The parents should be free to opt the kids out form worship as it's not fair to an atheist having to take part in a act of worship to any religion, and it's not fair to other religions having to take part in christian worship.
Luckily parents already have the right to opt their kids out of RE and worship. They just don't do it - except for Jehovas Witnesses who generally do.
Worship or attending worship in a free society should always be opt in not opt out.
Freedom to practice religion is part of a free society. Christianity is part of this nation's tradition and culture, it is part of this free society, atheism is not the default position in this society. A free society with a tradition and culture that includes religion is not one that ceases to do religion as its default position to acquiesce to the will of a minority of anti-religious atheists. A free society is one that respects the right of those who do not want to take part to not take part. A free society is one where parent's are not forced to have their children take part in collective acts of worship, and one where society is not forced to abandon its collective religious practictes and traditions. Freedom is not the freedom to dictate to society what it should do or what its default position should be, it is the freedom to decide what you do.
Freedom to practice religion is part of a free society. Christianity is part of this nation's tradition and culture, it is part of this free society, atheism is not the default position in this society. A free society with a tradition and culture that includes religion is not one that ceases to do religion as its default position to acquiesce to the will of a minority of anti-religious atheists. A free society is one that respects the right of those who do not want to take part to not take part. A free society is one where parent's are not forced to have their children take part in collective acts of worship, and one where society is not forced to abandon its collective religious practictes and traditions..
Organised religion is increasingly becoming only relevant to a minority though. There is no real need or demand for collective acts of worship.
No.
A child is the responsibility of their parents. It is perfectly acceptable for parents to dictate what a child does, or is and is not permitted to do, as long as the parents are not neglecting or abusing their child.
No.
A child is the responsibility of their parents. It is perfectly acceptable for parents to dictate what a child does, or is and is not permitted to do, as long as the parents are not neglecting or abusing their child.
This may be true for very young children, but surely older children are quite capable of thinking for themselves and making their own decisions about certain matters? I can't think why a sensible teenager who happens to be an atheist should be forced to take part in an act of worship, for example!
Organised religion is increasingly becoming only relevant to a minority though. There is no real need or demand for collective acts of worship.
And parents and schools can opt out, and the elected government can change the legislation on the default position if it views that is what the general public want.
Banning collective acts of worship or even religious faith from schools which is what some posters want is a different ball game, from people and schools choosing to opt out of taking part in or having chollectiv acts of worship or society choosing to change the default position via its elected government to opt in rather than opt out.
And parents and schools can opt out, and the elected government can change the legislation on the default position if it views that is what the general public want.
Banning collective acts of worship or even religious faith from schools which is what some posters want is a different ball game, from people and schools choosing to opt out of taking part in or having chollectiv acts of worship or society choosing to change the default position via its elected government to opt in rather than opt out.
There really shouldn't be any worship in schools, to opt in or out of. We're just so used to it happening that we're blinded to the daftness of it.
This may be true for very young children, but surely older children are quite capable of thinking for themselves and making their own decisions about certain matters? I can't think why a sensible teenager who happens to be an atheist should be forced to take part in an act of worship, for example!
If the child meets Gillick competance or the Fraiser guidelines I do not see why the child should not be able to opt out even against their parents wishes. As the UK courts have held that "Parental right yields to the child’s right to make his own decisions when he reaches a sufficient understanding and intelligence to be capable of making up his own mind on the matter requiring decision."
If the child meets Gillick competance or the Fraiser guidelines I do not see why the child should not be able to opt out even against their parents wishes. As the UK courts have held that "Parental right yields to the child’s right to make his own decisions when he reaches a sufficient understanding and intelligence to be capable of making up his own mind on the matter requiring decision."
Freedom to practice religion is part of a free society. Christianity is part of this nation's tradition and culture, it is part of this free society, atheism is not the default position in this society. A free society with a tradition and culture that includes religion is not one that ceases to do religion as its default position to acquiesce to the will of a minority of anti-religious atheists. A free society is one that respects the right of those who do not want to take part to not take part. A free society is one where parent's are not forced to have their children take part in collective acts of worship, and one where society is not forced to abandon its collective religious practictes and traditions. Freedom is not the freedom to dictate to society what it should do or what its default position should be, it is the freedom to decide what you do.
Schools are places of education, not places of worship. People at the school have the right to practise their own religion should they chose to do so, but the school itself should not be leading the worship or pushing one particular brand of religion.
I'm not arguing that religion should be banned in schools; if course it shouldn't, but I think schools need to distance themselves from religion and simply just not get involved.
And I know you think Christianity is the majority and atheism is a minority, and it may well be, but in my personal experience I know far more atheists than any religious people put together. As I've already said, certainly in my year at school, the majority of people were atheist or non-religious as could be seen by the sheer number of people who refused to bow their head and close their eyes during a collective prayer.
Anyway, my point is that atheists are no longer a tiny minority so you cannot treat us like we're a bunch of fringe nutcases anymore. The non-religious demographic is growing by the year. It won't be long before Christians in the UK are a minority with atheists and the non-religious (and possibly Muslims...) making up the majority
Schools are places of education, not places of worship. People at the school have the right to practise their own religion should they chose to do so, but the school itself should not be leading the worship or pushing one particular brand of religion.
I'm not arguing that religion should be banned in schools; if course it shouldn't, but I think schools need to distance themselves from religion and simply just not get involved.
And I know you think Christianity is the majority and atheism is a minority, and it may well be, but in my personal experience I know far more atheists than any religious people put together. As I've already said, certainly in my year at school, the majority of people were atheist or non-religious as could be seen by the sheer number of people who refused to bow their head and close their eyes during a collective prayer.
Anyway, my point is that atheists are no longer a tiny minority so you cannot treat us like we're a bunch of fringe nutcases anymore. The non-religious demographic is growing by the year. It won't be long before Christians in the UK are a minority with atheists and the non-religious (and possibly Muslims...) making up the majority
same as when i was at school most of the kids were athiest.:cool:
And every year more people become atheist.:cool:
and there's nothing the government and the religious people do about it.:cool:
Oh, so school subjects should be only those that have a direct practical application? Do we get rid of sport, music, history etc? After all, most people don't use those subjects in their everyday lives. What a dreary, utilitarian view you seem to have of education. Christianity informs our cultural history and I have no problem with an element of spirituality being taught in schools.
Which "element of spirituality" do you think should be taught, and how?
If religion is to be taught in schools, it should be apologetically as something which was useful in the days when we knew hardly anything about the way the world works. It should be mentioned that some adults, even today, just can't cope with the thought of their own mortality, or have never had the opportunity to think for themselves, with regard to the subject of their religion.
I went to a C of E school and they had assemblies with prayers and hymns. I am agnostic but I don't understand why these anti religious people who call their selves atheists are against people talking about religion at a Christian school. They say that religious schools do better but then non religious people who are there because they get better results but want things changed.
Bible stories are stories and hymns are songs, I don't see what is the problem with telling stories and songs in an assembly.
They are stories and songs which have no relevance today, except as parts of the ancient concepts which created them. Giving them a special place in assembly gives them a weight which they certainly do not deserve.
And I know you think Christianity is the majority and atheism is a minority, and it may well be, but in my personal experience I know far more atheists than any religious people put together. As I've already said, certainly in my year at school, the majority of people were atheist or non-religious as could be seen by the sheer number of people who refused to bow their head and close their eyes during a collective prayer.
Anyway, my point is that atheists are no longer a tiny minority so you cannot treat us like we're a bunch of fringe nutcases anymore. The non-religious demographic is growing by the year. It won't be long before Christians in the UK are a minority with atheists and the non-religious (and possibly Muslims...) making up the majority
Most people are not devoutly religious in the UK few people attend church every Sunday or have their children say grace before meals and prays before bed. But, most people in my experience do not find the religious trappings of society objectionable.
Be that school collective act of worship of a Christian or generally Christian style, or Christmas carols and the school nativity play, or church weddings and funeral services, or swearing on the Bible in court. Or the religious opening of parliament, royal weddings and state funerals. Our society has lots of religious trappings, that despite most people not being devoutly religious they do not find objectionable, and may even enjoy. The collective act of worship is supposed to be joyous.
same as when i was at school most of the kids were athiest.:cool:
And every year more people become atheist.:cool:
and there's nothing the government and the religious people do about it.:cool:
Yes I do make it fun as much as is possible, we're going to have a water relay race on the last week with the objective to understand that children in some countries carry water on a daily basis because they have to. We will then celebrate how lucky we are by having a water fight
Well that's great. Its important that children learn to appreciate how lucky they are and learn about the wider world and those who are not so fortunate. What on earth does any of that have to do with religion though? Its human geography isn't it?
Or after you've let them all have fun in the water fight are you going to hold a class discussion about why an all powerful God would choose to provide British kids with readily available clean drinking water while at the same time allowing 3rd world children to die from a lack of clean water that He could easily porivide them with if He wanted to?
Most people are not devoutly religious in the UK few people attend church every Sunday or have their children say grace before meals and prays before bed. But, most people in my experience do not find the religious trappings of society objectionable.
Be that school collective act of worship of a Christian or generally Christian style, or Christmas carols and the school nativity play, or church weddings and funeral services, or swearing on the Bible in court. Or the religious opening of parliament, royal weddings and state funerals. Our society has lots of religious trappings, that despite most people not being devoutly religious they do not find objectionable, and may even enjoy. The collective act of worship is supposed to be joyous.
What you say is true. Christianity does play a part in many of our cultural traditions like Weddings, Christmas etc, and even as a non believer I have to accept that it does help enhance them. And if it was something that schools did every once in a while, like a carol concert or Easter service that wouldn't be a problem IMO.
This is about schools holding a religious service every day though which makes it seem a far more intrinsic part of school, like maths and english lessons. If as you say most people in the UK are not particularly religious anyway it does seem rather odd that we should have these daily acts of worship in schools doesn't it?
I'm happy to leave that up to suitably qualified teachers - y'know, like we do for all the other subjects...
But spirituality is such a broad church, and adherents tend to promote their own flavour to the exclusion of all others. I presume teachers are tested. Those teaching music would be expected to be able to play an instrument. How are spiritual capabilities tested?
Kids should be taught to be very wary of claims of spiritual understanding.
You can generally tell whether someone is religious when they bow their heads and close their eyes during compulsory prayer. The vast majority of people in my year at school didn't.
You can generally tell whether someone is religious when they bow their heads and close their eyes during compulsory prayer. The vast majority of people in my year at school didn't.
If you did that at my school you'll be in big trouble with the very horrible headmaster
he would stop you from going out at break time>:(
he classed it as being disrespectful to the believers,but he's just a nasty person that wanted for his views on the non believers
If you did that at my school you'll be in big trouble with the very horrible headmaster
he would stop you from going out at break time>:(
he classed it as being disrespectful to the believers,but he's just a nasty person that wanted for his views on the non believers
Sounds terrible. There was a bloke on this thread saying that he would ban his future kids from religious activities, tell them that religion was all rubbish and then emotionally blackmail them if they persisted in believing. Oh wait, that was you...
Sounds terrible. There was a bloke on this thread saying that he would ban his future kids from religious activities, tell them that religion was all rubbish and then emotionally blackmail them if they persisted in believing. Oh wait, that was you...
Haha excellent
Sadly we all get the picture that he is very ignorant and where he knocks religion and saying don't believe he is just like them by spreading the word by saying do not believe and your be a better person sigh!
Sounds terrible. There was a bloke on this thread saying that he would ban his future kids from religious activities, tell them that religion was all rubbish and then emotionally blackmail them if they persisted in believing. Oh wait, that was you...
and religious people make their kids go to church of what's the different?
And blackmail them into believing?
Comments
Luckily parents already have the right to opt their kids out of RE and worship. They just don't do it - except for Jehovas Witnesses who generally do.
Organised religion is increasingly becoming only relevant to a minority though. There is no real need or demand for collective acts of worship.
A child is the responsibility of their parents. It is perfectly acceptable for parents to dictate what a child does, or is and is not permitted to do, as long as the parents are not neglecting or abusing their child.
This may be true for very young children, but surely older children are quite capable of thinking for themselves and making their own decisions about certain matters? I can't think why a sensible teenager who happens to be an atheist should be forced to take part in an act of worship, for example!
Banning collective acts of worship or even religious faith from schools which is what some posters want is a different ball game, from people and schools choosing to opt out of taking part in or having chollectiv acts of worship or society choosing to change the default position via its elected government to opt in rather than opt out.
There really shouldn't be any worship in schools, to opt in or out of. We're just so used to it happening that we're blinded to the daftness of it.
Schools are places of education, not places of worship. People at the school have the right to practise their own religion should they chose to do so, but the school itself should not be leading the worship or pushing one particular brand of religion.
I'm not arguing that religion should be banned in schools; if course it shouldn't, but I think schools need to distance themselves from religion and simply just not get involved.
And I know you think Christianity is the majority and atheism is a minority, and it may well be, but in my personal experience I know far more atheists than any religious people put together. As I've already said, certainly in my year at school, the majority of people were atheist or non-religious as could be seen by the sheer number of people who refused to bow their head and close their eyes during a collective prayer.
Anyway, my point is that atheists are no longer a tiny minority so you cannot treat us like we're a bunch of fringe nutcases anymore. The non-religious demographic is growing by the year. It won't be long before Christians in the UK are a minority with atheists and the non-religious (and possibly Muslims...) making up the majority
same as when i was at school most of the kids were athiest.:cool:
And every year more people become atheist.:cool:
and there's nothing the government and the religious people do about it.:cool:
If religion is to be taught in schools, it should be apologetically as something which was useful in the days when we knew hardly anything about the way the world works. It should be mentioned that some adults, even today, just can't cope with the thought of their own mortality, or have never had the opportunity to think for themselves, with regard to the subject of their religion.
They are stories and songs which have no relevance today, except as parts of the ancient concepts which created them. Giving them a special place in assembly gives them a weight which they certainly do not deserve.
Be that school collective act of worship of a Christian or generally Christian style, or Christmas carols and the school nativity play, or church weddings and funeral services, or swearing on the Bible in court. Or the religious opening of parliament, royal weddings and state funerals. Our society has lots of religious trappings, that despite most people not being devoutly religious they do not find objectionable, and may even enjoy. The collective act of worship is supposed to be joyous.
Did you ask them all ?
Well that's great. Its important that children learn to appreciate how lucky they are and learn about the wider world and those who are not so fortunate. What on earth does any of that have to do with religion though? Its human geography isn't it?
Or after you've let them all have fun in the water fight are you going to hold a class discussion about why an all powerful God would choose to provide British kids with readily available clean drinking water while at the same time allowing 3rd world children to die from a lack of clean water that He could easily porivide them with if He wanted to?
I'm happy to leave that up to suitably qualified teachers - y'know, like we do for all the other subjects...
What is spirituality and how does one qualify in it?
What you say is true. Christianity does play a part in many of our cultural traditions like Weddings, Christmas etc, and even as a non believer I have to accept that it does help enhance them. And if it was something that schools did every once in a while, like a carol concert or Easter service that wouldn't be a problem IMO.
This is about schools holding a religious service every day though which makes it seem a far more intrinsic part of school, like maths and english lessons. If as you say most people in the UK are not particularly religious anyway it does seem rather odd that we should have these daily acts of worship in schools doesn't it?
Kids should be taught to be very wary of claims of spiritual understanding.
You can generally tell whether someone is religious when they bow their heads and close their eyes during compulsory prayer. The vast majority of people in my year at school didn't.
If you did that at my school you'll be in big trouble with the very horrible headmaster
he would stop you from going out at break time>:(
he classed it as being disrespectful to the believers,but he's just a nasty person that wanted for his views on the non believers
You do not speak for my child so don't bring other's into your distaste for religion!
Still why don't we go the whole hog and cancel Xmas and Easter!
Bet your be back on here complaining that you wished there was a Xmas and Easter because?
Sounds terrible. There was a bloke on this thread saying that he would ban his future kids from religious activities, tell them that religion was all rubbish and then emotionally blackmail them if they persisted in believing. Oh wait, that was you...
Haha excellent
Sadly we all get the picture that he is very ignorant and where he knocks religion and saying don't believe he is just like them by spreading the word by saying do not believe and your be a better person sigh!
and religious people make their kids go to church of what's the different?
And blackmail them into believing?