It is not known at all whether a) the remains those children found had anything to do with the mother and baby home or b) whether the stone chamber they were in was ever a sewage/septic tank. You're still being misled by the hysterical bollocks which was printed in the first few days after the story broke. Once people actually began to check the facts, a different picture emerged.
The site all around there was excavated in 2012 after council workers digging to lay new water pipes discovered skeletons....
Its long been known in that area anyway that there are mass graves from the 1840s Famine around the place, because it was one of the worst hit areas during that disaster.
Evidence that the structure the boys found bones in was a sewerage tank? Scanty, at best...
As for "nobody knocking to ask further questions", you seem to be unaware that the government set up a Commission of Inquiry into Ireland's Mother and Baby Homes in response to this story, charged with examining such questions as where the children are buried, whether the death toll was higher than the national child mortality rate at the time, were the children abused, did illegal adoptions take place, etc, etc. I suppose most Irish people have taken the novel approach of waiting to see the facts and evidence before indulging in fantasies about nuns dumping babies in sewage tanks. Its a shame The Guardian didn't do the same.
Many pauper graves have been lost to the mist of time and I am in no doubt this particular work house had one and such was the practise to inter these poor souls in such a grave.
This particular grave has been known about since 1975 by the towns folk.
I don't believe the boys found hundreds of skeletons.
I am convinced as I can be the men as boys did find skeletons in a sewage tank not a burial shaft and IMO shouldn't have been there.
Even the Forbes interview, which I had already read concede the man might be correct in his recollection as to the sewage tank angle and to use such a method is not alright.
That some bodies were dumped by the mother and baby home, I'm in no doubt.
I also believe Ms Corless did say what she said in her first interview although she has has amended her story to put her version straight.
But I also realise the media ran with and exaggerated the story.
I was already aware the Irish Government had set up a Commission of Inquiry in to the homes but I fear this is just a face saving exercise as so many of these type of inquiries are.
So much of S/Ireland is still in denial when it come to the abuses mated out by the Church and Sisters, I include enslavement in that criticism but the UK is as guilty in such practises as are other countries.
As you write, lets try the novel approach and wait and see.
God bless this man :-)
Anyone with the love for their kids, grit, energy and wherewithal to make such a huge move to protect their kids from the system and keep their family together, enough to uproot and move country, probably has the ability, (maybe with proper support) to be a great great parent
Yes, let's wait and see, and please don't go around in the meantime stating as fact that children were put into sewerage tanks, because you may be as convinced as you can be, but there is not a shred of evidence for it.
Personally, it wouldn't surprise me if the workmen who built the housing estate found those bones and quietly moved them into the "sewerage tank" in which they were found so they could avoid the risk of the whole site being declared off limits for building and their jobs being lost. That has happened before in the area too, unfortunately. Its not very nice, but I suppose the workmen thought that the famine victims were already beyond help, whereas they still had mouths to feed.
However, my private suspicion about that has no more evidence than yours about the sewerage tank, so let's just wait and see.
Yes, let's wait and see, and please don't go around in the meantime stating as fact that children were put into sewerage tanks, because you may be as convinced as you can be, but there is not a shred of evidence for it.
Personally, it wouldn't surprise me if the workmen who built the housing estate found those bones and quietly moved them into the "sewerage tank" in which they were found so they could avoid the risk of the whole site being declared off limits for building and their jobs being lost. That has happened before in the area too, unfortunately. Its not very nice, but I suppose the workmen thought that the famine victims were already beyond help, whereas they still had mouths to feed.
However, my private suspicion about that has no more evidence than yours about the sewerage tank, so let's just wait and see.
I'm afraid you did initially state it as if it were fact, with no hint that it was merely a personal belief, that the Church and Sisters chucked dead children into a sewer tank.
Yes Hypno, people can be extradited from Ireland but the Irish now try to keep families together.
It's odd, ( or maybe a knee jerk reaction albeit a good one ), when you think what the Church and Sisters got up to and the horrors they all committed.
I mean chucking dead kids in to a sewer tank,---Jesus!
I'm just politely asking you, can you please not post that again? Unless, of course, we actually see evidence of such a thing, in which case I will be saying it too.
I'm afraid you did initially state it as if it were fact, with no hint that it was merely a personal belief, that the Church and Sisters chucked dead children into a sewer tank.
I'm just politely asking you, can you please not post that again? Unless, of course, we actually see evidence of such a thing, in which case I will be saying it too.
No I didn't, I stated my beliefs, my opinion and I believe that the sisters did dump kids into a sewer tank, I gave no hint it was a fact or wrote it that way.
Had I known it to be a fact I would have stated so at some point.
I wrote " when you think what the Church and Sisters got up to and the horrors they all committed".
As an aside I wrote, "I mean chucking dead kids in to a sewer tank,---Jesus!"
Ok, if it really seems believable to you that the Bon Secours sisters were chucking dead children into a sewer tank, then I don't think any rational argument is going to change your mind. That sounds more like an image of nuns taken from a 1970s B movie than any reality. (Hint - in reality, nuns tend to be very religious about the burying of the dead, no matter how nasty they may be to the living.)
Between the two of us, we have hijacked this thread quite enough, so I'll say no more.
Ok, if it really seems believable to you that the Bon Secours sisters were chucking dead children into a sewer tank, then I don't think any rational argument is going to change your mind. That sounds more like an image of nuns taken from a 1970s B movie than any reality. (Hint - in reality, nuns tend to be very religious about the burying of the dead, no matter how nasty they may be to the living.)
Between the two of us, we have hijacked this thread quite enough, so I'll say no more.
No, facts will change my beliefs, please don't try an minimise any of the horror stories that are coming out of Ireland as to the care of their kids during the,40,50s and 60s, not all the victims are lying.
Edit, A few years ago many of us would not have believed any of the cruelty stories committed/mated out by the Church, Nuns in Ireland and the UK, I know I wouldn't have, it was facts that changed my mind.
Its all very well saying its the courts who decide not social services, but in a court situation often the judge will be swayed by the evidence of 'experts. experts who charge to give their opinions and who side with ss for various reasons A if they don't give the right opinion ss will choose another expert and they could lose their lucrative contracts, and B a professional will usually believe another professional rather then say the word of a parent or relative, there have been several incidences where the expert hasn't even met or spoken with the parent or child and only relies on the ss report.
There was an incident where a an expert concluded that a father had hurt his child by watching him being intervewed on television.
and of course there are no such things as vindictive lying social workers
No I didn't, I stated my beliefs, my opinion and I believe that the sisters did dump kids into a sewer tank, I gave no hint it was a fact or wrote it that way.
Had I known it to be a fact I would have stated so at some point.
I wrote " when you think what the Church and Sisters got up to and the horrors they all committed".
As an aside I wrote, "I mean chucking dead kids in to a sewer tank,---Jesus!"
I believe that.
We will wait and see as to the full facts.[/QUO
You tried to back up your opinion with evidence but when that's exposed as flawed you claim its just your opinion that children were dumped in a sewage tank.
As there aren't any facts to back up your opinion what is this opinion based on?
No, facts will change my beliefs, please don't try an minimise any of the horror stories that are coming out of Ireland as to the care of their kids during the,40,50s and 60s, not all the victims are lying.
Edit, A few years ago many of us would not have believed any of the cruelty stories committed/mated out by the Church, Nuns in Ireland and the UK, I know I wouldn't have, it was facts that changed my mind.
Perhaps you should stick to facts then. Such as there is no evidence that nuns threw the bodies of children into a sewage tank.
A little bit of research would have helped you here but it seems you believed the original story then ignored the rest. Maybe it didn't fit in with what you want to believe.
God bless this man :-)
Anyone with the love for their kids, grit, energy and wherewithal to make such a huge move to protect their kids from the system and keep their family together, enough to uproot and move country, probably has the ability, (maybe with proper support) to be a great great parent
I disagree. I think it's concerning that families who have been identified with children at potential risk within the home environment should be assisted in avoiding assessment and possible action being taken to protect the child.
Social Workers don't drive around looking to steal kids. These children are potentially at risk and should remain within the system and, if need be, removed from their parents if necessary.
You tried to back up your opinion with evidence but when that's exposed as flawed you claim its just your opinion that children were dumped in a sewage tank.
As there aren't any facts to back up your opinion what is this opinion based on?
Perhaps you should stick to facts then. Such as there is no evidence that nuns threw the bodies of children into a sewage tank.
A little bit of research would have helped you here but it seems you believed the original story then ignored the rest. Maybe it didn't fit in with what you want to believe.
We will have to wait and see.
I didn't believe the original story in as much there was exaggerations from Ms Corless and the media.
I'm accept Ms Corless may have been misrepresented, equally the original interviewer stated they had an original audio recording of the interview.
My understanding from the Forbes article Ms. Corless was offered a complaints procedure, she declined this.
I do believe skeletons of kids were found in a sewage tank or septic pit.
I disagree. I think it's concerning that families who have been identified with children at potential risk within the home environment should be assisted in avoiding assessment and possible action being taken to protect the child.
Social Workers don't drive around looking to steal kids. These children are potentially at risk and should remain within the system and, if need be, removed from their parents if necessary.
What experience do you have of social services? From what I've seen they do often take children from loving homes, don't provide any help to the parents except to police them and patronise them, and threaten to remove kids. The focus should be on keeping families together but it is NOT because of the possibility of forced adoption. Ss can cause mental health problems in parents and cause so much stress the family ends up suffering more as a result of their 'care'. From your post I'd guess you are either a social worker or have never seen it in action from the other side
I didn't believe the original story in as much there was exaggerations from Ms Corless and the media.
I'm accept Ms Corless may have been misrepresented, equally the original interviewer stated they had an original audio recording of the interview.
My understanding from the Forbes article Ms. Corless was offered a complaints procedure, she declined this.
I do believe skeletons of kids were found in a sewage tank or septic pit.
Skeletons were found and the inquiry has to uncover how they got there. It's too quick and ill informed to state dead babies were 'chucked' into a sewage tank at this stage. Lets wait and see
And the care system and the state always knows best what is best?
Of course not. They're human, they're underfunded, overworkedetc. They make mistakes and when they do its disastrous.
At the same time, every day thousands of social workers do an excellent job helping families and children. Only that doesn't make a good story for certain newspapers so you don't get to hear about it, unless you happen to work with social services.
You obviously missed the documentary on the subject a while back. It included, for example, children with rare medical conditions which cause bones to break easily being taken away from home and forcibly adopted, only for the broken bones to continue and the condition then to be diagnosed. Too late then for the parents who can never get their child back.
I once worked in a GP surgery where we had such a case. The child's parents were fantastic, caring people who loved their child dearly. It was sickening the way they were treated. Their little boy had to go to foster parents which traumatised him whilst the parents were put through hell trying to prove they had never hurt their son. I have never (and hope I never see again) a family so distressed. This went on for over 6 months whilst the 'experts' did the tests and finally found the boy did have a medical condition causing his bones to break.
They did get him back eventually but I always remember the social services woman saying to me 'Ah well, if it means putting one family on the line so be it, I get it right in 30% of cases and they'll get over it'. I was speechless.
What experience do you have of social services? From what I've seen they do often take children from loving homes, don't provide any help to the parents except to police them and patronise them, and threaten to remove kids. The focus should be on keeping families together but it is NOT because of the possibility of forced adoption. Ss can cause mental health problems in parents and cause so much stress the family ends up suffering more as a result of their 'care'. From your post I'd guess you are either a social worker or have never seen it in action from the other side
Sadly the notion that children are better off with their families is not always true. Some parents are either unwilling or unable to provide the level of care to a child to enable them to thrive. That is why we need families to stay within the system so assessments can be made and help offered and, yes if deemed necessary to the well being of the child removed from parents care, either temporarily or permanently.
They did get him back eventually but I always remember the social services woman saying to me 'Ah well, if it means putting one family on the line so be it, I get it right in 30% of cases and they'll get over it'. I was speechless.
This attitude is common sadly
The problem is since eg the baby p case, they tend to err on the side of caution, not realising they are DESTROYING families in the process causing immeasurable trauma to all concerned.
Sadly the notion that children are better off with their families is not always true. Some parents are either unwilling or unable to provide the level of care to a child to enable them to thrive. That is why we need families to stay within the system so assessments can be made and help offered and, yes if deemed necessary to the well being of the child removed from parents care, either temporarily or permanently.
The problem is, the focus is all on risk risk risk risk risk risk risk
The focus should be on helping the family thrive as a unit. The aim should be to provide support to parents and kids to enable this to happen. But it is NOT. It is just about assessing risks, deciding whether the case should be referred to ' the reporter ', and whether the kids should be removed. if there wasn't this option, except in the most extreme of cases, They might try a bit harder. They really do remove kids on a whim of the 'experts' deem the risk high enough. Often while the kid is in her mother's arms, newborn. It is disgusting, shocking, horrific and inhuman.
The 'experts' are all so scared they will end up in the papers if something does go wrong that they are forced to act this way at meetings, trained to see the tiniest thing as a risk. Banning the forced adoption would allow them the space to do their jobs properly and help the families. I'm not blaming individual social workers here. The system is really messed up
You are not even prepared to acknowledge that there are many cases of incorrect judgement by Social Services, nor have you commented on the UK being the only country in Europe to sanction forced adoption.
Not at all. I'm just pointing out the flaw in your reasoning. If social services aren't competent enough to get all their decisions right (that in itself is an acknowledgement of their mistakes) then why do you think this foundation is immune to the same mistakes? Sidestepping court ordered interventions seems very likely to end up aiding and abetting child abuse and neglect.
The problem with many stories about SS is that the family can reveal what they like and Social Services are forbidden from disclosing details. I remember a particular case of a family fleeing to Ireland where SS planned to take a baby because the mother would be the primary carer alone with the baby for a significant amount of time, and she had significant learning difficulties. The family argued that the dad would be there to support her mornings and evenings and that her disabilities weren't that severe. The problem being, of course they would say that, and they couldn't necessarily that the mum could unintentionally harm her child through lack on mental capacity. Now that's not necessarily a reason to remove a baby, and it's not a nice thing to say, but if it's the truth then no wonder SS were involved. Loving a child doesn't mean you can be a good parent to it.
Comments
This particular grave has been known about since 1975 by the towns folk.
I don't believe the boys found hundreds of skeletons.
I am convinced as I can be the men as boys did find skeletons in a sewage tank not a burial shaft and IMO shouldn't have been there.
Even the Forbes interview, which I had already read concede the man might be correct in his recollection as to the sewage tank angle and to use such a method is not alright.
That some bodies were dumped by the mother and baby home, I'm in no doubt.
I also believe Ms Corless did say what she said in her first interview although she has has amended her story to put her version straight.
But I also realise the media ran with and exaggerated the story.
I was already aware the Irish Government had set up a Commission of Inquiry in to the homes but I fear this is just a face saving exercise as so many of these type of inquiries are.
So much of S/Ireland is still in denial when it come to the abuses mated out by the Church and Sisters, I include enslavement in that criticism but the UK is as guilty in such practises as are other countries.
As you write, lets try the novel approach and wait and see.
Anyone with the love for their kids, grit, energy and wherewithal to make such a huge move to protect their kids from the system and keep their family together, enough to uproot and move country, probably has the ability, (maybe with proper support) to be a great great parent
Personally, it wouldn't surprise me if the workmen who built the housing estate found those bones and quietly moved them into the "sewerage tank" in which they were found so they could avoid the risk of the whole site being declared off limits for building and their jobs being lost. That has happened before in the area too, unfortunately. Its not very nice, but I suppose the workmen thought that the famine victims were already beyond help, whereas they still had mouths to feed.
However, my private suspicion about that has no more evidence than yours about the sewerage tank, so let's just wait and see.
I'm just politely asking you, can you please not post that again? Unless, of course, we actually see evidence of such a thing, in which case I will be saying it too.
Had I known it to be a fact I would have stated so at some point.
I wrote " when you think what the Church and Sisters got up to and the horrors they all committed".
As an aside I wrote, "I mean chucking dead kids in to a sewer tank,---Jesus!"
I believe that.
We will wait and see as to the full facts.
Between the two of us, we have hijacked this thread quite enough, so I'll say no more.
Edit, A few years ago many of us would not have believed any of the cruelty stories committed/mated out by the Church, Nuns in Ireland and the UK, I know I wouldn't have, it was facts that changed my mind.
There was an incident where a an expert concluded that a father had hurt his child by watching him being intervewed on television.
and of course there are no such things as vindictive lying social workers
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10778971/Father-wins-damages-after-social-worker-falsely-accused-him-of-abusing-daughter.html
Perhaps you should stick to facts then. Such as there is no evidence that nuns threw the bodies of children into a sewage tank.
A little bit of research would have helped you here but it seems you believed the original story then ignored the rest. Maybe it didn't fit in with what you want to believe.
I disagree. I think it's concerning that families who have been identified with children at potential risk within the home environment should be assisted in avoiding assessment and possible action being taken to protect the child.
Social Workers don't drive around looking to steal kids. These children are potentially at risk and should remain within the system and, if need be, removed from their parents if necessary.
You are not far off the mark applying this to our legal system as a whole, especially when considering the deliberate and unending cuts to legal aid.
In the absence of factual evidence what's this belief based on?
We will have to wait and see.
I didn't believe the original story in as much there was exaggerations from Ms Corless and the media.
I'm accept Ms Corless may have been misrepresented, equally the original interviewer stated they had an original audio recording of the interview.
My understanding from the Forbes article Ms. Corless was offered a complaints procedure, she declined this.
I do believe skeletons of kids were found in a sewage tank or septic pit.
What experience do you have of social services? From what I've seen they do often take children from loving homes, don't provide any help to the parents except to police them and patronise them, and threaten to remove kids. The focus should be on keeping families together but it is NOT because of the possibility of forced adoption. Ss can cause mental health problems in parents and cause so much stress the family ends up suffering more as a result of their 'care'. From your post I'd guess you are either a social worker or have never seen it in action from the other side
Skeletons were found and the inquiry has to uncover how they got there. It's too quick and ill informed to state dead babies were 'chucked' into a sewage tank at this stage. Lets wait and see
Of course not. They're human, they're underfunded, overworkedetc. They make mistakes and when they do its disastrous.
At the same time, every day thousands of social workers do an excellent job helping families and children. Only that doesn't make a good story for certain newspapers so you don't get to hear about it, unless you happen to work with social services.
I once worked in a GP surgery where we had such a case. The child's parents were fantastic, caring people who loved their child dearly. It was sickening the way they were treated. Their little boy had to go to foster parents which traumatised him whilst the parents were put through hell trying to prove they had never hurt their son. I have never (and hope I never see again) a family so distressed. This went on for over 6 months whilst the 'experts' did the tests and finally found the boy did have a medical condition causing his bones to break.
They did get him back eventually but I always remember the social services woman saying to me 'Ah well, if it means putting one family on the line so be it, I get it right in 30% of cases and they'll get over it'. I was speechless.
Sadly the notion that children are better off with their families is not always true. Some parents are either unwilling or unable to provide the level of care to a child to enable them to thrive. That is why we need families to stay within the system so assessments can be made and help offered and, yes if deemed necessary to the well being of the child removed from parents care, either temporarily or permanently.
The problem is since eg the baby p case, they tend to err on the side of caution, not realising they are DESTROYING families in the process causing immeasurable trauma to all concerned.
The problem is, the focus is all on risk risk risk risk risk risk risk
The focus should be on helping the family thrive as a unit. The aim should be to provide support to parents and kids to enable this to happen. But it is NOT. It is just about assessing risks, deciding whether the case should be referred to ' the reporter ', and whether the kids should be removed. if there wasn't this option, except in the most extreme of cases, They might try a bit harder. They really do remove kids on a whim of the 'experts' deem the risk high enough. Often while the kid is in her mother's arms, newborn. It is disgusting, shocking, horrific and inhuman.
The 'experts' are all so scared they will end up in the papers if something does go wrong that they are forced to act this way at meetings, trained to see the tiniest thing as a risk. Banning the forced adoption would allow them the space to do their jobs properly and help the families. I'm not blaming individual social workers here. The system is really messed up
Not at all. I'm just pointing out the flaw in your reasoning. If social services aren't competent enough to get all their decisions right (that in itself is an acknowledgement of their mistakes) then why do you think this foundation is immune to the same mistakes? Sidestepping court ordered interventions seems very likely to end up aiding and abetting child abuse and neglect.