The cake was for the International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia where ' Andrew Muir Mayor of North Down invited Queer Space to Bangor Castle on Sat 17 May.'
If a black man went into the baker and asked to put a message on a cake saying "support fenmale circumcision" and was refused ,does that make the baker racist?
No, but going by some peoples responses on this thread the answer will be yes.
The baker wouldn't be racist but would be breaking the law by not making the cake. Same principle applies.
Whilst I do think there is something slightly strange about ordering the cake from the Newtownabbey shop and then going to a Bangor bakers when the first shop said no because the two places are very far apart. The cake was most definitely for a real event.
Well I guess it depends on where the people doing the ordering are... if person A lives in Newtownabbey and failed to get it, then person B, who lives in Bangor may have said... 'Oh I'll get it from my bakers then'. The people in this group are all volunteers and I see this sort of thing happening easily. I have picked up stationary for my group in Birmingham because I happened to be working there for a few days.
If a black man went into the baker and asked to put a message on a cake saying "support fenmale circumcision" and was refused ,does that make the baker racist?
No, but going by some peoples responses on this thread the answer will be yes.
What is racist about that? Female circumcision has nothing to do with ethnicity. There are other terms, you know. Bigoted, prejudiced, etc. It doesn't apply to your scenario, though.
Why do people drag racism into this sort of thing, anyway? It's bizarre.
The campaigner got the response he wanted so where's the offense?
You don't know if that is the case however, do you. You are supposing it because they are a campaigning group... but there is no evidence I can see here that they targetted the bakery in that way.
Unless the message in itself is illegal then yes it would. Same as if a church went to a bakery owned by a gay person and wanted a slogan of 'support traditional marriage only' the bakery would be breaking the law by refusing to make the cake because of deep convictions and support for equal marriage.
Gay man places order of a cake with a bakery decorated as Bert and Ernie with the inscription 'support gay marriage' on it. Christian bakery owner refuses to fill the order. Equality commission now threatening legal action unless bakery accepts the order.
I don't oppose gay marriage but I support people to have their own views about what is acceptable or offensive to them. I could not demand a halal bakery supply me with bacon for reasons of belief.
The gay lobby can be a petulant lot at times. Tolerance works both ways guys.
Unless the message in itself is illegal then yes it would. Same as if a church went to a bakery owned by a gay person and wanted a slogan of 'support traditional marriage only' the bakery would be breaking the law by refusing to make the cake because of deep convictions and support for equal marriage.
Female circumcision is illegal so there would be no trouble in a baker refusing such a message.
Do you have anything to support your view that refusing certain messages would be in breach in the law? Refusing customers themselves sure, but I suspect it's not so clear cut when it comes to actively promoting a certain political ideal through your product.
What is racist about that? Female circumcision has nothing to do with ethnicity. There are other terms, you know. Bigoted, prejudiced, etc. It doesn't apply to your scenario, though.
Why do people drag racism into this sort of thing, anyway? It's bizarre.
Not really - someone's skin colour is an unchosen and benign attribute... just like sexuality. If people don't think discriminating against people with one such attribute is right, why do they think it acceptable to discriminate against people with a different attribute that is just as unchosen and benign?
I agree female circumcision is a bad example - but in the past some countries did not allow black people to marry white people... yet would everyone who supported the bakery's position in the case we are discussing support it if a black campaign group wanted a cake saying 'support mixed race marriage'. I suspect many would not, (Not all, because I accept that some people take a libertarian view here and think that any form of discrimination should be dealt with by market forces rather than the law).
Female circumcision is illegal so there would be no trouble in a baker refusing such a message.
Do you have anything to support your view that refusing certain messages would be in breach in the law? Refusing customers themselves sure, but I suspect it's not so clear cut when it comes to actively promoting a certain political ideal through your product.
...I agree female circumcision is a bad example - but in the past some countries did not allow black people to marry white people... yet would everyone who supported the bakery's position in the case we are discussing support it if a black campaign group wanted a cake saying 'support mixed race marriage'. I suspect many would not, (Not all, because I accept that some people take a libertarian view here and think that any form of discrimination should be dealt with by market forces rather than the law).
I think you're point is a bit straw man - mixed race marriages are legal in Northern Ireland, whilst same sex marriages are not.
I take it you are referring to that play, which did go ahead.
I know Newtownabbey very well and it is a good place in most ways.
No just based on personal opinion. I was looking to buy a house there a couple of years ago so was actively asking peoples opinions about the area. I know a few people that live there and they didn't seem to like it much, it just didn't suit the type of people they are but the houses were cheaper. But hey who am I to talk I live in East Belfast.
You don't know if that is the case however, do you. You are supposing it because they are a campaigning group... but there is no evidence I can see here that they targetted the bakery in that way.
No more than you know it isn't. We're all being equally speculative on these threads.
As someone who fully supports the right of anyone to love whoever the hell they want, it does seem to me that there is a growing pattern of campaigners going out to set people up so they can be flamboyantly offended and score some publicity for the cause.
While I find the cause commendable I find the tactic objectionable both in their "witchunty" nature and in that the suspicion they raise is cumulative in subsequent cases.
I think you're point is a bit straw man - mixed race marriages are legal in Northern Ireland, whilst same sex marriages are not.
It's a hypothetical example to demonstrate that some people accept discrimination for one unchosen and benign characteristic is wrong but not another. That's why some people try to justify discrimination because gay people choose to be gay (or act on it) - something demonstrated already in this thread. They know that they are prejudiced against gay people just as much as a racist is prejudiced against a person with a different skin colour... they just cannot bear to admit that it is the same kind of discrimination. Who wants to be lumped in with racists after all... but if the cap fits...
The cake was for the International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia where ' Andrew Muir Mayor of North Down invited Queer Space to Bangor Castle on Sat 17 May.'
You can see the cake on the table...
Oh right - thanks for that. Shows that there was a genuine reason for the wording on the cake.
No he didn't. Lets not be so naive here. The guy deliberately targeted a Christian coffee shop who as head of a gay rights movement he would have known would stir up trouble and then asked them to put writing on the cake which he knew would deliberately cause offence to them all so he cause prove a point.
It really wouldn't surprise me if there wasn't actually any need for the cake at all and it was all done as part of an elaborate set up in order to make an example of the shop owners and to gain publicity.
Interesting theory, but we now know that's not the case.
It is a political issue, not discrimination. Would a gay baker be obliged to fulfil an order for a cake with an anti-gay marriage slogan? Would any baker be compelled to bake a pro-Sinn Fein, al-qaeda, ISIS, UKIP or Vladimir Putin cake? Of course not.
No more than you know it isn't. We're all being equally speculative on these threads.
As someone who fully supports the right of anyone to love whoever the hell they want, it does seem to me that there is a growing pattern of campaigners going out to set people up so they can be flamboyantly offended and score some publicity for the cause.
While I find the cause commendable I find the tactic objectionable both in their "witchunty" nature and in that the suspicion they raise is cumulative in subsequent cases.
No I don't... but I didn't make a statement saying so... the poster did.
I don't agree with setting people up either - but unless there is conclusive evidence then I certainly wouldn't say 'they did xyz'.
I'd like to see the evidence for your view, I really would...
No more than you know it isn't. We're all being equally speculative on these threads.
As someone who fully supports the right of anyone to love whoever the hell they want, it does seem to me that there is a growing pattern of campaigners going out to set people up so they can be flamboyantly offended and score some publicity for the cause.
Do you have any examples of this? Haven't noticed any such "growing pattern" myself.
Comments
They accepted the order, which suggests the planned image was licensed.
It's irrelevant, anyway, because they reneged on the order with no objection to the image.
I know exactly what it was for...
http://www.queerspace.org.uk/galleries/idahot-in-bangor/
The cake was for the International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia where ' Andrew Muir Mayor of North Down invited Queer Space to Bangor Castle on Sat 17 May.'
You can see the cake on the table...
I take it you are referring to that play, which did go ahead.
I know Newtownabbey very well and it is a good place in most ways.
The baker wouldn't be racist but would be breaking the law by not making the cake. Same principle applies.
Well I guess it depends on where the people doing the ordering are... if person A lives in Newtownabbey and failed to get it, then person B, who lives in Bangor may have said... 'Oh I'll get it from my bakers then'. The people in this group are all volunteers and I see this sort of thing happening easily. I have picked up stationary for my group in Birmingham because I happened to be working there for a few days.
Why do people drag racism into this sort of thing, anyway? It's bizarre.
You don't know if that is the case however, do you. You are supposing it because they are a campaigning group... but there is no evidence I can see here that they targetted the bakery in that way.
Unless the message in itself is illegal then yes it would. Same as if a church went to a bakery owned by a gay person and wanted a slogan of 'support traditional marriage only' the bakery would be breaking the law by refusing to make the cake because of deep convictions and support for equal marriage.
At the present time that isn't a 'fact' at all, and there's certainly a strong possibility that they haven't actually done so.
Gay lobby?
Jesus wept.
Religion has no place in business.
Do you have anything to support your view that refusing certain messages would be in breach in the law? Refusing customers themselves sure, but I suspect it's not so clear cut when it comes to actively promoting a certain political ideal through your product.
Not really - someone's skin colour is an unchosen and benign attribute... just like sexuality. If people don't think discriminating against people with one such attribute is right, why do they think it acceptable to discriminate against people with a different attribute that is just as unchosen and benign?
I agree female circumcision is a bad example - but in the past some countries did not allow black people to marry white people... yet would everyone who supported the bakery's position in the case we are discussing support it if a black campaign group wanted a cake saying 'support mixed race marriage'. I suspect many would not, (Not all, because I accept that some people take a libertarian view here and think that any form of discrimination should be dealt with by market forces rather than the law).
Yup, we are a backwards lot. Religious dogma reigns supreme.
I think you're point is a bit straw man - mixed race marriages are legal in Northern Ireland, whilst same sex marriages are not.
No just based on personal opinion. I was looking to buy a house there a couple of years ago so was actively asking peoples opinions about the area. I know a few people that live there and they didn't seem to like it much, it just didn't suit the type of people they are but the houses were cheaper. But hey who am I to talk I live in East Belfast.
No more than you know it isn't. We're all being equally speculative on these threads.
As someone who fully supports the right of anyone to love whoever the hell they want, it does seem to me that there is a growing pattern of campaigners going out to set people up so they can be flamboyantly offended and score some publicity for the cause.
While I find the cause commendable I find the tactic objectionable both in their "witchunty" nature and in that the suspicion they raise is cumulative in subsequent cases.
It's a hypothetical example to demonstrate that some people accept discrimination for one unchosen and benign characteristic is wrong but not another. That's why some people try to justify discrimination because gay people choose to be gay (or act on it) - something demonstrated already in this thread. They know that they are prejudiced against gay people just as much as a racist is prejudiced against a person with a different skin colour... they just cannot bear to admit that it is the same kind of discrimination. Who wants to be lumped in with racists after all... but if the cap fits...
Oh right - thanks for that. Shows that there was a genuine reason for the wording on the cake.
Interesting theory, but we now know that's not the case.
No I don't... but I didn't make a statement saying so... the poster did.
I don't agree with setting people up either - but unless there is conclusive evidence then I certainly wouldn't say 'they did xyz'.
I'd like to see the evidence for your view, I really would...