Has anyone mentioned ATOS yet? Surely part of the issue is that ATOS assessments have been passing severely disabled and ill people as fit for work when they're clearly not?
The failings of ATOS aren't pertinent to this argument so why would you expect ATOS to figure in this thread?
Do we want a society where disabled people earn as much from the government as people who have to work long hours every day in hell hole jobs?
I believe in fairness and that's not fair to people that don't have disabilities.
???? Who says disabled people don't work long hours every day in hell hole jobs?
Also hell hole jobs don't tend to pay that much so there are many non disabled people earning more from the government (public sector) than those in these jobs. Why shouldn't disabled people?
And lord F soon backed tracked about what he said "To be clear, all disabled people should be paid at least the minimum wage, without exception, and I accept that it is offensive to suggest anything else." So in other words shit i have been caught out,
Caught out for doing what? Musing whilst trying to answer a question? Wow...what a crime.
If we go back to the original question he was asked about people with diminished mental capability wanting to work but not getting the chance - what are the options?
The failings of ATOS aren't pertinent to this argument so why would you expect ATOS to figure in this thread?
Because if such people are being passed off as fit for work, is it any surprise that some people would look at their capabilities and think they're not worth the NMW?
Caught out for doing what? Musing whilst trying to answer a question? Wow...what a crime.
If we go back to the original question he was asked about people with diminished mental capability wanting to work but not getting the chance - what are the options?
He got caught out by answering a question, that should not have been asked in the first place, ( how can a buisness get round paying NMW to disabled people because we dont see these people are WORTH the NMW ) Instead of saying that would be unfair and illegal to do that he said yes i know the group you mean and agreed they are not WORTH the NMW and would go away a think ( find ) away these buisnesses could pay less than the NMW. And i wonder if he and the person even know the differance between learning difficulties, and learning disabilites i dont it.
He got caught out by answering a question, that should not have been asked in the first place, ( how can a buisness get round paying NMW to disabled people because we dont see these people are WORTH the NMW ) Instead of saying that would be unfair and illegal to do that he said yes i know the group you mean and agreed they are not WORTH the NMW and would go away a think ( find ) away these buisnesses could pay less than the NMW. And i wonder if he and the person even know the differance between learning difficulties, and learning disabilites i dont it.
I don't know either, but Labour's cheap attempt to deflect attention from Milibean's conference speech has backfired in a spectacular fashion if last night's Question Time is anything to go by.
In many of the discussions about this commentators have mentioned that Lord Freud was discussing Severe Mental Disability. It's unclear if this means Learning Disability or Mental illness (or both). Would there not be issues of capacity and consent to deal with?
If someone is so disabled they are classed as Severely Learning Disabled then they likely would lack the capacity to consent to be paid £2 per hour.
Having minor learning difficulties & from time to time help a local charity who help people with learning problems, I say about third are in paid work on the minimum wage or a bit more. The majority of those are part time but many are offered overtime
The next bunch I say are those who do voluntary work but can have a wage job. The reason why they don't have a wage job is two reasons. 1, they find it hard to find a job & 2, they cannot really be bothered although it could be a combination of the two.
Thirdly & this group will be those that Lord Freud will be talking about, are those who have say major speech problems, cannot tell the time, cannot read &have trouble with money in general but are enthusiastic & want to work & earn a bit of cash.
These people can work but for one reason or another an employer cannot justify the minimum wage but is happy to work say on a local farm or washing cars as long as the government makes up the difference.
And lastly those who just cannot work.
For me the wording of Lord Freud was wrong & I guess he was coming up with ideas but mencap have raised this issue in the past.
Having minor learning difficulties & from time to time help a local charity who help people with learning problems, I say about third are in paid work on the minimum wage or a bit more. The majority of those are part time but many are offered overtime
The next bunch I say are those who do voluntary work but can have a wage job. The reason why they don't have a wage job is two reasons. 1, they find it hard to find a job & 2, they cannot really be bothered although it could be a combination of the two.
Thirdly & this group will be those that Lord Freud will be talking about, are those who have say major speech problems, cannot tell the time, cannot read &have trouble with money in general but are enthusiastic & want to work & earn a bit of cash.
These people can work but for one reason or another an employer cannot justify the minimum wage but is happy to work say on a local farm or washing cars as long as the government makes up the difference.
And lastly those who just cannot work.
For me the wording of Lord Freud was wrong & I guess he was coming up with ideas but mencap have raised this issue in the past.
Since when has a major speech problems, cannot tell the time, cannot read &have trouble with money in general, stopped anyone being able to wash a car, and you dont need to be able to do any of these things to be able to wash a car, so this makes this person only worth £2 instead of NMW
Since when has a major speech problems, cannot tell the time, cannot read &have trouble with money in general, stopped anyone being able to wash a car, and you dont need to be able to do any of these things to be able to wash a car, so this makes this person only worth £2 instead of NMW
So you are all for exploiting Disabled people are you then?, well I hope you have a very nice Christmas with the millions you have and I hope the rest of you Tories on here do.
As for those of us who are Disabled and only getting paid £2 and if you are unable to afford a good Christmas why don't we start a brand new charity of going to rob a rich Tory as they can very clearly from some of the comments on here afford it twice over, anyway the rich Tories do not need their millions as they can easily afford to live on £2 and are as good as telling us all they can.
In many of the discussions about this commentators have mentioned that Lord Freud was discussing Severe Mental Disability. It's unclear if this means Learning Disability or Mental illness (or both). .
Disability rights campaigner Kaliya Franklin told the BBC yesterday that Lord Freud "doesn't know the difference between Mental Health and Learning Disability".
He got caught out by answering a question, that should not have been asked in the first place, ( how can a buisness get round paying NMW to disabled people because we dont see these people are WORTH the NMW ) Instead of saying that would be unfair and illegal to do that he said yes i know the group you mean and agreed they are not WORTH the NMW and would go away a think ( find ) away these buisnesses could pay less than the NMW. And i wonder if he and the person even know the differance between learning difficulties, and learning disabilites i dont it.
So you are all for exploiting Disabled people are you then?, well I hope you have a very nice Christmas with the millions you have and I hope the rest of you Tories on here do.
As for those of us who are Disabled and only getting paid £2 and if you are unable to afford a good Christmas why don't we start a brand new charity of going to rob a rich Tory as they can very clearly from some of the comments on here afford it twice over, anyway the rich Tories do not need their millions as they can easily afford to live on £2 and are as good as telling us all they can.
NO i was pointing out that NO one needs good speech or read or tell the time to wash a car and are WORTH the same as someone who can do these things, So a person should NOT be paid £2 to do this job and should be paid at least NMW
Underneath that PR veneer, Labour are just as rotten and vile as the Conservatives and Lib Dems. For example, it was Labour who first employed welfare slasher Lord Freud to go after costly disabled vermin (as they saw it) and it was Labour that started the programme of closing Remploy factories and throwing disabled people on the unemployment scrap heap.
If anyone sticks to the three main parties at the next general election then they will be voting for a pile of steaming Alsation poo or a pile of steaming Labrador poor or a pile of steaming Dachshund poo (Lib Dems, of course). Those three stale parties are all as bad as each other.
Labour might have employed him but can you point out any cuts on the Disabled that they did in their time in power?, I can not think of any where as I can come out with quite a list for the Tories.
As for the man himself and why did he move from Labour to the Tories?, could it possibly be because he has Tory views and as pointed out in a post earlier in this thread Gordon Brown did not agree with what he wanted to do where as the Tories agree fully with his views as has been shown from the cuts they have come out with on the Disabled already.
Also how can you actually criticise a party who came up with the Minimum Wage and are now planning a Living Wage unless of course you support UKIP and are quite well off for money so all you care about is immigration as I see you say you are not going to vote for any of the main three parties in next year's election.
Yes i did, And it was made very plain that the person asking the question was not willing to pay someone NMW because he did not think these people were worth that much, and Lord F was agreeing with him. They want to exploit these people, who in most cases would not even know what being exploited is or means
It is refreshing to see that the overwhelming majority of people (79%) in today's yougov survey think that the same minimum wage should apply to people with and without disabilities while only 12% thought that there should be different levels.
Although there has been significant progress for disabled people over the last 30 years (which is certainly at risk of going into reverse at present), they are disadvantaged in pretty much all walks of life, especially in the area of employment.
It is about time that there was more effort put into stopping the discrimination and ignorance of so many employers with regard to employing disabled people. We all know that even the supposed experts in the field are failing dismally to help via the Work Programme.
However, even Iain Duncan Smith acknowledges that
If you employ someone with disabilities they are more likely to stay with you than a person who does not have disabilities. They take fewer holidays. They work longer hours. They are more productive than most able bodied people. You get more out of them and they give you more back because they're so proud to have got the job, They want to work at it.... I was startled by the degree to which somebody with disabilities actually is so much more productive in work than somebody without.
It is a shame that he has not been able to get this into the mainstream media as it might just stop some of the prejudice and ignorance that disabled people are facing.
I would just like to point out that I am actually Disabled/have a Disability as I have Asperger Syndrome as well as an underlying condition for which I have been in trouble with the Police and nobody would want to employ me as the above makes it very hard for me to be employed as I am unable to go anywhere without Mum and Dad.
As for my political views I have obviously seen in the past under Thatcher and Major as well as now under Cameron just how Anti-Union and Anti- Union Rights they are hence wanting to tear up the Human Rights Act, as they have in the past and clearly from what Cameron wants to do go back to the days where companies can exploit workers etc.
What a difference a Labour government made in the way of the Minimum Wage, which Tories such as Peter Bone are all for getting rid of and did you see him on Have I Got News For You when asked how much he paid an employee who worked for his company?. Under the Minimum Wage where as his wife is a much different case as she got along with him millions. Says it all really.
I also remember the cold winter of 1991 the year in which Major had the cheek to say it needed to be freezing for a certain number of days in order to get any help, compare this to The Winter Fuel Allowance brought in by Labour and yet people or at least the Tories complained it was not enough?.
The a couple got £200 each where as only one member gets £200 due to Cameron's cuts which has cut it down and yet where are those saying it is not enough?.
That is why I will vote Labour and will always vote Labour as I just do not agree with those who get millions and laugh at the poor and then pretend they understand the suffering we are going through, excuse me but if you really understood you would start by paying NHS workers an across the board a 1% pay rise.
However my Nan voted Tory as does my Dad's brother and my Mum's sister and Brother where as my Dad has seen through the unfairness of past Tory governments and corruption which is why he votes Labour as does my Mum.
It was the reference to 'Mentally damaged individuals' that annoyed me.
what reference would you be happy with, then.
Are we never allowed to identify differences and special factors that affect people? It amazes me that referring to people as "coloured" causes offence.
I would just like to point out that I am actually Disabled/have a Disability as I have Asperger Syndrome as well as an underlying condition for which I have been in trouble with the Police and nobody would want to employ me as the above makes it very hard for me to be employed as I am unable to go anywhere without Mum and Dad.
As for my political views I have obviously seen in the past under Thatcher and Major as well as now under Cameron just how Anti-Union and Anti- Union Rights they are hence wanting to tear up the Human Rights Act, as they have in the past and clearly from what Cameron wants to do go back to the days where companies can exploit workers etc.
What a difference a Labour government made in the way of the Minimum Wage, which Tories such as Peter Bone are all for getting rid of and did you see him on Have I Got News For You when asked how much he paid an employee who worked for his company?. Under the Minimum Wage where as his wife is a much different case as she got along with him millions. Says it all really.
I also remember the cold winter of 1991 the year in which Major had the cheek to say it needed to be freezing for a certain number of days in order to get any help, compare this to The Winter Fuel Allowance brought in by Labour and yet people or at least the Tories complained it was not enough?.
The a couple got £200 each where as only one member gets £200 due to Cameron's cuts which has cut it down and yet where are those saying it is not enough?.
That is why I will vote Labour and will always vote Labour as I just do not agree with those who get millions and laugh at the poor and then pretend they understand the suffering we are going through, excuse me but if you really understood you would start by paying NHS workers an across the board a 1% pay rise.
However my Nan voted Tory as does my Dad's brother and my Mum's sister and Brother where as my Dad has seen through the unfairness of past Tory governments and corruption which is why he votes Labour as does my Mum.
I think the Conservatives are much maligned.
Under Thatcher Incapacity benefit became substantially higher than unemployment benefit, so directly giving those unable to work due to disability or ill health more money. Thatcher also introduced care in the community and the independent living fund a sea change in how the ill and disabled were treated by society, no longer were they to be out of sight out of mind locked away, but to live as equals as part of the community and society. While Major introduced Disability Living Allowance as another enabling benefit, to enable people to live in the community, and take part in society. Both Thatcher and Major also protected the benefits of the ill and disabled during economic recessions. The Conservatives of the past should not be judged by the actions of the likes of Cameron, Osborne, Ian Duncan Smith and Lord Freud.
Disability rights campaigner Kaliya Franklin told the BBC yesterday that Lord Freud "doesn't know the difference between Mental Health and Learning Disability".
Spot on as usual Kaliya. I still cannot believe that anybody could support Freud but Kaliya is right that this view tends to come from people who are ignorant of what disability is. I bet those people would be in uproar if the same suggestion was applied to older workers.
It is refreshing to see that the overwhelming majority of people (79%) in today's yougov survey think that the same minimum wage should apply to people with and without disabilities while only 12% thought that there should be different levels.
Although there has been significant progress for disabled people over the last 30 years (which is certainly at risk of going into reverse at present), they are disadvantaged in pretty much all walks of life, especially in the area of employment.
It is about time that there was more effort put into stopping the discrimination and ignorance of so many employers with regard to employing disabled people. We all know that even the supposed experts in the field are failing dismally to help via the Work Programme.
However, even Iain Duncan Smith acknowledges that
It is a shame that he has not been able to get this into the mainstream media as it might just stop some of the prejudice and ignorance that disabled people are facing.
So you are congratulating IDS on saying that disabled people are more productive because they work longer hours and take fewer holidays.
If the job is a minimum wage job haven't you just acknowledged that disabled people work below minimum wage? By choice.
So what's the problem with Lord Freud's comments again?
Yes i did, And it was made very plain that the person asking the question was not willing to pay someone NMW because he did not think these people were worth that much, and Lord F was agreeing with him.
That's quite correct.
The person asking the question couldn't justify paying the NMW, but was evidently interested in being able to employ the disabled person in some manner. And the disabled person in question was evidently also keen to be employed. As such, both disabled potential employee and potential employer are looking for a solution.
Freud agreed with this, acknowledged the "lack of worth" which is entirely economic - there was no suggestion of "moral worthlessness" - and mentioned a possible compromise which would help both parties, employer and employee, achieve what they want.
They want to exploit these people, who in most cases would not even know what being exploited is or means
This is the line that Labour sought to peddle, but it's plainly false and has now moreorless fallen apart, so why stick with it? There is no suggestion anywhere that the lack of worth was of a human or moral nature.
Looking for a solution which results in employing someone who otherwise couldn't be employed but who wants to be employed is the absolute epitome of common sense.
Comments
The failings of ATOS aren't pertinent to this argument so why would you expect ATOS to figure in this thread?
???? Who says disabled people don't work long hours every day in hell hole jobs?
Also hell hole jobs don't tend to pay that much so there are many non disabled people earning more from the government (public sector) than those in these jobs. Why shouldn't disabled people?
Caught out for doing what? Musing whilst trying to answer a question? Wow...what a crime.
If we go back to the original question he was asked about people with diminished mental capability wanting to work but not getting the chance - what are the options?
Because if such people are being passed off as fit for work, is it any surprise that some people would look at their capabilities and think they're not worth the NMW?
He got caught out by answering a question, that should not have been asked in the first place, ( how can a buisness get round paying NMW to disabled people because we dont see these people are WORTH the NMW ) Instead of saying that would be unfair and illegal to do that he said yes i know the group you mean and agreed they are not WORTH the NMW and would go away a think ( find ) away these buisnesses could pay less than the NMW. And i wonder if he and the person even know the differance between learning difficulties, and learning disabilites i dont it.
I don't know either, but Labour's cheap attempt to deflect attention from Milibean's conference speech has backfired in a spectacular fashion if last night's Question Time is anything to go by.
If someone is so disabled they are classed as Severely Learning Disabled then they likely would lack the capacity to consent to be paid £2 per hour.
The next bunch I say are those who do voluntary work but can have a wage job. The reason why they don't have a wage job is two reasons. 1, they find it hard to find a job & 2, they cannot really be bothered although it could be a combination of the two.
Thirdly & this group will be those that Lord Freud will be talking about, are those who have say major speech problems, cannot tell the time, cannot read &have trouble with money in general but are enthusiastic & want to work & earn a bit of cash.
These people can work but for one reason or another an employer cannot justify the minimum wage but is happy to work say on a local farm or washing cars as long as the government makes up the difference.
And lastly those who just cannot work.
For me the wording of Lord Freud was wrong & I guess he was coming up with ideas but mencap have raised this issue in the past.
Since when has a major speech problems, cannot tell the time, cannot read &have trouble with money in general, stopped anyone being able to wash a car, and you dont need to be able to do any of these things to be able to wash a car, so this makes this person only worth £2 instead of NMW
So you are all for exploiting Disabled people are you then?, well I hope you have a very nice Christmas with the millions you have and I hope the rest of you Tories on here do.
As for those of us who are Disabled and only getting paid £2 and if you are unable to afford a good Christmas why don't we start a brand new charity of going to rob a rich Tory as they can very clearly from some of the comments on here afford it twice over, anyway the rich Tories do not need their millions as they can easily afford to live on £2 and are as good as telling us all they can.
Disability rights campaigner Kaliya Franklin told the BBC yesterday that Lord Freud "doesn't know the difference between Mental Health and Learning Disability".
From 8mins20secs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04kztn7
Did you even read the question he was asked
NO i was pointing out that NO one needs good speech or read or tell the time to wash a car and are WORTH the same as someone who can do these things, So a person should NOT be paid £2 to do this job and should be paid at least NMW
Labour might have employed him but can you point out any cuts on the Disabled that they did in their time in power?, I can not think of any where as I can come out with quite a list for the Tories.
As for the man himself and why did he move from Labour to the Tories?, could it possibly be because he has Tory views and as pointed out in a post earlier in this thread Gordon Brown did not agree with what he wanted to do where as the Tories agree fully with his views as has been shown from the cuts they have come out with on the Disabled already.
Also how can you actually criticise a party who came up with the Minimum Wage and are now planning a Living Wage unless of course you support UKIP and are quite well off for money so all you care about is immigration as I see you say you are not going to vote for any of the main three parties in next year's election.
Although there has been significant progress for disabled people over the last 30 years (which is certainly at risk of going into reverse at present), they are disadvantaged in pretty much all walks of life, especially in the area of employment.
It is about time that there was more effort put into stopping the discrimination and ignorance of so many employers with regard to employing disabled people. We all know that even the supposed experts in the field are failing dismally to help via the Work Programme.
However, even Iain Duncan Smith acknowledges that
It is a shame that he has not been able to get this into the mainstream media as it might just stop some of the prejudice and ignorance that disabled people are facing.
As for my political views I have obviously seen in the past under Thatcher and Major as well as now under Cameron just how Anti-Union and Anti- Union Rights they are hence wanting to tear up the Human Rights Act, as they have in the past and clearly from what Cameron wants to do go back to the days where companies can exploit workers etc.
What a difference a Labour government made in the way of the Minimum Wage, which Tories such as Peter Bone are all for getting rid of and did you see him on Have I Got News For You when asked how much he paid an employee who worked for his company?. Under the Minimum Wage where as his wife is a much different case as she got along with him millions. Says it all really.
I also remember the cold winter of 1991 the year in which Major had the cheek to say it needed to be freezing for a certain number of days in order to get any help, compare this to The Winter Fuel Allowance brought in by Labour and yet people or at least the Tories complained it was not enough?.
The a couple got £200 each where as only one member gets £200 due to Cameron's cuts which has cut it down and yet where are those saying it is not enough?.
That is why I will vote Labour and will always vote Labour as I just do not agree with those who get millions and laugh at the poor and then pretend they understand the suffering we are going through, excuse me but if you really understood you would start by paying NHS workers an across the board a 1% pay rise.
However my Nan voted Tory as does my Dad's brother and my Mum's sister and Brother where as my Dad has seen through the unfairness of past Tory governments and corruption which is why he votes Labour as does my Mum.
what reference would you be happy with, then.
Are we never allowed to identify differences and special factors that affect people? It amazes me that referring to people as "coloured" causes offence.
Under Thatcher Incapacity benefit became substantially higher than unemployment benefit, so directly giving those unable to work due to disability or ill health more money. Thatcher also introduced care in the community and the independent living fund a sea change in how the ill and disabled were treated by society, no longer were they to be out of sight out of mind locked away, but to live as equals as part of the community and society. While Major introduced Disability Living Allowance as another enabling benefit, to enable people to live in the community, and take part in society. Both Thatcher and Major also protected the benefits of the ill and disabled during economic recessions. The Conservatives of the past should not be judged by the actions of the likes of Cameron, Osborne, Ian Duncan Smith and Lord Freud.
Spot on as usual Kaliya. I still cannot believe that anybody could support Freud but Kaliya is right that this view tends to come from people who are ignorant of what disability is. I bet those people would be in uproar if the same suggestion was applied to older workers.
So you are congratulating IDS on saying that disabled people are more productive because they work longer hours and take fewer holidays.
If the job is a minimum wage job haven't you just acknowledged that disabled people work below minimum wage? By choice.
So what's the problem with Lord Freud's comments again?
That's quite correct.
The person asking the question couldn't justify paying the NMW, but was evidently interested in being able to employ the disabled person in some manner. And the disabled person in question was evidently also keen to be employed. As such, both disabled potential employee and potential employer are looking for a solution.
Freud agreed with this, acknowledged the "lack of worth" which is entirely economic - there was no suggestion of "moral worthlessness" - and mentioned a possible compromise which would help both parties, employer and employee, achieve what they want.
This is the line that Labour sought to peddle, but it's plainly false and has now moreorless fallen apart, so why stick with it? There is no suggestion anywhere that the lack of worth was of a human or moral nature.
Looking for a solution which results in employing someone who otherwise couldn't be employed but who wants to be employed is the absolute epitome of common sense.