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ched evans / andrew neil
gemma-the-husky
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I think Michael portillo has just run rings round the young Sheffield girl. Charlie Webster?
She is just wrong.
She is just wrong.
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gemma-the-husky
Posts: 18,116
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Tried to patronize... and got flattened by Portillo.
Any chance of context?
Thread title is Ched Evans / Andrew Neil
Then you talk about Michael Portillo and Charlie Webster
Apologies for my psychic powers not working
It is a common problem, people assume you saw a programme or have time to search for it or read through a long document
A couple of paragraphs saying what it is about and why you agree or disagree would help to get a decent discussion going more than the X is an idiot type of argument
Didn't see but he was a Sheff U player convicted of rape, she is involved with Sheff U but is threatening to pack it in if he returns to play for them, I think. Presumably Portillo was on the side of he's done the time.
Best PM we never had imho.
For anyone confused, it's regarding last night's episode of This Week:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04mlgx6/this-week-23102014
Ched Evans is an ex Sheffield United footballer who was convicted of rape and sent to prison for 2.5 years. He has recently been released and continues to profess his innocence.There's now talk about him returning to play football at the club.
Charlie Webster is some sort of patron at Sheffield and was arguing that a convicted rapist should not be playing professional football as they are role models for the millions of young men that watch football. Portillo was arguing that once you have served your punishment for your crime you should have a clean slate and be able to pick up your life from where you started. Webster stated that she is a strong supporter of rehabilitation and people having a second chance however pointed out that there are certain jobs (teacher/doctor) that a rape conviction would automatically bar you from for life and football should be one of them. Alan Johnson agreed, Portillo stuck to the (imo admirable) principle that once you've done your time you shouldn't be punished again.
Personally I don't she the issue as black and white. Just because you've served a prison sentence it doesn't mean that the repercussions of your actions have ended or that people can't take them into account when judging your suitability for certain roles. I strongly agree with Portillo that people shouldn't face public persecution on an ad-hoc basis depending on how much the media or social media dislikes you; however entertainment and sports industries should be able to take the popularity of people into account when deciding whether to hire them.
What about burglars and car thieves and vandals, most of us have had experience of at least one of those and I presume many play professional football. If it was the same man that had committed the rape against her I would understand and sympathise but it is not.
I can, but I also understand Portillo's and on balance I agree with him.
I know that law considers certain forms of theft to have the same severity as rape but I would argue that most people don't. Football fans have a reasonable right to express their opinion on what type of people they are going to cheer for every week - and unless someone has snuck in 'the right to be a professional footballer' into the ECHR I believe clubs should be responsive to that.
Thanks for the context. The OP was really a bit perplexing (and I still haven't worked out the Andrew Neil thing - was it on the Daily Politics). These things never are clear cut, but then the BBC was happy to give a starring role in Eastenders to someone who had been given a life sentence for murder, so maybe there are double standards around.
Well it seems to me clubs and fans are only really interested in one thing, how good the player is. The salient point here is once convicted of a crime, whatever it is, and having served the punishment for it should you still be punished for it thereafter. In this instance the footballer has afaik claimed he was innocent.
Joey Barton (professional thug) in the case of Alan Johnson, and the chanting fans in the case of Charlie Webster who actually blamed Ched Evans for the fans despicable behaviour!
With lobby groups you just don't get justice, you get either vengeance or it's a personal matter. In the case of Charlie Webster clearly both...
With Alan Johnson the classic "but that's different"
Michael Portillo was right, the justice system is the only place for justice. Look at sentencing though.
Like I said originally, it's not clear cut. The reality is that we do take certain crimes into consideration when judging what role a person can do once they have served their sentence. We dont' say to Gary Glitter "Ok, you've done your time; can you come and perform 'do you wanna be in my gang' at the MTV music awards". That's not punishment, it's a consequence of your conviction.
The football authorities should formally list what types of crimes it considers 'brings the game into disrepute' and the associated actions. Committing a rape whilst being a footballer should be an automatic ban from the professional game.
and portillo destroyed her argument easily
Ok, it's one of those threads. That's me done.
The point is as a victim of a crime does that mean you refuse to have association with anyone who has committed the same, or similar, crime. Not sure what the rest is meant to be.
In essence that would be condemning the majority for the actions of a minority. It would suggest that pro footballers are basically rapists.
Also it's just wrong to single out footballers.
This is the classic thing that the "This Week" programme was discussing, there is simply no justice outside the justice system. It becomes a personal matter and some people obviously have a low opinion of a whole footballing profession their judgement is clouded.
For all it's faults the only place for justice is the justice system, there is no place for it in footballing contracts....
I would have thought that history of convictions (either in criminal courts or by sporting bodies) would have taught us that...OTTOMH....Lester Piggott & Boris Becker (tax evaders), Hansie Cronjie (match fixing) & Chris Lewis (smuggling cocaine), Mike Tyson (rape) teach us that
And that's even before we mention names like Oscar Pistorious, Lance Armstrong and I believe even Phil The Dart Taylor has a criminal conviction.
Role models are those around us every day...those who work hard, pay their dues, keep their noses clean, treat others with respect and are there to shape and influence future generations by example and direct influence and guidance...not running round a pitch for ninety minutes or a track for forty seconds on the telly.