I believe your problem is that you're a liberal who utterly refuses to accept the profound illiberalism inherent in Islam. I'm a liberal who utterly rejects the illiberalism of Islam because to do so is the only way to protect the liberal values we already have.
You are right that I am generally a liberal. However I do reject the illiberalism of ultra-conservatives whether they are Muslim, Christian or anything else. I believe that we cannot protect liberalism by being illiberal ourselves however - and that is the difference between us.
I don't see the difference between a "moderate muslim" and an "ultra-conservative Christian". In fact the very phrase 'moderate muslim' is an enormous red herring. As I've said before, they're only 'moderate' in comparison with the sub-humans currently in Iraq and Syria. By any other standard they are deeply conservative.
I don't want the death penalty, we live in a country without the death penalty, yet we live in a society where daily people call for the reintroduction of it. It's the same with sharia law, you can't stop people considering the benefits or wishing for it, but it doesn't mean it's going to happen. It's part of living somewhere like the UK, we're allowed freedom of thought.
Freedom of thought is all very well, but it can turn bad.
Think about what happened in Germany during the 1920s, for instance. People were unhappy, a leader with powerful propaganda skills showed up and soon almost an entire nation was brainwashed. It's up to those of us aware of what is happening to stand up and speak against those who wish harm, especially if those people are successful at spreading their message and getting young people on board (like IS and UKIP).
Freedom of thought is all very well, but it can turn bad.
Think about what happened in Germany during the 1920s, for instance. People were unhappy, a leader with powerful propaganda skills showed up and soon almost an entire nation was brainwashed. It's up to those of us aware of what is happening to stand up and speak against those who wish harm, especially if those people are successful at spreading their message and getting young people on board (like IS and UKIP).
So your answer is to control freedom of thought. How do you propose we do that? I'm looking forward to this one.
I agree, so how on earth can you support the presence of Islam in the UK? I honestly cannot understand it. What you call "ultra-conservative things" are the very things "moderate muslims" support themselves. If you want to protect the things you mentioned then Islam has to be kept firmly in its box. Unfortunately that's not happened so far, and I very much doubt it will.
And, again, no-one's talked about "removing people". The issue was giving them support if they chose to leave.
I don't support the ultra-conservative views of some Muslims (not all Muslims want Sharia law in the UK - and of those that do, most want a modified and more 'western appropriate' version of it... did you not actually read the report you posted on here? Or the quotes I gave from it?). I do support British citizen's right to hold ultra-conservative views however - which is why I don't call for people who want the DP to 'go and live somewhere else'. I would rather work to engage them and try to change their minds - and I do so... what do you do?
You just completely changed the subject. We were talking about how people to choose to live illiberally being their choice, not that they can go around harming others. Where did that even come from?
If they want to not drink alcohol, fine, their choice. If they want to hurt someone, that's like, illegal, you know?
There's more to Sharia Law than not drinking alcohol ... did you know that? How about taking away almost all women's rights, stoning them for dating a non-Muslim etc.
Therefore, if a Muslim wants to impose Sharia Law in the UK, they are wishing all women in the UK harm (in my opinion anyway, they probably think they are "saving their souls and protecting their modesty" or something).
Unless Sharia Law makes allowances for excessive alcohol consumption it won't make much ground in the UK for at least another 100 generations.
The only way any interpretation of Sharia Law will become mainstream in the UK is through the ballot box, and that just isn't going to happen.
A few years there was a political party, the Islamic Party of Great Britain, that campaigned for Islamic values and Sharia Law to become mainstream. No one, not even their fellow Muslims, bothered to vote for them and they shut down a couple of years later.
But another thing I see here is that many seem to fall into the belief that Sharia Law has only one interpretation, it doesn't. It is a basic legal framework, just like Common Law or Roman Law is a basic legal framework. Western countries based on Common Law are not identical, do not all follow the same rules and do not all have the same rules and laws, some are more moderate and some are stricter than others in their interpretations. Sharia is much the same, with different Islamic countries having often vastly different interpretations of Sharia Law.
It's the same type of thing with the growing belief that all Muslims are the same, which we are seeing reflected here in this very thread too.
And for the record, no, Sharia Law should not and never be incorporated into British Law. But unlike many I am not panicking that it is going to become our legal system in 50 years.
So your answer is to control freedom of thought. How do you propose we do that? I'm looking forward to this one.
Not really, just try to help people to become more enlightened rather than going backwards. Speak to people who are ignorant and unaware, spread knowledge. I think education and keeping an open mind (which must apply to everyone) is the key.
I don't like a lot of post in this thread and hoped that this thread would focus more on this man and his poor family, the politics of it are hard enough. Never since 9/11 or Dunblane has a report on the news bothered me so much that I cant sleep and cant turn on the news. Tragic and my heart goes out to them
I agree totally. Such a story hasn't preyed on my mind for a long time. However I suspect no-one wants to dwell on the incident itself. It's much easier to discuss the wider ramifications than the individual horror.
It's not really my job to propose what we 'do' about it as IMO the situation should never have been allowed to arise in the first place.
Evasion.
You can argue till you are blue in the face that Muslims should never have been allowed to settle here. But the fact is they ARE here, so constantly moaning they should never have been allowed here does absolutely nothing. You certainly aren't going to tackle the growing problem with extremism by just complaining that we should never have let Muslims into the UK in the first place. We need a coherent approach and firm action on how we tackle extremism today, because Muslims are here and, as we know, some of them are extremist Muslims.
I don't support the ultra-conservative views of some Muslims (not all Muslims want Sharia law in the UK - and of those that do, most want a modified and more 'western appropriate' version of it... did you not actually read the report you posted on here? Or the quotes I gave from it?). I do support British citizen's right to hold ultra-conservative views however - which is why I don't call for people who want the DP to 'go and live somewhere else'. I would rather work to engage them and try to change their minds - and I do so... what do you do?
I read the report that suggested that 32% believe "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end".
What do I do? Nothing. Me and Islam are totally opposed to each other. A gay man in favour of Islam would be like a turkey voting for Christmas.
You can argue till you are blue in the face that Muslims should never have been allowed to settle here. But the fact is they ARE here, so constantly moaning they should never have been allowed here does absolutely nothing. You certainly aren't going to tackle the growing problem with extremism by just complaining that we should never have let Muslims into the UK in the first place. We need a coherent approach and firm action on how we tackle extremism today, because Muslims are here and, as we know, some of them are extremist Muslims.
I know a way it could have been avoided .... by not starting the Iraq war etc., stopping Israel from stealing Palestinian land and treating the Muslims with more respect. I was at the march in London against the bombing of Iraq, but of course the wheels of the NWO were already in motion and us little people could no longer stop it.
Now the damage has been done and their hatred of the West into something extremely dangerous.
You can argue till you are blue in the face that Muslims should never have been allowed to settle here. But the fact is they ARE here, so constantly moaning they should never have been allowed here does absolutely nothing. You certainly aren't going to tackle the growing problem with extremism by just complaining that we should never have let Muslims into the UK in the first place. We need a coherent approach and firm action on how we tackle extremism today, because Muslims are here and, as we know, some of them are extremist Muslims.
I suspect my 'firm action' would be met with squeals of outrage and disapproval.
I know a way it could have been avoided .... by not starting the Iraq war etc., stopping Israel from stealing Palestinian land and treating the Muslims with more respect. I was at the march in London against the bombing of Iraq, but of course the wheels of the NWO were already in motion and us little people could no longer stop it.
Now the damage has been done and their hatred of the West into something extremely dangerous.
The Iraq War and Afghanistan all came after the 9/11 terrorist attacks (not to say the second Iraq War wasn't an enormous mistake as it was).
There's more to Sharia Law than not drinking alcohol ... did you know that? How about taking away almost all women's rights, stoning them for dating a non-Muslim etc.
Therefore, if a Muslim wants to impose Sharia Law in the UK, they are wishing all women in the UK harm (in my opinion anyway, they probably think they are "saving their souls and protecting their modesty" or something).
I'm quite aware of what Sharia Law involves and how widely it's interpretation and implementation differs.
However, you've again completely changed the subject. We were discussing living in a liberal land and if people choose to live illiberally, that's their choice.
You then took it onto meaning that Muslims are allowed to harm people and now Sharia Law. You need to stay on topic and respond to the points posed else it looks like no more than a rant session with no purpose.
I read the report that suggested that 32% believe "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end".
What do I do? Nothing. Me and Islam are totally opposed to each other. A gay man in favour of Islam would be like a turkey voting for Christmas.
Well you evidently didn't read the bulk of the report that analysed those views and looked at them in context.
I am a gay woman and I actively engage with members of the Muslim community to try and improve understanding about subjects like bullying and homophobia - which, by the way, is not as 'black and white' as you might suppose - just as it isn't when you talk to other groups, religious or otherwise).
You don't seem willing to engage in the solution (despite asking me yesterday what I would do about it and then ignoring almost everything I said in my response) - what good is that? We can all moan about the dangers of this that or the other, but not trying to develop solutions or support those who do seems an exercise in futility to me.
You don't have to be "in favour" of Islam. You can just accept that Muslims are entitled to their beliefs, like followers of any other religion.
No, I won't and I never will.
We've spent generations and generations dragging the UK forward in terms of the human rights of its citizens. The effort it has taken, from the Protestant Reformation through the English Civil War to the Enlightenment and the victory of reason and science over superstition and dogma, and for what? Just to tolerate more superstition, dogma and intolerance from a newly-imported religion and its growing number of adherents that recognise none of the values that we've strived so hard to create. The very idea is total anathema to me.
Comments
A liberal? I think not.
I don't see the difference between a "moderate muslim" and an "ultra-conservative Christian". In fact the very phrase 'moderate muslim' is an enormous red herring. As I've said before, they're only 'moderate' in comparison with the sub-humans currently in Iraq and Syria. By any other standard they are deeply conservative.
Well suck it up as it's true.
Freedom of thought is all very well, but it can turn bad.
Think about what happened in Germany during the 1920s, for instance. People were unhappy, a leader with powerful propaganda skills showed up and soon almost an entire nation was brainwashed. It's up to those of us aware of what is happening to stand up and speak against those who wish harm, especially if those people are successful at spreading their message and getting young people on board (like IS and UKIP).
So your answer is to control freedom of thought. How do you propose we do that? I'm looking forward to this one.
It's not really my job to propose what we 'do' about it as IMO the situation should never have been allowed to arise in the first place.
I don't support the ultra-conservative views of some Muslims (not all Muslims want Sharia law in the UK - and of those that do, most want a modified and more 'western appropriate' version of it... did you not actually read the report you posted on here? Or the quotes I gave from it?). I do support British citizen's right to hold ultra-conservative views however - which is why I don't call for people who want the DP to 'go and live somewhere else'. I would rather work to engage them and try to change their minds - and I do so... what do you do?
There's more to Sharia Law than not drinking alcohol ... did you know that? How about taking away almost all women's rights, stoning them for dating a non-Muslim etc.
Therefore, if a Muslim wants to impose Sharia Law in the UK, they are wishing all women in the UK harm (in my opinion anyway, they probably think they are "saving their souls and protecting their modesty" or something).
The only way any interpretation of Sharia Law will become mainstream in the UK is through the ballot box, and that just isn't going to happen.
A few years there was a political party, the Islamic Party of Great Britain, that campaigned for Islamic values and Sharia Law to become mainstream. No one, not even their fellow Muslims, bothered to vote for them and they shut down a couple of years later.
But another thing I see here is that many seem to fall into the belief that Sharia Law has only one interpretation, it doesn't. It is a basic legal framework, just like Common Law or Roman Law is a basic legal framework. Western countries based on Common Law are not identical, do not all follow the same rules and do not all have the same rules and laws, some are more moderate and some are stricter than others in their interpretations. Sharia is much the same, with different Islamic countries having often vastly different interpretations of Sharia Law.
It's the same type of thing with the growing belief that all Muslims are the same, which we are seeing reflected here in this very thread too.
And for the record, no, Sharia Law should not and never be incorporated into British Law. But unlike many I am not panicking that it is going to become our legal system in 50 years.
Not really, just try to help people to become more enlightened rather than going backwards. Speak to people who are ignorant and unaware, spread knowledge. I think education and keeping an open mind (which must apply to everyone) is the key.
I agree totally. Such a story hasn't preyed on my mind for a long time. However I suspect no-one wants to dwell on the incident itself. It's much easier to discuss the wider ramifications than the individual horror.
I don't see how it could have been predicted or avoided. And the problems with Islamist extremists are by no means confined to this country of course.
Evasion.
You can argue till you are blue in the face that Muslims should never have been allowed to settle here. But the fact is they ARE here, so constantly moaning they should never have been allowed here does absolutely nothing. You certainly aren't going to tackle the growing problem with extremism by just complaining that we should never have let Muslims into the UK in the first place. We need a coherent approach and firm action on how we tackle extremism today, because Muslims are here and, as we know, some of them are extremist Muslims.
I read the report that suggested that 32% believe "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end".
What do I do? Nothing. Me and Islam are totally opposed to each other. A gay man in favour of Islam would be like a turkey voting for Christmas.
I know a way it could have been avoided .... by not starting the Iraq war etc., stopping Israel from stealing Palestinian land and treating the Muslims with more respect. I was at the march in London against the bombing of Iraq, but of course the wheels of the NWO were already in motion and us little people could no longer stop it.
Now the damage has been done and their hatred of the West into something extremely dangerous.
I suspect my 'firm action' would be met with squeals of outrage and disapproval.
The Iraq War and Afghanistan all came after the 9/11 terrorist attacks (not to say the second Iraq War wasn't an enormous mistake as it was).
You don't have to be "in favour" of Islam. You can just accept that Muslims are entitled to their beliefs, like followers of any other religion.
You do make some extremely good points and posts Kapellmeister.:)
I'm quite aware of what Sharia Law involves and how widely it's interpretation and implementation differs.
However, you've again completely changed the subject. We were discussing living in a liberal land and if people choose to live illiberally, that's their choice.
You then took it onto meaning that Muslims are allowed to harm people and now Sharia Law. You need to stay on topic and respond to the points posed else it looks like no more than a rant session with no purpose.
Wasn't one of the reasons we went to Iraq because of the human rights abuses against the Kurds by Saddam?
I thought it was WMD's... or something.
Weird how Hussein's brutal but relatively stable dictatorship actually looks like an attractive situation for the country right now...
Well you evidently didn't read the bulk of the report that analysed those views and looked at them in context.
I am a gay woman and I actively engage with members of the Muslim community to try and improve understanding about subjects like bullying and homophobia - which, by the way, is not as 'black and white' as you might suppose - just as it isn't when you talk to other groups, religious or otherwise).
You don't seem willing to engage in the solution (despite asking me yesterday what I would do about it and then ignoring almost everything I said in my response) - what good is that? We can all moan about the dangers of this that or the other, but not trying to develop solutions or support those who do seems an exercise in futility to me.
No, I won't and I never will.
We've spent generations and generations dragging the UK forward in terms of the human rights of its citizens. The effort it has taken, from the Protestant Reformation through the English Civil War to the Enlightenment and the victory of reason and science over superstition and dogma, and for what? Just to tolerate more superstition, dogma and intolerance from a newly-imported religion and its growing number of adherents that recognise none of the values that we've strived so hard to create. The very idea is total anathema to me.
But nobody is talking about religious beliefs. We are talking about a political ideology founded in religion - a different thing entirely.