Come to Cardiff or the South Wales Valleys some time. It's a different world down here. You'll get a much warmer welcome. As I said in my last post, most people around here are of Italian/Irish/Devonian origin. There are Welsh road signs (which most of us regard as a damn nuisance) but you'll mostly hear English spoken and most people will be happy to see you. We've got our share of idiots, don't get me wrong, but people speaking Welsh to exclude others doesn't really happen much, unless you're at BBC Wales or S4C headquarters (which is largely dominated by people from West and North Wales anyway).
Shame on you even acknowledging the attention seeking idiot.
I'm in Cardiff and I just visited North Wales for three days.
I thoroughly enjoyed the welcome we experienced everywhere.
There's no "different world" in terms of welcome - anywhere in the UK.
There are decent people all over the world and there are Billy NoBalls to be found too but they are the sad exception looking for a reaction.
Welsh isn't spoken much in South Wales, apart from Swansea, although my North Welsh speaking grandmother used to say Swansea Welsh wasn't proper Welsh as she couldn't understand it. Welsh is more widely spoken in Central and North wales.
You'll find a lot of Welsh spoken in Cardiff considering its home to the Assembly, BBC and ITV Wales and S4C.
But you won't hear it much as a first language "out and about".
If you go South West and West you'll certainly hear it and often as first language.
As for your Nan, well down here we say that up North they talk "Gog"
It is a fact that North and South dialects differ to the extent that there can be difficulty in comprehending each other.
The accents differ tremendously.
I like hearing Welsh spoken though it's pretty much useless anywhere outside Wales. Similar to certain areas of Scotland where Gaelic is spoken (once met a young chap on one of the islands and Gaelic was his first language in School, English second).
The Welsh language is similar to Swiss-German who speak to each other in Schweizerdeutsch which nobody outside the Swiss-German Cantons can understand! :D
I like hearing Welsh spoken though it's pretty much useless anywhere outside Wales. Similar to certain areas of Scotland where Gaelic is spoken (once met a young chap on one of the islands and Gaelic was his first language in School, English second).
The Welsh language is similar to Swiss-German who speak to each other in Schweizerdeutsch which nobody outside the Swiss-German Cantons can understand! :D
Come to Cardiff or the South Wales Valleys some time. It's a different world down here.
Blimey you are right on that! :o
I've been in North Wales loads of times but never down South. Decided one weekend i'd take a trip down to the Valleeeeys (:D) with the intention of heading for Aberfan. But each village and town i was going through just got increasingly drab and soul destroying to the point i was becoming manic depressive! :(
By early evening i'd seen more than enough, turn back north and spent the night on the Brecons.
Sorry......but the Valleeeeeys badly depressed me. Maybe i was just in 'the wrong area'?
Only one or two 'naughty' words. My ex-wife is Swiss....blame her for that!
In short it's a heck of a difficult dialect to learn (for English).
edit* oh yes.....just remembered i know how to say 'hello' too which is useful eh?
But interestingly the pronunciations vary from one Canton to another. My ex-wife is from Bern, but people in Zurich sound totally different and much faster.
I like hearing Welsh spoken though it's pretty much useless anywhere outside Wales. Similar to certain areas of Scotland where Gaelic is spoken (once met a young chap on one of the islands and Gaelic was his first language in School, English second).
Yes. Is this peculiar? How many English-speakers in the world speak it as a second language? The majority probably.
The Welsh language is similar to Swiss-German who speak to each other in Schweizerdeutsch which nobody outside the Swiss-German Cantons can understand! :D
Linguistically it is very different as Schwiizertütsch is part of the Germanic family of languages, and Welsh is derived from Insular Celtic, but I agree they are both minority languages.
I like hearing Roger Federer speaking Swiss-Geman :cool:
Nympho.....:D:D......but FGS we are both in our 60's now! She was bonkers too.....but i still keep in touch. No hard feelings etc......lifes too short for that crap.
Nympho.....:D:D......but FGS we are both in our 60's now! She was bonkers too.....but i still keep in touch. No hard feelings etc......lifes too short for that crap.
Well, if you met her before the European freedom of movement thing came in, do you think the visa process was worth it?
I've been in North Wales loads of times but never down South. Decided one weekend i'd take a trip down to the Valleeeeys (:D) with the intention of heading for Aberfan. But each village and town i was going through just got increasingly drab and soul destroying to the point i was becoming manic depressive! :(
By early evening i'd seen more than enough, turn back north and spent the night on the Brecons.
Sorry......but the Valleeeeeys badly depressed me. Maybe i was just in 'the wrong area'?
Yeah there's a reason why they might be so 'welcoming'.
I think it's more to do with utter shock that someone from somewhere else has visited... Actually come there on purpose!
I suppose I shall be accused by some of being 'crachach' now.:D
Have you ever been in Maesteg or Glyncorrwg? It is where life congeals like lard on a cold plate of despair.:p
Linguistically it is very different as Schwiizertütsch is part of the Germanic family of languages....
Ouch!! She'd disagree with you on that! Schweizerdeutsch isn't even a language, it's a dialect. And though i know where you are coming from, you will soon upset any Swiss-German national by associating them with German/Germany. It really used to grind my 'ex' when some British people would say things like, "so if you speak German (meaning High German which of course they have to), you must be German?" :o
That's comparable to some thicko assuming that just because you speak English, you aren't Welsh.....you must be English!
Swiss enjoy 'being different' and confusing folk! :D
Have you ever been in Maesteg or Glyncorrwg? It is where life congeals like lard on a cold plate of despair.:p
Give me a few mins and i'll go 'mapping' to find out roughly where i was.
*edit; ok i'd started from Aberaeron > Ammanford > Glanamman > Pontardarwe.......started giving up by here and vamooshed pronto up to Glyn Neath and onto the Brecons.
Suicide rate is apparently fairly high down that neck o' th' woods isn't it? I could see why.
Ouch!! She'd disagree with you on that! Schweizerdeutsch isn't even a language, it's a dialect. And though i know where you are coming from, you will soon upset any Swiss-German national by associating them with German/Germany. It really used to grind my 'ex' when some British people would say things like, "so if you speak German (meaning High German which of course they have to), you must be German?" :o
That's comparable to some thicko assuming that just because you speak English, you aren't Welsh.....you must be English!
Well your ex would be wrong then. Swiss German is definitely derived from the Germanic family as it shares all its features with that family and is descended from a Proto-Germanic language. Same goes for Dutch, Swedish, German, Danish etc.
Cross refer languages like French, Spanish and Italian, all languages in their own right, but related to the 'Romance' family (descended from Latin).
Well, if you met her before the European freedom of movement thing came in, do you think the visa process was worth it?
As Switzerland isn't an EU member state she had to apply for a Visa and we both had to go to the British Embassy in Geneva where we were interviewed separately. It's not as simple as some British like to imagine it to be.
To make matters worse, the Embassy told us one thing whilst the Immigration Office in London told us entirely different. Oh brother......typical UK! >:(>:( She'd been living with me when we suddenly got told in order for her to stay we had to marry....and we had just two weeks left in which to sort it!
Worth it? I was madly in love so you do whatever needs to be done!
Well your ex would be wrong then. Swiss German is definitely derived from the Germanic family as it shares all its features with that family and is descended from a Proto-Germanic language. Same goes for Dutch, Swedish, German, Danish etc.
Cross refer languages like French, Spanish and Italian, all languages in their own right, but related to the 'Romance' family (descended from Latin).
The point i was making was she didn't like being associated as 'German', which of course she wasn't. You'd be surprised how many British people couldn't figure it.
Schweizerdeutsch is about as far removed from German as Welsh is from English, except as i've said Schweizerdeutsch isn't even a language......it's a dialect. It's not even written though attempts have been made to write it, but it's not formally written.
We only ever met one British guy who could speak it. A Customs Officer at Dover Port. It was quite weird as well as the guy was Lancashire born 'n bred and when he was waffling with my ex-wife, i could hear his Lancashire accent......speaking Schweizerdeutsch.
The point i was making was she didn't like being associated as 'German', which of course she wasn't. You'd be surprised how many British people couldn't figure it.
Schweizerdeutsch is about as far removed from German as Welsh is from English, except as i've said Schweizerdeutsch isn't even a language......it's a dialect. It's not even written though attempts have been made to write it, but it's not formally written.
The fact that Swiss German is a dialect (i.e a dialect of German) shows that it is very closely related to German. To say that it is 'about as far removed from German as Welsh is from English' is completely errant because Welsh and English are from two different linguistic families.
The fact that Swiss German is a dialect (i.e a dialect of German) shows that it is very closely related to German.
Then we will just have to agree to disagree as i stand by what i said. It's way way too complex to figure it all out as there are even linguistic divisions within Schweizerdeutsch. It's a wacko 'lingo'!
She's Swiss born 'n bred, 64 years old, so should know more about it than either of us ever will. I'll email her and send you her reply!
In German this would be:
"Ich wünsche Dir einen guten Tag"
In Swiss German, this would be:
"Ich wünsch Dir e schöne Daag "
Obvious similarities.
Except you are totally overlooking the differences within.....you have lower Alemannic, high and highest. Then you have the varying dialect from one Canton to another. Zuri-Swiss pronounce, and spell, certain words of Scweizerdeutsch to that of Bernese.....and so on.
Except you are totally overlooking the differences within.....you have lower Alemannic, high and highest. Then you have the varying dialect from one Canton to another. Zuri-Swiss pronounce, and spell, certain words of Scweizerdeutsch to that of Bernese.....and so on.
It's not as 'abc' as you seem to believe.
Anyway........i'm off to bed!
Ha good idea ;-) I should too but am not sleepy.
I know Swiss German has variations within the dialect, I'm not disputing that at all.
All I'm saying is that they are all related and descended from the Germanic family of languages.... as indeed English is.
This chart is a bit basic but it demonstrates the point
Schweizerdeutsch is about as far removed from German as Welsh is from English
Well, no. It's pretty close to German and there would be a fair degree of mutual understanding. Welsh and English on the other hand - very little similarity and certainly no mutual understanding!
I've been in North Wales loads of times but never down South. Decided one weekend i'd take a trip down to the Valleeeeys (:D) with the intention of heading for Aberfan. But each village and town i was going through just got increasingly drab and soul destroying to the point i was becoming manic depressive! :(
By early evening i'd seen more than enough, turn back north and spent the night on the Brecons.
Sorry......but the Valleeeeeys badly depressed me. Maybe i was just in 'the wrong area'?
The Valleys consist of towns built around mining and a few associated industries, that had the rug pulled out from under them 30 years ago. What exactly were you expecting? To be fair, despite their decline, they are making a good go of finding ways to maintain a local economy. Some great breweries around there, and Pwll Mawr is good fun (along with the other touristy things at Blaenafon).
When I was at uni in Cardiff, some of my fellow students chatted to each other in Welsh and my flatmate's first language was Welsh, which she spoke in to her family.
There are some people in Wales who are quite militant and obsessive about keeping the language alive and attempt to force it on those parts of Wales where the language was never widely spoken. For example I live in a part of Wales where pretty much everyone speaks English as their first language and always have done. You rarely hear anyone speaking Welsh around here unless it's people who've come on the bus up from Bala and places like that.
I object to everything having to be bilingual. Whenever you get any kind of official documentation in the post, whether it be from the NHS, the local authority, the DVLA, the police etc you have to receive it in both English AND Welsh, so you'll get two lots of letters, leaflets etc. It's ridiculous and a waste of money and resources IMO, money that could be better spend on improving public services, which already lag behind those in England.
But you can't say anything about it because the Welsh language lobby, and they are in the minority BTW, are very vocal and carry a lot of clout in Wales.
Comments
I'm in Cardiff and I just visited North Wales for three days.
I thoroughly enjoyed the welcome we experienced everywhere.
There's no "different world" in terms of welcome - anywhere in the UK.
There are decent people all over the world and there are Billy NoBalls to be found too but they are the sad exception looking for a reaction.
But you won't hear it much as a first language "out and about".
If you go South West and West you'll certainly hear it and often as first language.
As for your Nan, well down here we say that up North they talk "Gog"
It is a fact that North and South dialects differ to the extent that there can be difficulty in comprehending each other.
The accents differ tremendously.
The Welsh language is similar to Swiss-German who speak to each other in Schweizerdeutsch which nobody outside the Swiss-German Cantons can understand!
Can YOU speak Swiss-German?
I've been in North Wales loads of times but never down South. Decided one weekend i'd take a trip down to the Valleeeeys (:D) with the intention of heading for Aberfan. But each village and town i was going through just got increasingly drab and soul destroying to the point i was becoming manic depressive!
By early evening i'd seen more than enough, turn back north and spent the night on the Brecons.
Sorry......but the Valleeeeeys badly depressed me. Maybe i was just in 'the wrong area'?
In short it's a heck of a difficult dialect to learn (for English).
edit* oh yes.....just remembered i know how to say 'hello' too which is useful eh?
But interestingly the pronunciations vary from one Canton to another. My ex-wife is from Bern, but people in Zurich sound totally different and much faster.
Bet she is sexy in more ways than just the looks!
Yes. Is this peculiar? How many English-speakers in the world speak it as a second language? The majority probably.
Linguistically it is very different as Schwiizertütsch is part of the Germanic family of languages, and Welsh is derived from Insular Celtic, but I agree they are both minority languages.
I like hearing Roger Federer speaking Swiss-Geman :cool:
Well, if you met her before the European freedom of movement thing came in, do you think the visa process was worth it?
Yeah there's a reason why they might be so 'welcoming'.
I think it's more to do with utter shock that someone from somewhere else has visited... Actually come there on purpose!
I suppose I shall be accused by some of being 'crachach' now.:D
Have you ever been in Maesteg or Glyncorrwg? It is where life congeals like lard on a cold plate of despair.:p
Ouch!! She'd disagree with you on that! Schweizerdeutsch isn't even a language, it's a dialect. And though i know where you are coming from, you will soon upset any Swiss-German national by associating them with German/Germany. It really used to grind my 'ex' when some British people would say things like, "so if you speak German (meaning High German which of course they have to), you must be German?"
That's comparable to some thicko assuming that just because you speak English, you aren't Welsh.....you must be English!
Swiss enjoy 'being different' and confusing folk!
*edit; ok i'd started from Aberaeron > Ammanford > Glanamman > Pontardarwe.......started giving up by here and vamooshed pronto up to Glyn Neath and onto the Brecons.
Suicide rate is apparently fairly high down that neck o' th' woods isn't it? I could see why.
Well your ex would be wrong then. Swiss German is definitely derived from the Germanic family as it shares all its features with that family and is descended from a Proto-Germanic language. Same goes for Dutch, Swedish, German, Danish etc.
Cross refer languages like French, Spanish and Italian, all languages in their own right, but related to the 'Romance' family (descended from Latin).
To make matters worse, the Embassy told us one thing whilst the Immigration Office in London told us entirely different. Oh brother......typical UK! >:(>:( She'd been living with me when we suddenly got told in order for her to stay we had to marry....and we had just two weeks left in which to sort it!
Worth it? I was madly in love so you do whatever needs to be done!
Schweizerdeutsch is about as far removed from German as Welsh is from English, except as i've said Schweizerdeutsch isn't even a language......it's a dialect. It's not even written though attempts have been made to write it, but it's not formally written.
We only ever met one British guy who could speak it. A Customs Officer at Dover Port. It was quite weird as well as the guy was Lancashire born 'n bred and when he was waffling with my ex-wife, i could hear his Lancashire accent......speaking Schweizerdeutsch.
Welsh = Insular Celtic
English = Germanic (with significant Romance influences)
Welsh and English are therefore very different, have completely different vocabulary cores (loanwords excepted) and vary syntactically.
She's Swiss born 'n bred, 64 years old, so should know more about it than either of us ever will. I'll email her and send you her reply!
Let's take the phrase "I wish you a good day"
In German this would be:
"Ich wünsche Dir einen guten Tag"
In Swiss German, this would be:
"Ich wünsch Dir e schöne Daag "
Obvious similarities.
Now let's compare English and Welsh:
English: "I wish you a good day"
Welsh: "Dymunaf ddydd da i ti"
For a start all the words are different, and, significantly, the syntax - the order of the words in the sentence.
Welsh goes verb - subject - object.
It's not as 'abc' as you seem to believe.
Anyway........i'm off to bed!
Ha good idea ;-) I should too but am not sleepy.
I know Swiss German has variations within the dialect, I'm not disputing that at all.
All I'm saying is that they are all related and descended from the Germanic family of languages.... as indeed English is.
This chart is a bit basic but it demonstrates the point
http://www.oocities.org/geenath_2000/indeur1.gif
Look at the bottom right where Swiss and Alemannic are recorded.
To which languages are they related? And where did they come from?
Well, no. It's pretty close to German and there would be a fair degree of mutual understanding. Welsh and English on the other hand - very little similarity and certainly no mutual understanding!
The Valleys consist of towns built around mining and a few associated industries, that had the rug pulled out from under them 30 years ago. What exactly were you expecting? To be fair, despite their decline, they are making a good go of finding ways to maintain a local economy. Some great breweries around there, and Pwll Mawr is good fun (along with the other touristy things at Blaenafon).
I object to everything having to be bilingual. Whenever you get any kind of official documentation in the post, whether it be from the NHS, the local authority, the DVLA, the police etc you have to receive it in both English AND Welsh, so you'll get two lots of letters, leaflets etc. It's ridiculous and a waste of money and resources IMO, money that could be better spend on improving public services, which already lag behind those in England.
But you can't say anything about it because the Welsh language lobby, and they are in the minority BTW, are very vocal and carry a lot of clout in Wales.