Really enjoyed that finale. It's been a cracking season overall too - probably the best one they've done.
One thing I didn't buy though was how easily Jon managed to persuade Stannis to show Mance leniency. You'd think he'd be mightily keen to cut off Mance's head after he refused to kneel to the 'one true King.' I don't think them both getting dewy-eyed over Ned's honour was convincing really. That was what led to him being killed after all.
I see what you mean, particularly regarding how/why Ned died, but I suppose Jon, as the son of Ned stood out amongst the rest of the 'usurpers' Stannis has been dealing with and he had a rare magnanimous moment. Had Jon suggested letting Mance go, I doubt Stannis would have agreed to that! Having said that, Stannis considered Robb, another of Ned's sons to be a usurper, but I suppose the difference is that Jon did not try and assert himself as a king. I was always a little puzzled by Stannis considering Robb to be a usurper - I always presumed that Robb was specifically rising up against the Lannisters being in power, but would have yielded to Stannis had he been successful at Blackwater. Maybe Stannis didn't get that memo?
My favourite scenes from last night.
Stannis. For the first time, he really did it for me, character-wise.
Tyrion and Tywin's last stand
And the excellent scene between Brienne and Ayra. Gwendoline Christie should be in the show more. She's outstanding.
I do agree - Stannis as a character has really found his place in the grim North! He just felt right being there, and for the first time, I'm excited to see where his storyline will go, particularly with the shifty looks Melisandre was giving Jon.
What's the world coming to when even TV Characters give away upcoming plot points
I think I must have missed something here - did Aidan Gillen give away Tywin's fate? Charles Dance kindly did it for me in the extended Thronecast interview he did, maybe around Season 2 time, when he said that his character met a gothic end. Then my boss really helped matters last week when, having not seen Episode 9 yet, asked me whether Tyrion had given his father 'a bolt from the blue' yet? So when I saw Tyrion approaching Tywin with the crossbow, I rather knew what was coming. Had no idea about Shae though, that was a real shock, as was finding out what a hypocrite Tywin was! Amazing that at the beginning of the season, I was worried for Shae's fate when Cersei discovered her identity, but after last night's scene with Tyrion finding her in his father's bed, I could quite understand the turn of events that followed, from Tyrion's point of view. Very touching farewell between Jaime and Tyrion.
Keeping with actors giving away character futures, with the Hound, at a convention, Rory McCann was asked whether he'd read the books, and he replied, with a sad face "I've read....further than I would have liked" or something similar, which left me wondering. Having not read the books, I like to think of him as I do Syrio - death not seen, so not yet confirmed! I really thought Arya would finish him off though. Although Tywin's death wasn't technically seen, a man of his age in those times is unlikely to survive those injuries - point-blank range of a crossbow. Unless Cersei's non-Maester can get to him! What on earth will they create out of the Mountain?
Phew, what a finale - so action-packed, I felt so overwhelmed I ended up feeling numb. Enjoyable as it was, it didn't leave me as affected as Oberyn's fight or last week's battle, and I don't know why.
Dany's ending with her dragons was very sad - how ironic that she spent the season being breaker of chains to thousands of slaves, but ends up chaining therefore enslaving her own 'children'. If she ever decides to go on the move with her dragons, I wouldn't like to be the one to release them! Also in the meantime, they will continue to grow, so surely those chains will eventually become too tight and need replacing. And I'm sure she will have more on her hands with Drogon currently on the loose. One (or rather three!) of Dany's biggest assets have this season become a bane of her life.
I really thought we'd be left with a cliffhanger ending, but again, they've wrapped the majority of things up very nicely while leaving us with enough to ponder and look forward to next year. This is the best show ever!
I was expecting a bastard from Tywin to show up. A new Snow, someone to rattle Jaime Cresei and Tyrian. A new claim on th throne, perhaps from another family he sired someplace else.
I was expecting a bastard from Tywin to show up. A new Snow, someone to rattle Jaime Cresei and Tyrian. A new claim on th throne, perhaps from another family he sired someplace else.
It wouldn't be a Snow. Snow is for bastards from the North (Jon Snow, Ramsay Snow).
I was always a little puzzled by Stannis considering Robb to be a usurper - I always presumed that Robb was specifically rising up against the Lannisters being in power, but would have yielded to Stannis had he been successful at Blackwater. Maybe Stannis didn't get that memo?
Robb wanted to North to secede, basically, hence the "King in the North" stuff. Stannis is, if anything, a stickler for the rules, and sees himself as the rightful heir of the seven kingdoms, not the six kingdoms.
What on earth will they create out of the Mountain?
There was a definite Frankenstein's monster vibe going on with it! Although when the fella said that he might come back changed, maybe he meant that he'll be into poetry and puppies and kittens
Robb wanted to North to secede, basically, hence the "King in the North" stuff. Stannis is, if anything, a stickler for the rules, and sees himself as the rightful heir of the seven kingdoms, not the six kingdoms.
There was a definite Frankenstein's monster vibe going on with it! Although when the fella said that he might come back changed, maybe he meant that he'll be into poetry and puppies and kittens
Thanks for the reminder re Robb. Not sure Ned would have been happy with that, as we know he was also a stickler, which cost him his life.
LOL re the Mountain! I think we all suspect whatever he comes back as, it won't be an upgrade!
Not given away per se and technically not by Aiden but by his character. More of a foreshadowing.
In episode 8 he said something to Robyn about death and how people all die in different ways, including "squatting over a chamber pot".
Ah thank you. The way AG's accent has been going this season, I must have either glazed over when he said that, or I was in the middle of a moan about his accent changes!
I didn't think anything of it at the time (same as when RoC started playing during the Red Wedding) but last night when it happened I realised, "hang on a minute!"
Excellent as always, but I do wish certain, what seem to me to be key, issues for consideration weren't simply glossed over with a 'it is what it is, get over it' sort of approach. For instance, what did The Hound and Arya do after hearing that (Aunt) Lysa was dead? Are we to assume they both just went 'Oh well, nevermind' and turned round? They'd been making that journey for weeks or months. Ok, we know that Arya laughed her head off, but wouldn't you think they'd at least have asked if they could stop a while, maybe re-stocked provisions or whatever? Once inside, of course, that would have created an opportunity for her to see Sansa. As for The Hound, the only reason he put up with the whiny little brat for so long was the 'certainty' of a reward. Where were they headed, what was the plan when that fell through? Why did he even carry on 'escorting' her? Are we to assume he had <whisper it> 'feelings' for her (of the paternal kind of course) !?
As for Stannis's massive army suddenly taking the wildlings by surprise, how could that realistically happen?! They spotted Snow walking alone through the wood. How is no-one detected what must have been 1000's of horses galloping up on them?!
They probably did not continue any storyline of The hound and Arya at the Erie, as I believe in the books, they did not even go there?
Oh yeah, obviously the TV show can only work with what it's got, but surely Martin must have put a bit more detail into the books than how it was portrayed? The characters must at the very least have had a 'Ok, so what do we do now then?' conversation (or, more likely, The Hound probably swore a lot, then told Arya where they were going next ).
Anybody else think that Tyrion would have taken one look at that chest and said "no thanks, I'll take my chances elsewhere" considering he'd seen Varys's previous chest occupant?:D
Talk about caught between a rock and a hard place.
They probably did not continue any storyline of The hound and Arya at the Erie, as I believe in the books, they did not even go there?
I suppose they could've filmed The Hound and Arya going to the gate and asking to come in then being told by the guards that nobody could enter but it would have been pointless filler, there's enough going on without little scenes like that! ;-)
Oh yeah, obviously the TV show can only work with what it's got, but surely Martin must have put a bit more detail into the books than how it was portrayed? The characters must at the very least have had a 'Ok, so what do we do now then?' conversation (or, more likely, The Hound probably swore a lot, then told Arya where they were going next ).
(I'm not asking, BTW, just speculating.)
And he was ill from the shoulder wound.
I agree with you.:)
I suppose they could've filmed The Hound and Arya going to the gate and asking to come in then being told by the guards that nobody could enter but it would have been pointless filler, there's enough going on without little scenes like that! ;-)
True. They've got all those 'I didn't think being a Queen would be like this ' scenes of Dany's to show. Just in case we didn't get the idea the first time. Or the second. Or third. Or...
Which book would you need to start to carry on from the end of S4?
Tough question. Technically the series is aligned now with the start of book 4, but some characters story arcs in the series are much further ahead in the books, some way behind and some in alignment. The books are also split between characters, unlike the show, as viewers would not want to hear they have to wait until say series six to see their favourite character for example.
There is a good chance that soon the book readers will be avoiding threads about the television series in case they come across any spoilers. The series is also starting to go it's own way and is making more and more changes from what happens in the books.
True. They've got all those 'I didn't think being a Queen would be like this ' scenes of Dany's to show. Just in case we didn't get the idea the first time. Or the second. Or third. Or...
They so have to stop with all the Titles.:D
And what's wrong with the suggestion that slaves can return to work for their former masters but they get a wage for it?
Slaves start earning, good for the economy.
It's a bit obvious surely?
And what's wrong with the suggestion that slaves can return to work for their former masters but they get a wage for it?
Slaves start earning, good for the economy.
It's a bit obvious surely?
I do think its good to highlight how her good intentions can have unforeseen consequences. Also that she seems to be handling these issues pretty well. I'm not sure she was suggesting they would get a wage, as such. Sounds more like indentured servitude.
Plus the scene with the dragons was pretty poignant and the CGI was extremely good, too. They're becoming quite impressive!
In terms of plot they can only work with what's in the books and, presumably, there hasn't been much plot for her in the books up to this point so they've had to use a fair amount of padding. The alternative, however, would be to just forget about her for a season and I think she's too important a character for that.
Yes, the fireballs seemed to be from some sort of object that the child was throwing at them but that whole Bran segment was definitely full on fantasy. I remember thinking at the time that this could alienate the non-fantasy fans that the show had managed to pull in up till now. Personally, I loved it, and I don't think the fantasy is going to be reducing any time soon so I hope the viewers who aren't into that stuff can learn to accept it.
They have had zombies and dragons from the very start, but it is portrayed as a part of the world, rather than a fantasy show. After all its a made up world. I guess it could be called fantasy light.
Knowing the history of the child throwing fire meant it made sense for me, but I am not sure how much can be discussed on a non book spoiler thread, so I can't say any details.
The Danaerys is annoying me. Does she really think chaining up her dragons is the solution? I hate it when characters make stupid decisions. Like how well does she think this is going to go?
The Danaerys is annoying me. Does she really think chaining up her dragons is the solution? I hate it when characters make stupid decisions. Like how well does she think this is going to go?
Why would that not work?
Do you have an alternative suggestion? Short of putting them down, of course.
i think that is where varys and tyrion are heading. i think now we've established all the different places we're going to see characters meeting up
I think Pentos is a more likely destination for Tyrion and Varys. Remember that that Illyrio is a friend of Varys and has experience of conceiling exiles (Viserys and Daenerys).
Braavos would be the last place I'd go - the Lannisters are in debt to the Iron Bank who "always get their gold". No matter what Tyrion has done, I'm pretty sure they'd see capturing him as an opportunity to do that.
(And before anyone starts, this is all speculation...I've no idea what's going to happen. Their ship might sink or be burnt by Drogon for all I know...)
So Monday morning for some stupid reason I visited the forum and opened the thread... luckily I realised my mistake and shut it without seeing spoilers
I thought it was Stannis from the music playing when the army attacked, but wasn't sure until he revealed himself, cleverly we viewers only got a flying (or should that be galloping) glimpse of the banners so couldn't identify for sure until the reveal.
I thought Arya was an ungrateful b*tch to Brienne but then had to grin when she took the Hound's water and then walked away from him. And outright smiling when the captain said he was going to Bravos!
Varys was going back to Kings Landing but then heard the bells ringing raising the alarm- and with a look of regret turned round and went to the ship instead. I think if he could have sneaked back in before Tywin was discovered and the alarm raised he would have done.
Did not see Tyrion/Twyin/Shae coming at all! I will miss Charles Dance, hoping he may not be dead but that second shot looked fatal. I remember Tywin telling Cersei I think to have Shae brought to his chamber at the Purple Wedding- now we know what he had in mind.
I had him cast as a rigidly moral man so I did not see that coming. Shocked Cersei revealed the truth to him and that he hadn't believed it. I suppose that was the only weapon she had left. I always liked Shae but hate her now lol. I know she was deeply hurt by Tyrion's rejection but what a revenge.
I was surprised at just how supernatural the Bran story got.
Sad to see Dany have to chain her dragons but it was inevitable. The girl's death was the only spoiler I knew for S4 beyond Joffrey dying at his wedding. I did well! Her poor maid though, having to say all those titles for every single petitioner!
I think I would have liked Tyrion and Shae to have more of a conversation before their tussle, as I'm still a little unclear as to whether she was playing Tyrion all along (which I think she was) or whether she also loved him, but was so stupid, she couldn't understand why he sent her away and exacted the ultimate revenge - key prosecution witness then bedding his father!
Did anyone else have a Harry Hill conversation in their house when The Hound and Brienne drew swords?
Comments
I see what you mean, particularly regarding how/why Ned died, but I suppose Jon, as the son of Ned stood out amongst the rest of the 'usurpers' Stannis has been dealing with and he had a rare magnanimous moment. Had Jon suggested letting Mance go, I doubt Stannis would have agreed to that!
I do agree - Stannis as a character has really found his place in the grim North! He just felt right being there, and for the first time, I'm excited to see where his storyline will go, particularly with the shifty looks Melisandre was giving Jon.
I think I must have missed something here - did Aidan Gillen give away Tywin's fate? Charles Dance kindly did it for me in the extended Thronecast interview he did, maybe around Season 2 time, when he said that his character met a gothic end. Then my boss really helped matters last week when, having not seen Episode 9 yet, asked me whether Tyrion had given his father 'a bolt from the blue' yet? So when I saw Tyrion approaching Tywin with the crossbow, I rather knew what was coming. Had no idea about Shae though, that was a real shock, as was finding out what a hypocrite Tywin was! Amazing that at the beginning of the season, I was worried for Shae's fate when Cersei discovered her identity, but after last night's scene with Tyrion finding her in his father's bed, I could quite understand the turn of events that followed, from Tyrion's point of view. Very touching farewell between Jaime and Tyrion.
Keeping with actors giving away character futures, with the Hound, at a convention, Rory McCann was asked whether he'd read the books, and he replied, with a sad face "I've read....further than I would have liked" or something similar, which left me wondering. Having not read the books, I like to think of him as I do Syrio - death not seen, so not yet confirmed! I really thought Arya would finish him off though. Although Tywin's death wasn't technically seen, a man of his age in those times is unlikely to survive those injuries - point-blank range of a crossbow. Unless Cersei's non-Maester can get to him! What on earth will they create out of the Mountain?
Phew, what a finale - so action-packed, I felt so overwhelmed I ended up feeling numb. Enjoyable as it was, it didn't leave me as affected as Oberyn's fight or last week's battle, and I don't know why.
Dany's ending with her dragons was very sad - how ironic that she spent the season being breaker of chains to thousands of slaves, but ends up chaining therefore enslaving her own 'children'. If she ever decides to go on the move with her dragons, I wouldn't like to be the one to release them! Also in the meantime, they will continue to grow, so surely those chains will eventually become too tight and need replacing. And I'm sure she will have more on her hands with Drogon currently on the loose. One (or rather three!) of Dany's biggest assets have this season become a bane of her life.
I really thought we'd be left with a cliffhanger ending, but again, they've wrapped the majority of things up very nicely while leaving us with enough to ponder and look forward to next year. This is the best show ever!
It wouldn't be a Snow. Snow is for bastards from the North (Jon Snow, Ramsay Snow).
Robb wanted to North to secede, basically, hence the "King in the North" stuff. Stannis is, if anything, a stickler for the rules, and sees himself as the rightful heir of the seven kingdoms, not the six kingdoms.
There was a definite Frankenstein's monster vibe going on with it! Although when the fella said that he might come back changed, maybe he meant that he'll be into poetry and puppies and kittens
Not given away per se and technically not by Aiden but by his character. More of a foreshadowing.
In episode 8 he said something to Robyn about death and how people all die in different ways, including "squatting over a chamber pot".
Thanks for the reminder re Robb. Not sure Ned would have been happy with that, as we know he was also a stickler, which cost him his life.
LOL re the Mountain! I think we all suspect whatever he comes back as, it won't be an upgrade!
Ah thank you. The way AG's accent has been going this season, I must have either glazed over when he said that, or I was in the middle of a moan about his accent changes!
As for Stannis's massive army suddenly taking the wildlings by surprise, how could that realistically happen?! They spotted Snow walking alone through the wood. How is no-one detected what must have been 1000's of horses galloping up on them?!
Apart from those niggles, fantastic last ep.
(I'm not asking, BTW, just speculating.)
Talk about caught between a rock and a hard place.
I suppose they could've filmed The Hound and Arya going to the gate and asking to come in then being told by the guards that nobody could enter but it would have been pointless filler, there's enough going on without little scenes like that! ;-)
And he was ill from the shoulder wound.
I agree with you.:)
Tough question. Technically the series is aligned now with the start of book 4, but some characters story arcs in the series are much further ahead in the books, some way behind and some in alignment. The books are also split between characters, unlike the show, as viewers would not want to hear they have to wait until say series six to see their favourite character for example.
There is a good chance that soon the book readers will be avoiding threads about the television series in case they come across any spoilers. The series is also starting to go it's own way and is making more and more changes from what happens in the books.
They so have to stop with all the Titles.:D
And what's wrong with the suggestion that slaves can return to work for their former masters but they get a wage for it?
Slaves start earning, good for the economy.
It's a bit obvious surely?
I do think its good to highlight how her good intentions can have unforeseen consequences. Also that she seems to be handling these issues pretty well. I'm not sure she was suggesting they would get a wage, as such. Sounds more like indentured servitude.
Plus the scene with the dragons was pretty poignant and the CGI was extremely good, too. They're becoming quite impressive!
In terms of plot they can only work with what's in the books and, presumably, there hasn't been much plot for her in the books up to this point so they've had to use a fair amount of padding. The alternative, however, would be to just forget about her for a season and I think she's too important a character for that.
They have had zombies and dragons from the very start, but it is portrayed as a part of the world, rather than a fantasy show. After all its a made up world. I guess it could be called fantasy light.
Knowing the history of the child throwing fire meant it made sense for me, but I am not sure how much can be discussed on a non book spoiler thread, so I can't say any details.
Why would that not work?
Do you have an alternative suggestion? Short of putting them down, of course.
Braavos would be the last place I'd go - the Lannisters are in debt to the Iron Bank who "always get their gold". No matter what Tyrion has done, I'm pretty sure they'd see capturing him as an opportunity to do that.
(And before anyone starts, this is all speculation...I've no idea what's going to happen. Their ship might sink or be burnt by Drogon for all I know...)
I thought it was Stannis from the music playing when the army attacked, but wasn't sure until he revealed himself, cleverly we viewers only got a flying (or should that be galloping) glimpse of the banners so couldn't identify for sure until the reveal.
I thought Arya was an ungrateful b*tch to Brienne but then had to grin when she took the Hound's water and then walked away from him. And outright smiling when the captain said he was going to Bravos!
Varys was going back to Kings Landing but then heard the bells ringing raising the alarm- and with a look of regret turned round and went to the ship instead. I think if he could have sneaked back in before Tywin was discovered and the alarm raised he would have done.
Did not see Tyrion/Twyin/Shae coming at all! I will miss Charles Dance, hoping he may not be dead but that second shot looked fatal. I remember Tywin telling Cersei I think to have Shae brought to his chamber at the Purple Wedding- now we know what he had in mind.
I had him cast as a rigidly moral man so I did not see that coming. Shocked Cersei revealed the truth to him and that he hadn't believed it. I suppose that was the only weapon she had left. I always liked Shae but hate her now lol. I know she was deeply hurt by Tyrion's rejection but what a revenge.
I was surprised at just how supernatural the Bran story got.
Sad to see Dany have to chain her dragons but it was inevitable. The girl's death was the only spoiler I knew for S4 beyond Joffrey dying at his wedding. I did well! Her poor maid though, having to say all those titles for every single petitioner!
Did anyone else have a Harry Hill conversation in their house when The Hound and Brienne drew swords?