though. I think they almost achieved the best possible outcome doing what they did. They didn't have to lock her up as well (which would have become a logistical nightmare), instead they removed the problem. It could have been done better by leaving her on the pavement because it would have looked better. Nevertheless, they did what they set out to do.
I don't think the idea that they plopped her there instead of arresting her as they apparently SHOULD have, because it was easier for them, makes them seem any better if I'm honest.
I don't think the idea that they plopped her there instead of arresting her as they apparently SHOULD have, because it was easier for them, makes them seem any better if I'm honest.
Why should they have? It's not a case of it being easier for them, it is a case of working within the confines of finite resources and ensuring that this is taken in to account when deciding how proportionate a certain action may be. There is far more to it than it simply being 'easier', there are huge officer safety implications. If it's not necessary to make that second arrest (and it clearly wasn't) then it would be disproportionate to take such officer safety risks in doing so.
And that is what you were after wasn't it? A couple of weeks without some police bashing, lets re open an old one.
Well if I was, you fell right into the trap lol
Actually, I happened to randomly see that ACC Hamilton had been promoted, and decided to mention it as a fitting rider to this thread. It could have stood alone and I'd have been happy.
Also, it's not police bashing, and it's counter intuitive to suggest it was.
I'm starting to think the job gives you a flair for the melodramatic.
Nothing melodramatic about it, I just understand the reality of what can happen in certain situations, particularly when I've been in similar positions. I'm sure you wouldn't say it was melodramatic if you have a prisoner and whilst awaiting transport you were a set upon by his two very angry, drunken and coked up mates. My colleague had left me to deal with another incident, was that wrong? I don't know, I wouldn't say so. Would you expect us to ignore the distressing screams coming from a side street in the middle of the night? I very much doubt it, you'd expect us to put ourselves in harms way and guess what, we did. Just be aware that our response to what looks like a straight forward incident to you, will be based upon the fact that we've experienced things you probably haven't and will not have to, and quite simply want nothing other than to go home to our families in one piece at the end of the shift.
Locking her up opens a whole can of worms including officer safety risks. Completely unnecessary officer safety risks in this case because she was left in very little [and less] danger and had the capability to keep herself safe.
No, this is you just misquoting me again. But since you asked, you've already said by the book she ought have been arrested too. Sounds as good a solution as any to me, far preferable to dumping her in the road like a deposit of horse apples.
You've got a nerve talking of misquoting, and then saying I said she ought to have been arrested! I said could.
No, you haven't said she should have been left on the pavement, in fact you haven't given any alternative to what did happen, because you have no comprehension of what it is like to deal with such an incident.
They didn't need to arrest her, and that was a decision they make, and one that is commonly made. They had a prisoner in the car, and it would have been crazy to put her inside too, because there would be no way to control the pair of them.
All that needed doing was her being moved to prevent crime, and that is what they did. She wasn't incapable was she?
Then I apologise, which is more than you've done the multiple times you've misquoted me.
But again, her capability is irrelevant. We're going round in circles perpetually, which is fine by me cause it means I'll be right and you'll be wrong.....foreverrrrrr
Then I apologise, which is more than you've done the multiple times you've misquoted me.
But again, her capability is irrelevant. We're going round in circles perpetually, which is fine by me cause it means I'll be right and you'll be wrong.....foreverrrrrr
In your mind.
Those who have dealt with such situations understand the realities. Those that live via youtube don't see beyond that.
You can keep pretending you're part of some exclusive club and nobody else has the right to an opinion on what they did, you'll still be dead wrong.
(foreverrrrr)
If you had an opinion it would actually be better, but you don't. You cant say what the policy is on this, despite suggesting there was one, you don't know where they should have put her, if anywhere. You wont comment on the full circumstances. All you can say is they were wrong, which without any detail is pointless.
Why would it be better if I spent ten times longer drawing up essays explaining my opinion? We would still be in the same place and you'd still be wrong forever and ever and ever, amen.
Why would it be better if I spent ten times longer drawing up essays explaining my opinion? We would still be in the same place and you'd still be wrong forever and ever and ever, amen.
You haven't got an opinion, or any idea, or you'd have told us.
And here was me thinking I've given a definitive view on whether they were right to dump her on the road about twenty times now. My imagination is something else, good thing I've got DP to keep it in check!
And here was me thinking I've given a definitive view on whether they were right to dump her on the road about twenty times now. My imagination is something else, good thing I've got DP to keep it in check!
They didn't dump her though. She was not incapacitated. They moved a screaming banshee a few yards, and drove off.
They didn't dump her though. She was not incapacitated. They moved a screaming banshee a few yards, and drove off.
What should they have done, and why?
Put her on the pavement as already stated many times.
Instead they left her lying in the road, with the attendant danger of passing traffic, an act rightly described as horrendous, by recently promoted Chief Constable, George Hamilton.
Put her on the pavement as already stated many times.
Instead they left her lying in the road, with the attendant danger of passing traffic, an act rightly described as horrendous, by recently promoted Chief Constable, George Hamilton.
Yes, but I was asking the poster who said he'd never said he would put her on the pavement.
The pavement is no place to leave someone incapacitated anyway, so that would be wrong if she was, as stated many times.
But she wasn't incapacitated, so the road being a far worse place than the pavement to put an incapacitated person, is irrelevant.
She wasn't physically incapacitated, but her mental state may have rendered her far more vulnerable than normal. Indeed, the very video you linked to yesterday, showed her continuing to lie in the road, long after she had been left there.
Put her on the pavement as already stated many times.
Instead they left her lying in the road, with the attendant danger of passing traffic, an act rightly described as horrendous, by recently promoted Chief Constable, George Hamilton.
So leave her in danger of being trampled over by a pedestrian who isn't paying attention? That's an unlikely thing to happen but it is a possible outcome just as her being run over was a possible outcome in the bus lane. Her mental state may have indeed left her vulnerable but the officers at the time could only go on what they saw and that's all we can ask. The alternative would be for the police to start taking every single drunk person they come across to hospital just to conclusively rule out the possibility of them being incapable which is certainly not a thing that would work. The chief constable was quite simply wrong to comment on it before there was an investigation because there might be something which justifies action taken in a video that looks wrong when viewed by itself. Surely innocent until proven guilty should apply to police officers accused of wrongdoing too and if an investigation found that they were wrong that's when he should be condemning their actions. All he needed to say was that it would be looked into and any wrongdoing dealt with because that statement is a neutral one which doesn't assume guilt from the start but still makes clear that any wrongdoing will be punished.
So leave her in danger of being trampled over by a pedestrian who isn't paying attention? That's an unlikely thing to happen but it is a possible outcome just as her being run over was a possible outcome in the bus lane. Her mental state may have indeed left her vulnerable but the officers at the time could only go on what they saw and that's all we can ask. The alternative would be for the police to start taking every single drunk person they come across to hospital just to conclusively rule out the possibility of them being incapable which is certainly not a thing that would work. The chief constable was quite simply wrong to comment on it before there was an investigation because there might be something which justifies action taken in a video that looks wrong when viewed by itself. Surely innocent until proven guilty should apply to police officers accused of wrongdoing too and if an investigation found that they were wrong that's when he should be condemning their actions. All he needed to say was that it would be looked into and any wrongdoing dealt with because that statement is a neutral one which doesn't assume guilt from the start but still makes clear that any wrongdoing will be punished.
Leaving her on the pavement is infinitely less dangerous than leaving her in the road. You saw on the video how empty the pavement was, but even if busy, the likelihood of her being trampled is negligible.
The Chief Constable was 100% correct in speaking out and answering quite reasonable media questions when put on the spot. No other answer than what he gave could have been given. Had he done so, newspaper headlines saying that the ACC condones or may condone leaving incapacitated people lying in the road, would have occurred. That really would have left him open to questioning.
I'm incredulous that people are either too obtuse or too biased to see this really basic fact.
Leaving her on the pavement may not be the ideal solution either, but it doesn't even bear comparison with leaving her in the road.
Comments
Not a practical solution at all though. I think they almost achieved the best possible outcome doing what they did. They didn't have to lock her up as well (which would have become a logistical nightmare), instead they removed the problem. It could have been done better by leaving her on the pavement because it would have looked better. Nevertheless, they did what they set out to do.
Why should they have? It's not a case of it being easier for them, it is a case of working within the confines of finite resources and ensuring that this is taken in to account when deciding how proportionate a certain action may be. There is far more to it than it simply being 'easier', there are huge officer safety implications. If it's not necessary to make that second arrest (and it clearly wasn't) then it would be disproportionate to take such officer safety risks in doing so.
And that quote there is the point that Deep Purple was making in post #646.
Well if I was, you fell right into the trap lol
Actually, I happened to randomly see that ACC Hamilton had been promoted, and decided to mention it as a fitting rider to this thread. It could have stood alone and I'd have been happy.
Also, it's not police bashing, and it's counter intuitive to suggest it was.
Nothing melodramatic about it, I just understand the reality of what can happen in certain situations, particularly when I've been in similar positions. I'm sure you wouldn't say it was melodramatic if you have a prisoner and whilst awaiting transport you were a set upon by his two very angry, drunken and coked up mates. My colleague had left me to deal with another incident, was that wrong? I don't know, I wouldn't say so. Would you expect us to ignore the distressing screams coming from a side street in the middle of the night? I very much doubt it, you'd expect us to put ourselves in harms way and guess what, we did. Just be aware that our response to what looks like a straight forward incident to you, will be based upon the fact that we've experienced things you probably haven't and will not have to, and quite simply want nothing other than to go home to our families in one piece at the end of the shift.
Locking her up opens a whole can of worms including officer safety risks. Completely unnecessary officer safety risks in this case because she was left in very little [and less] danger and had the capability to keep herself safe.
You've got a nerve talking of misquoting, and then saying I said she ought to have been arrested! I said could.
No, you haven't said she should have been left on the pavement, in fact you haven't given any alternative to what did happen, because you have no comprehension of what it is like to deal with such an incident.
They didn't need to arrest her, and that was a decision they make, and one that is commonly made. They had a prisoner in the car, and it would have been crazy to put her inside too, because there would be no way to control the pair of them.
All that needed doing was her being moved to prevent crime, and that is what they did. She wasn't incapable was she?
But again, her capability is irrelevant. We're going round in circles perpetually, which is fine by me cause it means I'll be right and you'll be wrong.....foreverrrrrr
In your mind.
Those who have dealt with such situations understand the realities. Those that live via youtube don't see beyond that.
(foreverrrrr)
If you had an opinion it would actually be better, but you don't. You cant say what the policy is on this, despite suggesting there was one, you don't know where they should have put her, if anywhere. You wont comment on the full circumstances. All you can say is they were wrong, which without any detail is pointless.
You haven't got an opinion, or any idea, or you'd have told us.
Come back blueblade, all is forgiven.:)
They didn't dump her though. She was not incapacitated. They moved a screaming banshee a few yards, and drove off.
What should they have done, and why?
Put her on the pavement as already stated many times.
Instead they left her lying in the road, with the attendant danger of passing traffic, an act rightly described as horrendous, by recently promoted Chief Constable, George Hamilton.
Yes, but I was asking the poster who said he'd never said he would put her on the pavement.
The pavement is no place to leave someone incapacitated anyway, so that would be wrong if she was, as stated many times.
The road is far worse.
But she wasn't incapacitated, so the road being a far worse place than the pavement to put an incapacitated person, is irrelevant.
She wasn't physically incapacitated, but her mental state may have rendered her far more vulnerable than normal. Indeed, the very video you linked to yesterday, showed her continuing to lie in the road, long after she had been left there.
So leave her in danger of being trampled over by a pedestrian who isn't paying attention? That's an unlikely thing to happen but it is a possible outcome just as her being run over was a possible outcome in the bus lane. Her mental state may have indeed left her vulnerable but the officers at the time could only go on what they saw and that's all we can ask. The alternative would be for the police to start taking every single drunk person they come across to hospital just to conclusively rule out the possibility of them being incapable which is certainly not a thing that would work. The chief constable was quite simply wrong to comment on it before there was an investigation because there might be something which justifies action taken in a video that looks wrong when viewed by itself. Surely innocent until proven guilty should apply to police officers accused of wrongdoing too and if an investigation found that they were wrong that's when he should be condemning their actions. All he needed to say was that it would be looked into and any wrongdoing dealt with because that statement is a neutral one which doesn't assume guilt from the start but still makes clear that any wrongdoing will be punished.
Leaving her on the pavement is infinitely less dangerous than leaving her in the road. You saw on the video how empty the pavement was, but even if busy, the likelihood of her being trampled is negligible.
The Chief Constable was 100% correct in speaking out and answering quite reasonable media questions when put on the spot. No other answer than what he gave could have been given. Had he done so, newspaper headlines saying that the ACC condones or may condone leaving incapacitated people lying in the road, would have occurred. That really would have left him open to questioning.
I'm incredulous that people are either too obtuse or too biased to see this really basic fact.
Leaving her on the pavement may not be the ideal solution either, but it doesn't even bear comparison with leaving her in the road.