Some mothers just don't realise that the temperature in a car with the doors (or back doors) shut will be incredibly magnified when the car is stood still.
there`s nothing "faux" about my feelings on leaving babies alone in a car or while you pop next door, nor pious, i managed to bring up my own four without being so irresponsible and they, in turn are doing the same. it ISN`T difficult to consider your child`s safety and put it before your own needs, wants, habits or desires and if it is then you shouldn`t be having them in the first place.
*that`s a general you not a personal shot.
Weirdly enough I managed to raise two children (13 & 16) with a third aged almost two without them being kidnapped, suddenly becoming violently ill, spontaneously combusting(?) or getting hit by an asteroid (or whatever spurious concern you have) while they were out of sight.
When they were babies I would on occasion be downstairs while they were upstairs *gasp*. I would put the rubbish out while they were sleeping or even while they were awake.
But then I'm not a hysterical, neurotic parent so I suppose that's why...
Weirdly enough I managed to raise two children (13 & 16) with a third aged almost two without them being kidnapped, suddenly becoming violently ill, spontaneously combusting(?) or getting hit by an asteroid (or whatever spurious concern you have) while they were out of sight.
When they were babies I would on occasion be downstairs while they were upstairs *gasp*. I would put the rubbish out while they were sleeping or even while they were awake.
But then I'm not a hysterical, neurotic parent so I suppose that's why...
again, i`m referring to popping next door for a cup of sugar/the garage leaving the child in the car/outside shops etc if that`s hysterical, neurotic parenting then i`m proud to have been thus.
spurious concerns, really? if that`s really what you think then perhaps your success was more luck than design.
Perhaps I don't have enough compassion, I cannot fathom posters who've said, "no harm done", "I bet she won't do it again", "unnecessary fuss over something small," (no pun intended.)
I'd like to see the child taken from her, and given to a couple who would really care for it, and show it the love and protection that all children should have.
Furthermore, if the law could do it, I'd like the wretched woman banged up for 99 years, and when she collapses in the dock, crying "I can't do 99 years, I'm only 26!" or whatever, to hear the judge say, "Do as much as you can."
Get a grip! Yes she shouldn't have done it but based on leaving the child in the car (I always waited in the car when I was younger) she shouldn't have it taken away.
Not sure how this discussion has moved from discussing leaving a baby in a car on a hot day to go into a supermarket to whether it's ok to leave their side, ever at all, with hysterical and neurotic thrown in.
I see a big difference between leaving a child safe, but unattended, at home while you get on with something in another room, to leaving them in a hot car while you go shopping. I even think there's a difference between popping in to pay for petrol and going into a supermarket, even for just a few items.
I wasn't always attached to mine; sure I would've got nothing done otherwise. I don't think many think you must put your life on hold for what ifs but taking your child into the supermarket is not such a massive inconvenience so to me what the lady did was incredibly stupid and unnecessary. It's hardly wrapping them up in cotton wool or neurotic taking the baby in with you. It's just common sense.
Some mothers just don't realise that the temperature in a car with the doors (or back doors) shut will be incredibly magnified when the car is stood still.
That's one point often missed in media reports. The new Mail article says "Worried shoppers raised the alarm after seeing the baby girl alone in a shopping centre car park - as lunchtime temperatures hit 25C.", but misses the point because 25 deg C isn't the problem; it can happen at much lower outside temperatures than that.
Air temperatures in a stationary car in bright spring or summer sunshine, unless all the windows are left open, will quickly reach 40 or even 50 degrees celsius i.e. Death Valley temperatures. This can happen well within the time taken for a parent to complete even a fairly short visit to the shops, and if the sun falls upon anyone inside the car, their clothing and skin can become even hotter than that.
An adult will feel hot and sweaty in such temperatures but can survive it for quite a long time due to their large body mass and ability to sweat some of it off - but babies and small children heat up very quickly due to their small body mass. They cannot sweat as much of it away as an adult, and will get heat stroke way before an adult would... and if left alone they may die.
Every media report on the subject should ram this point home again and again as it seems that some parents are still oblivious to these basic biological facts!
I was at the petrol station a few weeks ago and the weather wasn't hot. I saw a woman wake her baby and take the child into the shop to pay. I was well annoyed that she disturbed a sleeping, peaceful baby for a matter of minutes when all she needed to do was to lock the car.
again, i`m referring to popping next door for a cup of sugar/the garage leaving the child in the car/outside shops etc if that`s hysterical, neurotic parenting then i`m proud to have been thus.
spurious concerns, really? if that`s really what you think then perhaps your success was more luck than design.
I was at the petrol station a few weeks ago and the weather wasn't hot. I saw a woman wake her baby and take the child into the shop to pay. I was well annoyed that she disturbed a sleeping, peaceful baby for a matter of minutes when all she needed to do was to lock the car.
Yes but what if the car was stolen (after being locked), what if another car drove into it, what if someone sprayed petrol all over it then lit a match, what if the sleeping baby unstrapped itself, released the handbrake and rolled the car down a hill.
Won't someone please think of the children!!!!!!
[/maudeflanders]
Some mothers just don't realise that the temperature in a car with the doors (or back doors) shut will be incredibly magnified when the car is stood still.
What I don't get is how can they not realise? Anyone who drives or gets lifts knows how boiling hot cars can get when they've been parked for even a short time in the summer. I have to open all the doors and stand around for a while before I can even get into the car. How stupid and utterly thoughtless must these people be?
Not sure how this discussion has moved from discussing leaving a baby in a car on a hot day to go into a supermarket to whether it's ok to leave their side, ever at all, with hysterical and neurotic thrown in.
I see a big difference between leaving a child safe, but unattended, at home while you get on with something in another room, to leaving them in a hot car while you go shopping. I even think there's a difference between popping in to pay for petrol and going into a supermarket, even for just a few items.
I wasn't always attached to mine; sure I would've got nothing done otherwise. I don't think many think you must put your life on hold for what ifs but taking your child into the supermarket is not such a massive inconvenience so to me what the lady did was incredibly stupid and unnecessary. It's hardly wrapping them up in cotton wool or neurotic taking the baby in with you. It's just common sense.
Yes, there are scales involved, and never leavng your child unattended somewhat treats all points on the scale as the same level in a way.
So there's...
1) At home - safe - attended (in a cot watched over)
2) At home - unsafe - attended (in the kitchen during cooking but parent keeping an eye out)
3) At home - safe - unattended (upstairs asleep whilst parent is cooking)
4) At home - unsafe - unattended (parent leaves child with cooking)
5) Outside - safe - attended (in a shop with parent)
6) Outside - unsafe - attended (in a hot car but parent keeping an eye out)
7) Outside - safe - unattended (playing in a soft-play area out of eyesight)
8) Outside - unsafe - unattended (out in the street alone)
Of these, I think the ones combining unsafe and unattended are neglectful. 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6 would all be fine for me. I think it's worth pointing out to the uber-cautious people that sometimes you increase the risk to your child by keeping them with you!
i`ll go with the advice of rospa and continue being hysterical and neurotic.
Young children should never be left alone inside a vehicle, even when the engine is turned
off.... RoSPA knows of cases where children have died
after being left unattended in vehicles – two deaths were due to an electric window, and two
deaths were due to fires caused by children playing with matches left in the vehicle.
There have also been several cases of a car being stolen while, unknown to the thief, a child
was still inside
I completely agree with him. I would never leave very young children/babies in a car with the windows down when it's very warm. It's ridiculous. They have to be a bit dim to not realise that the temperature's going to be magnified. A car with its windows down when it's very warm is basically a green house.
call me old fashioned but i`ve never been one for "it`ll never happen to me" when it concerns child safety.
Yeah, I'd rather have a baby that was with me totally safe than take even a very small risk like going in a shop to pay for something while the baby was left in the car.
What I don't get is how can they not realise? Anyone who drives or gets lifts knows how boiling hot cars can get when they've been parked for even a short time in the summer. I have to open all the doors and stand around for a while before I can even get into the car. How stupid and utterly thoughtless must these people be?
I was at the petrol station a few weeks ago and the weather wasn't hot. I saw a woman wake her baby and take the child into the shop to pay. I was well annoyed that she disturbed a sleeping, peaceful baby for a matter of minutes when all she needed to do was to lock the car.
These younger women really have no idea.
Her child. Her decision.
I'm in the ''neurotic mother'' category as I would do the same.
Remember
• Never leave your baby or
young child home alone, not even for a few minutes, regardless
of whether they are sleeping or awake.
The risks and dangers are too great.
Yes, there are scales involved, and never leavng your child unattended somewhat treats all points on the scale as the same level in a way.
So there's...
1) At home - safe - attended (in a cot watched over)
2) At home - unsafe - attended (in the kitchen during cooking but parent keeping an eye out)
3) At home - safe - unattended (upstairs asleep whilst parent is cooking)
4) At home - unsafe - unattended (parent leaves child with cooking)
5) Outside - safe - attended (in a shop with parent)
6) Outside - unsafe - attended (in a hot car but parent keeping an eye out)
7) Outside - safe - unattended (playing in a soft-play area out of eyesight)
8) Outside - unsafe - unattended (out in the street alone)
Of these, I think the ones combining unsafe and unattended are neglectful. 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6 would all be fine for me. I think it's worth pointing out to the uber-cautious people that sometimes you increase the risk to your child by keeping them with you!
What age are you talking about with number 8 though? I wouldn't say that letting older children (age 5+ depending on the area and the maturity of the child) play out is necessarily neglectful.
And out of interest, why would number 7 not be ok for you?
From that list number 2 and number 4 are the ones that I wouldn't do... My kitchen is tiny and having kids in there while cooking would be dangerous even with me in there.
Not sure how this discussion has moved from discussing leaving a baby in a car on a hot day to go into a supermarket to whether it's ok to leave their side, ever at all, with hysterical and neurotic thrown in.
I see a big difference between leaving a child safe, but unattended, at home while you get on with something in another room, to leaving them in a hot car while you go shopping. I even think there's a difference between popping in to pay for petrol and going into a supermarket, even for just a few items.
I wasn't always attached to mine; sure I would've got nothing done otherwise. I don't think many think you must put your life on hold for what ifs but taking your child into the supermarket is not such a massive inconvenience so to me what the lady did was incredibly stupid and unnecessary. It's hardly wrapping them up in cotton wool or neurotic taking the baby in with you. It's just common sense.
I completely agree with you. There seems to be the usual DS amateur dramatics thrown in but I am with you that there is a huge difference between leaving your baby downstairs in their chair or cot while you have a bath and leaving your baby in the car while you go shopping.
This really isn't a black and white 'never leave your baby for a second' argument. There are a million shades of grey in between but I personally don't think leaving your baby alone in the car to go to a supermarket, even for a few minutes, is acceptable
call me old fashioned but i`ve never been one for "it`ll never happen to me" when it concerns child safety.
Do you not drive your kids about in the car? I think if you check the stats, you'll find that to be more dangerous than leaving them in the car while paying for petrol. They are at more risk on the journey itself. In fact, you probably expose your kids to things that have a higher risk than you might think - everyday things.
Yes but what if the car was stolen (after being locked), what if another car drove into it, what if someone sprayed petrol all over it then lit a match, what if the sleeping baby unstrapped itself, released the handbrake and rolled the car down a hill.
Won't someone please think of the children!!!!!!
[/maudeflanders]
No offence but you're coming across as being paranoid.
Do you not drive your kids about in the car? I think if you check the stats, you'll find that to be more dangerous than leaving them in the car while paying for petrol. They are at more risk on the journey itself. In fact, you probably expose your kids to things that have a higher risk than you might think - everyday things.
i don`t drive and my kids are all adults with children of their own.
either way i`ll still choose child safety advice from rospa and nspcc over that of someone careless enough to disregard it.
spurious concerns, really? if that`s really what you think then perhaps your success was more luck than design.
I must say, I think it's pretty rude to suggest that people have only managed to get their kids this far by accident. Can I ask how much time you spent with your kids was spent with nothing of note happening to them at all?
What age are you talking about with number 8 though? I wouldn't say that letting older children (age 5+ depending on the area and the maturity of the child) play out is necessarily neglectful.
And out of interest, why would number 7 not be ok for you?
From that list number 2 and number 4 are the ones that I wouldn't do... My kitchen is tiny and having kids in there while cooking would be dangerous even with me in there.
Well, there you go, it's all subjective really, isn't it! I admit the child I was think of in 8 was a toddler, 4 or younger. From 3 upwards I'd play outside with my sister in the garden (in the middle of the countryside), from maybe 5ish we were allowed to stray further out onto the hill.
For 7, I'd say the lack of immediate risk (the thing the child is actually doing) wouldn't be enough to override the increased risk of them being unobserved by a responsible adult. Not so much a fear of abduction, but the knowledge that even very small kids can be escape artists (my niece followed me in this by being the first child to ever break out of her nursery - they were actually watching her at the time but we're laughing because they didn't think she could do it).
Comments
Jeez what is wrong with people ??
Weirdly enough I managed to raise two children (13 & 16) with a third aged almost two without them being kidnapped, suddenly becoming violently ill, spontaneously combusting(?) or getting hit by an asteroid (or whatever spurious concern you have) while they were out of sight.
When they were babies I would on occasion be downstairs while they were upstairs *gasp*. I would put the rubbish out while they were sleeping or even while they were awake.
But then I'm not a hysterical, neurotic parent so I suppose that's why...
again, i`m referring to popping next door for a cup of sugar/the garage leaving the child in the car/outside shops etc if that`s hysterical, neurotic parenting then i`m proud to have been thus.
spurious concerns, really? if that`s really what you think then perhaps your success was more luck than design.
Get a grip! Yes she shouldn't have done it but based on leaving the child in the car (I always waited in the car when I was younger) she shouldn't have it taken away.
I see a big difference between leaving a child safe, but unattended, at home while you get on with something in another room, to leaving them in a hot car while you go shopping. I even think there's a difference between popping in to pay for petrol and going into a supermarket, even for just a few items.
I wasn't always attached to mine; sure I would've got nothing done otherwise. I don't think many think you must put your life on hold for what ifs but taking your child into the supermarket is not such a massive inconvenience so to me what the lady did was incredibly stupid and unnecessary. It's hardly wrapping them up in cotton wool or neurotic taking the baby in with you. It's just common sense.
That's one point often missed in media reports. The new Mail article says "Worried shoppers raised the alarm after seeing the baby girl alone in a shopping centre car park - as lunchtime temperatures hit 25C.", but misses the point because 25 deg C isn't the problem; it can happen at much lower outside temperatures than that.
Air temperatures in a stationary car in bright spring or summer sunshine, unless all the windows are left open, will quickly reach 40 or even 50 degrees celsius i.e. Death Valley temperatures. This can happen well within the time taken for a parent to complete even a fairly short visit to the shops, and if the sun falls upon anyone inside the car, their clothing and skin can become even hotter than that.
An adult will feel hot and sweaty in such temperatures but can survive it for quite a long time due to their large body mass and ability to sweat some of it off - but babies and small children heat up very quickly due to their small body mass. They cannot sweat as much of it away as an adult, and will get heat stroke way before an adult would... and if left alone they may die.
Every media report on the subject should ram this point home again and again as it seems that some parents are still oblivious to these basic biological facts!
These younger women really have no idea.
Nope, just a pragmatic approach to parenting.
Won't someone please think of the children!!!!!!
[/maudeflanders]
What I don't get is how can they not realise? Anyone who drives or gets lifts knows how boiling hot cars can get when they've been parked for even a short time in the summer. I have to open all the doors and stand around for a while before I can even get into the car. How stupid and utterly thoughtless must these people be?
Yes, there are scales involved, and never leavng your child unattended somewhat treats all points on the scale as the same level in a way.
So there's...
1) At home - safe - attended (in a cot watched over)
2) At home - unsafe - attended (in the kitchen during cooking but parent keeping an eye out)
3) At home - safe - unattended (upstairs asleep whilst parent is cooking)
4) At home - unsafe - unattended (parent leaves child with cooking)
5) Outside - safe - attended (in a shop with parent)
6) Outside - unsafe - attended (in a hot car but parent keeping an eye out)
7) Outside - safe - unattended (playing in a soft-play area out of eyesight)
8) Outside - unsafe - unattended (out in the street alone)
Of these, I think the ones combining unsafe and unattended are neglectful. 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6 would all be fine for me. I think it's worth pointing out to the uber-cautious people that sometimes you increase the risk to your child by keeping them with you!
http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/advice/incarsafety/info/children_in_cars.pdf
call me old fashioned but i`ve never been one for "it`ll never happen to me" when it concerns child safety.
I completely agree with him. I would never leave very young children/babies in a car with the windows down when it's very warm. It's ridiculous. They have to be a bit dim to not realise that the temperature's going to be magnified. A car with its windows down when it's very warm is basically a green house.
Yeah, I'd rather have a baby that was with me totally safe than take even a very small risk like going in a shop to pay for something while the baby was left in the car.
It's either that or they're dim.
Her child. Her decision.
I'm in the ''neurotic mother'' category as I would do the same.
http://www.nspcc.org.uk/help-and-advice/for-parents-and-carers/positive-parenting/leaving-children-home-alone/home-alone-pdf_wdf72909.pdf
a cup of sugar can wait.
i agree zx.
What age are you talking about with number 8 though? I wouldn't say that letting older children (age 5+ depending on the area and the maturity of the child) play out is necessarily neglectful.
And out of interest, why would number 7 not be ok for you?
From that list number 2 and number 4 are the ones that I wouldn't do... My kitchen is tiny and having kids in there while cooking would be dangerous even with me in there.
I completely agree with you. There seems to be the usual DS amateur dramatics thrown in but I am with you that there is a huge difference between leaving your baby downstairs in their chair or cot while you have a bath and leaving your baby in the car while you go shopping.
This really isn't a black and white 'never leave your baby for a second' argument. There are a million shades of grey in between but I personally don't think leaving your baby alone in the car to go to a supermarket, even for a few minutes, is acceptable
Do you not drive your kids about in the car? I think if you check the stats, you'll find that to be more dangerous than leaving them in the car while paying for petrol. They are at more risk on the journey itself. In fact, you probably expose your kids to things that have a higher risk than you might think - everyday things.
No offence but you're coming across as being paranoid.
i don`t drive and my kids are all adults with children of their own.
either way i`ll still choose child safety advice from rospa and nspcc over that of someone careless enough to disregard it.
I must say, I think it's pretty rude to suggest that people have only managed to get their kids this far by accident. Can I ask how much time you spent with your kids was spent with nothing of note happening to them at all?
Well, there you go, it's all subjective really, isn't it! I admit the child I was think of in 8 was a toddler, 4 or younger. From 3 upwards I'd play outside with my sister in the garden (in the middle of the countryside), from maybe 5ish we were allowed to stray further out onto the hill.
For 7, I'd say the lack of immediate risk (the thing the child is actually doing) wouldn't be enough to override the increased risk of them being unobserved by a responsible adult. Not so much a fear of abduction, but the knowledge that even very small kids can be escape artists (my niece followed me in this by being the first child to ever break out of her nursery - they were actually watching her at the time but we're laughing because they didn't think she could do it).