Sky News round up programme on again
I remember though that Roux said that Botha's Statement, the policeman thrown off the Case, said when he got into the bedroom the duvet was on the bed.
And that's why Roux was very at pains to tell the Court ....why didn't Nel call Botha to the Stand.? If Botha had, and given a different version to the Court to that of his inital Statement --,he would have been found to be in contempt of Court and charged. So no idea what the consequences of this means ? with Botha having made a Statement that the Duvet was on the bed ??- obviously this doesn't however explain the blood trail left on the duvet and carpet.
According to Hood, ammunition is either classified as expanding or non-expanding.
Non-expanding bullets – commonly referred to as hard ammunition or full metal jackets – are usually made of lead encased in a copper coating. They are used mostly for practice and training and generally purposes other than hunting or self defence.
Hard ammunition is regarded as dangerous because it over-penetrates and if used to shoot a criminal, could easily penetrate the body and go on to hit a bystander, Hood explained.
This means that South African police are facing “a fair number of incidents” in which bystanders have been hit by bullets that had passed through targets and gone on to cause more damage.
Hood said he is currently representing a client who was accidentally shot by police who had fired at a suspect’s car. The bullet had penetrated the car and then hit his client, passing right through his head.
“He is little more than a vegetable now, in need of 24 hour care,” Hood said, explaining the impact of over-penetrating ammunition.
Expanding ammunition – popularly known as soft points or hollow points – are generally not available to the police and military in this country, but are legally available and commonly used by private firearm owners.
“It was developed to stop in the body. When it makes contact with something it starts expanding and slows down, kind of like a parachute, and is effective in taking down a target. The primary motive for its development was for US policemen who wanted to lower their liability,” Hood said.
He said there was another category of ammunition described as “frangible”. This was a bullet designed to break up immediately on impact. “If Oscar had used that type of ammunition, it would not have penetrated the door,” Hood said.
Explaining the workings of the Ranger T-type ammunition that he did use, Hood said the bullet would have struck the door and started to expand and then gone on to hit Steenkamp while expanding further.
“Theoretically speaking, her injuries would have been less severe if there had been no door,” Hood said.
He explained that the Ranger T-type brand is the new version of Black Talons – a brand of hollow point bullets taken off the market about 10 years ago. According to Hood, the Black Talons were withdrawn after a number of complaints were made by surgeons in America who had operated on criminals who had been shot with Black Talons by the police. The doctors complained that during surgery their latex gloves were being torn by the sharp bullet pieces inside their victims, exposing them to possible HIV infection.
As a result, the newer Ranger T-type brand was developed in its place.
Hood said the old Black Talons were black in colour and designed to splinter outward in sharp petals or shards. The new bullets, he said, look much the same but are designed to rather mushroom out as they expand and slow down.
Forensic investigator Chad Thomas of IRS Investigations said both The Hague and Geneva Conventions made provisions for the governing of weaponry and projectiles.
He said in essence, rounds in pistols (generally 9mm) or rifles were lead encased in copper.
He said hollow points, or “dum dums” as they are sometimes known, were outlawed for use in war and law enforcement but not for private protection.
“For self defence you can carry an array of different tipped bullets that mushroom or segment on impact,” he said.
But in America for Instance these bullets are used by Police and Army or Homeland Security...whatever they wish to call themselves.
In the UK it is actually illegal to hunt certain types of game with ammo that does not expand, for example Schedule 2 of the Deer Act [1991] prohibiting the use of any ammo other than soft nosed or hollow point bullets for the killing of deer.
Sky News round up programme on again
I remember though that Roux said that Botha's Statement, the policeman thrown off the Case, said when he got into the bedroom the duvet was on the bed.
And that's why Roux was very at pains to tell the Court ....why didn't Nel call Botha to the Stand.? If Botha had, and given a different version to the Court to that of his inital Statement --,he would have been found to be in contempt of Court and charged. So no idea what the consequences of this means ? with Botha having made a Statement that the Duvet was on the bed ??- obviously this doesn't however explain the blood trail left on the duvet and carpet.
I dont think thrres a pic of the continuation of the blood trail under the duvet
But in America for Instance these bullets are used by Police and Army or Homeland Security...whatever they wish to call themselves.
In the UK it is actually illegal to hunt certain types of game with ammo that does not expand, for example Schedule 2 of the Deer Act [1991] prohibiting the use of any ammo other than soft nosed or hollow point bullets for the killing of deer.
but in SA it's not the same - the police don't use them and as we know, these bullets cause maximum damage to human tissue,so those using them for private use , know they will more likely kill, not just wound or disable. Used on animals, it's short sharp kill , without prolonging agony of the animal,that I can understand.
Sky News round up programme on again
I remember though that Roux said that Botha's Statement, the policeman thrown off the Case, said when he got into the bedroom the duvet was on the bed.
And that's why Roux was very at pains to tell the Court ....why didn't Nel call Botha to the Stand.? If Botha had, and given a different version to the Court to that of his inital Statement --,he would have been found to be in contempt of Court and charged. So no idea what the consequences of this means ? with Botha having made a Statement that the Duvet was on the bed ??- obviously this doesn't however explain the blood trail left on the duvet and carpet.
Did you notice how when Nel talks about Reeva being shot. On queue OP put his head in his hands and started rubbing his eyes like he was crying >:(>:(>:( Total fake >:(
but in SA it's not the same - the police don't use them and as we know, these bullets cause maximum damage to human tissue,so those using them for private use , know they will more likely kill, not just wound or disable. Used on animals, it's short sharp kill , without prolonging agony of the animal,that I can understand.
I understand what you mean.
Yes they are used on animals for a humane kill.
On people, so they do not impact on the surrounding area and harm another person that they are not intended to harm. They hit the target only and finish it.
Did you notice how when Nel talks about Reeva being shot. On queue OP put his head in his hands and started rubbing his eyes like he was crying >:(>:(>:( Total fake >:(
oh it's all part of his Court plan of demeanor - all for show, to appear remorseful - he sits there the rest of the time like a teenage lad who has no respect for authority and who's on detention after school ! makes my skin crawl -he's a cold blooded killer who needs to do some time to realise he's not above the Law and i'm afraid it DOES apply to him , same as anyone.
On people so, they do not impact on the surrounding area and harm another person that they are not intended to harm. They hit the target only and finish it.
so anyone using them knows there's a strong likelihood that they WILL KILL !
oh it's all part of his Court plan of demeanor - all for show, to appear remorseful - he sits there the rest of the time like a teenage lad who has no respect for authority and who's on detention after school ! makes my skin crawl -he's a cold blooded killer who needs to do some time to realise he's not above the Law and i'm afraid it DOES apply to him , same as anyone.
Totally agree. I really hope he gets 25 years + for what he did.
Did you notice how when Nel talks about Reeva being shot. On queue OP put his head in his hands and started rubbing his eyes like he was crying >:(>:(>:( Total fake >:(
But if there was also blood under the duvet it could show that there was aleady blood on the carpet. its the necessary level of proof
but there wasn't- the blood trail was on the carpet then went across the duvet - that's your proof that the duvet was not moved ! that's the point here. http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-11/
the blood trail on carpet and duvet and on rear wall of bedroom was not in the path that OP took when he carried Reeva downstairs - so how did it get there ? - something the Judge will know only OP knows the answer to., and which he hasn't explained.
I did find it hard to concentrate on what he was saying
:D I've been out all day, just back home and think they are repeating it on Sky so will have to re-watch! ;-) believe it or not it's actually his eyes I find more appealing! Honest!
I'm afraid that statement is factually incorrect. Hollow point bullets are actually one of the most commonly used type of bullet - regularly issued to both civilian firearms users and police forces.
I absolutely understand and respect the empathy towards Reeva's wounds, but misstating fact is likely to lead to misunderstanding and confusion for those that are unaware of the commonality of this product.
Is this argument for the sake of argument as it is always worth checking facts before posting
I was talking about South Africa where hollow pointed are primarily the ammunition used for hunting. It is NOT as you state generally available to the police and military in that country. Private firearm users are permitted to use this type of ammunition but it is a personal choice.
Variations may well occur in for instance the USA but I think it reasonable to state the facts for South Africa under the circumstances.
According to Hood, ammunition is either classified as expanding or non-expanding.
Non-expanding bullets – commonly referred to as hard ammunition or full metal jackets – are usually made of lead encased in a copper coating. They are used mostly for practice and training and generally purposes other than hunting or self defence.
Hard ammunition is regarded as dangerous because it over-penetrates and if used to shoot a criminal, could easily penetrate the body and go on to hit a bystander, Hood explained.
This means that South African police are facing “a fair number of incidents” in which bystanders have been hit by bullets that had passed through targets and gone on to cause more damage.
Hood said he is currently representing a client who was accidentally shot by police who had fired at a suspect’s car. The bullet had penetrated the car and then hit his client, passing right through his head.
“He is little more than a vegetable now, in need of 24 hour care,” Hood said, explaining the impact of over-penetrating ammunition.
Expanding ammunition – popularly known as soft points or hollow points – are generally not available to the police and military in this country, but are legally available and commonly used by private firearm owners.
“It was developed to stop in the body. When it makes contact with something it starts expanding and slows down, kind of like a parachute, and is effective in taking down a target. The primary motive for its development was for US policemen who wanted to lower their liability,” Hood said.
He said there was another category of ammunition described as “frangible”. This was a bullet designed to break up immediately on impact. “If Oscar had used that type of ammunition, it would not have penetrated the door,” Hood said.
Explaining the workings of the Ranger T-type ammunition that he did use, Hood said the bullet would have struck the door and started to expand and then gone on to hit Steenkamp while expanding further.
“Theoretically speaking, her injuries would have been less severe if there had been no door,” Hood said.
He explained that the Ranger T-type brand is the new version of Black Talons – a brand of hollow point bullets taken off the market about 10 years ago. According to Hood, the Black Talons were withdrawn after a number of complaints were made by surgeons in America who had operated on criminals who had been shot with Black Talons by the police. The doctors complained that during surgery their latex gloves were being torn by the sharp bullet pieces inside their victims, exposing them to possible HIV infection.
As a result, the newer Ranger T-type brand was developed in its place.
Hood said the old Black Talons were black in colour and designed to splinter outward in sharp petals or shards. The new bullets, he said, look much the same but are designed to rather mushroom out as they expand and slow down.
Forensic investigator Chad Thomas of IRS Investigations said both The Hague and Geneva Conventions made provisions for the governing of weaponry and projectiles.
He said in essence, rounds in pistols (generally 9mm) or rifles were lead encased in copper.
He said hollow points, or “dum dums” as they are sometimes known, were outlawed for use in war and law enforcement but not for private protection.
“For self defence you can carry an array of different tipped bullets that mushroom or segment on impact,” he said.
Hi Sandy, I believe you may have just provided the answer to one of my little niggles as I had always wondered how the black talon bullets managed to pass through the toilet door and remain intact enough to cause the damage they did to Reeva.
Sky News round up programme on again
I remember though that Roux said that Botha's Statement, the policeman thrown off the Case, said when he got into the bedroom the duvet was on the bed.
And that's why Roux was very at pains to tell the Court ....why didn't Nel call Botha to the Stand.? If Botha had, and given a different version to the Court to that of his inital Statement --,he would have been found to be in contempt of Court and charged. So no idea what the consequences of this means ? with Botha having made a Statement that the Duvet was on the bed ??- obviously this doesn't however explain the blood trail left on the duvet and carpet.
That's how OP got caught out. He thought what Botha said in Afrikaans meant 'on the bed'. So in his story he denied the duvet was ever on the floor. Nel caught him out when he said the actual translation of what Botha said was 'on the carpet'. Defence did not make any objection to that.
I think you make a good point about the problem with grouping all people with disabilities together under the umbrella term 'disabled'.
Compared to many others, OP may well appear to be relatively 'able', but that doesn't mean that his significant 'disability' (sorry- I can't think of a better term) hasn't affected his emotional and psychological development. I think there's a risk that because his disability is easier to mask- through wearing prosthetics- that we diminish in our own minds the likely or possible impact of having (and hiding) such a disability.
He is disabled for sure. Less so than others as I have tried to describe. So what about their emotional/physcholgical development if any?
Of you class OP as severe what would you class Stephen Hawking as?
Greater or lesser than OP"s? The greater the disability the greater the impact? Therefore on a sliding scale OP would be nowhere near the top if so.
Life in general throws up some oddballs, some who cannot cope with their situations, disablled or not. Is it really their disabilities that cause it seeing that non disabled people can be impacted by their upbringing also?
Is it a character flaw, a chip on the shoulder situation?
Do the disabled want this or is it just one man? If it were to be brought into law a far better way to do it would be to do it in conjunction with disabled groups and such like.
The fact that it can be used in mitigation rather than a judgement, is that not enough?
but there wasn't- the blood trail was on the carpet then went across the duvet - that's your proof that the duvet was not moved ! that's the point here. http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-11/
the blood trail on carpet and duvet and on rear wall of bedroom was not in the path that OP took when he carried Reeva downstairs - so how did it get there ? - something the Judge will know only OP knows the answer to., and which he hasn't explained.
No. The cops didnt check under so did not eliminate possibility there was a long trail to the bed and on the duvet and they just happened to line up. Quite possible if part of same trail.
That's how OP got caught out. He thought what Botha said in Afrikaans meant 'on the bed'. So in his story he denied the duvet was ever on the floor. Nel caught him out when he said the actual translation of what Botha said was 'on the carpet'. Defence did not make any objection to that.
aaah that's good to know, glad you've clarified that point ! But why did Roux mention it again in Closing ?
oh dear the translation from Afrikaans to English had better be accurate in the Court Record , from witness testimonies ! - I remember at one point Roux said that the witness said bangs in Afrikaans, but obvious she meant gunshots , he tried to twist that the witness heard the bat sound and not the gunshots.
He is disabled for sure. Less so than others as I have tried to describe. So what about their emotional/physcholgical development if any?
Of you class OP as severe what would you class Stephen Hawking as?
Greater or lesser than OP"s? The greater the disability the greater the impact? Therefore on a sliding scale OP would be nowhere near the top if so.
Life in general throws up some oddballs, some who cannot cope with their situations, disablled or not. Is it really their disabilities that cause it seeing that non disabled people can be impacted by their upbringing also?
Is it a character flaw, a chip on the shoulder situation?
Do the disabled want this or is it just one man? If it were to be brought into law a far better way to do it would be to do it in conjunction with disabled groups and such like.
The fact that it can be used in mitigation rather than a judgement, is that not enough?
Very good post.
The 'reasonable man' is a benchmark of 'care'. The standard to which ALL should follow.
Saying that the disabled have a 'different' standard of ordinary decent careful behaviour is a serious thing.
Everyone is 'different', people have different backgrounds and beliefs and attitudes.
If 'the reasonable' man standard is reduced to 'particular' circumstance, then there is NO standard of decent behaviour.
That's serious for a society - when a certain degree of reasonable care should be expected from ALL its citizens.
It IS used in mitigation, but I would say it would be a dangerous thing to apply to the actual standard of proof for CH.
Comments
I remember though that Roux said that Botha's Statement, the policeman thrown off the Case, said when he got into the bedroom the duvet was on the bed.
And that's why Roux was very at pains to tell the Court ....why didn't Nel call Botha to the Stand.? If Botha had, and given a different version to the Court to that of his inital Statement --,he would have been found to be in contempt of Court and charged. So no idea what the consequences of this means ? with Botha having made a Statement that the Duvet was on the bed ??- obviously this doesn't however explain the blood trail left on the duvet and carpet.
But in America for Instance these bullets are used by Police and Army or Homeland Security...whatever they wish to call themselves.
In the UK it is actually illegal to hunt certain types of game with ammo that does not expand, for example Schedule 2 of the Deer Act [1991] prohibiting the use of any ammo other than soft nosed or hollow point bullets for the killing of deer.
I dont think thrres a pic of the continuation of the blood trail under the duvet
Did you notice how when Nel talks about Reeva being shot. On queue OP put his head in his hands and started rubbing his eyes like he was crying >:(>:(>:( Total fake >:(
I understand what you mean.
Yes they are used on animals for a humane kill.
On people, so they do not impact on the surrounding area and harm another person that they are not intended to harm. They hit the target only and finish it.
Totally agree. I really hope he gets 25 years + for what he did.
But if there was also blood under the duvet it could show that there was aleady blood on the carpet. its the necessary level of proof
I wonder if they're trying to sway British public opinion in favour of Oscar Pistorius.
Well lets put it this way, a deer is a large animal, to kill it humanly you need to fire once, and once only to kill it.
These bullets do the job. hence why in the UK these are the only type of bullets you are allowed to use by Law.
Yup. Did. Persuaded? No,
http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/17/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-11/
the blood trail on carpet and duvet and on rear wall of bedroom was not in the path that OP took when he carried Reeva downstairs - so how did it get there ? - something the Judge will know only OP knows the answer to., and which he hasn't explained.
Is this argument for the sake of argument as it is always worth checking facts before posting
I was talking about South Africa where hollow pointed are primarily the ammunition used for hunting. It is NOT as you state generally available to the police and military in that country. Private firearm users are permitted to use this type of ammunition but it is a personal choice.
Variations may well occur in for instance the USA but I think it reasonable to state the facts for South Africa under the circumstances.
Hope that is sufficient elucidation.
Hi Sandy, I believe you may have just provided the answer to one of my little niggles as I had always wondered how the black talon bullets managed to pass through the toilet door and remain intact enough to cause the damage they did to Reeva.
I think the British Public will make up their own minds and not listen to either one source or another.
Those who have seen the whole trial will certainly know what is what, those who have not seen any of the trial will wonder what all the fuss is about.
he never 'blinks'
really odd !
That's how OP got caught out. He thought what Botha said in Afrikaans meant 'on the bed'. So in his story he denied the duvet was ever on the floor. Nel caught him out when he said the actual translation of what Botha said was 'on the carpet'. Defence did not make any objection to that.
He is disabled for sure. Less so than others as I have tried to describe. So what about their emotional/physcholgical development if any?
Of you class OP as severe what would you class Stephen Hawking as?
Greater or lesser than OP"s? The greater the disability the greater the impact? Therefore on a sliding scale OP would be nowhere near the top if so.
Life in general throws up some oddballs, some who cannot cope with their situations, disablled or not. Is it really their disabilities that cause it seeing that non disabled people can be impacted by their upbringing also?
Is it a character flaw, a chip on the shoulder situation?
Do the disabled want this or is it just one man? If it were to be brought into law a far better way to do it would be to do it in conjunction with disabled groups and such like.
The fact that it can be used in mitigation rather than a judgement, is that not enough?
No. The cops didnt check under so did not eliminate possibility there was a long trail to the bed and on the duvet and they just happened to line up. Quite possible if part of same trail.
oh dear the translation from Afrikaans to English had better be accurate in the Court Record , from witness testimonies ! - I remember at one point Roux said that the witness said bangs in Afrikaans, but obvious she meant gunshots , he tried to twist that the witness heard the bat sound and not the gunshots.
Very good post.
The 'reasonable man' is a benchmark of 'care'. The standard to which ALL should follow.
Saying that the disabled have a 'different' standard of ordinary decent careful behaviour is a serious thing.
Everyone is 'different', people have different backgrounds and beliefs and attitudes.
If 'the reasonable' man standard is reduced to 'particular' circumstance, then there is NO standard of decent behaviour.
That's serious for a society - when a certain degree of reasonable care should be expected from ALL its citizens.
It IS used in mitigation, but I would say it would be a dangerous thing to apply to the actual standard of proof for CH.