I find I don't have many friends/acquaintances who aren't a bit lefty or do more than pay lip service to a religion. It's not intentional, I just find I have more in common with those sorts of people. Although I must say I don't think I'm actually friends with a liberal - far to intolerant for me.
What are you on about now? The old guys I described are EXACTLY like that but if you cannot accept that there are people like that who support UKIP then that is not my problem and is no reason to accuse me of smugness or superiority. Is having a thin skin and paranoia compulsory for Kipsters now?
You do seem to like stereotyping and pigeon holing groups of people. Don't elderly people who go to the pub also support Labour and the Tories or the SNP?
Careful - if you spend too much time looking down on people you will get a sore neck.
Personally I would cast a very questioning eye over anyone who voted Tory.
But you have no qualms about supporting a party which started an illegal war which resulted in over one hundred thousand innocent civilians - men, women and children - dying and which led to the chaos we see in Iraq today with ISIS and ethnic cleansing. Nothing could be as shameful as that!
War criminality is easily forgiven it seems. Not all of us have such short memories thankfully.
... Slightly different when I am in England. There are a few gin sodden old buffers in Windsor who love UKIP but they also talk about horse whipping shoplifters and banning daytime TV!
The fact is, many people, including myself, have seen, experienced, pain from the likes of the Tories in the 80s. They hurt families and friends first hand. They destroyed communities.
Also in the 60s when they cleared whole communities out of west London, dumped them in essex, demolished their terraces and put up cheap estates in there place filled with people who had no connection with the areas, usually foreigners. Ripped out a big part of the soul of London.
I would never admit to be a UKIPer in public. I always play it safe. I support Labour, the BBC is great, Guardian is a great paper..islamic polish diversity in my area is so exciting and vibrant.... I would also never admit to supporting anyone but labour in my office. Also when I used to go out on the pull, I would always play the leftist card, girls seemed a lot more relaxed if I said I liked Tony Blair for some reason, even though to myself he seemed a damaged fanatic with serious mental health issues. All the middle classes I grew up with would do the same. Our parents would all vote Tory and we would try and act left wing to get accepted by the cool kids who always had weed.
The Holocaust is still too fresh to attempt to say anything remotely right wing perceivable in public.
I mean, did the "gin sodden old buffers have ukip badges" or did the poster say "excuse me gin sodden old buffers, just as a matter of interest, what political party do you love ?" Also, I suppose they were just conveniently talking about horse whipping shoplifters and banning daytime TV (WT... ? ), just at the time the poster saw them.
Like you do, when you see gin sodden old buffers in Windsor ^_^
I see similar leaps of reality every day on DS, like "Everybody I know thinks......" (insert specific argument). Have they discussed this specific argument with literally everybody they know ?
85% of friends, work colleagues ,blokes down the pub and the english builders doing my extension are voting UKIP . I have zilch problem socialising with the others! Makes for a good debate
But you have no qualms about supporting a party which started an illegal war which resulted in over one hundred thousand innocent civilians - men, women and children - dying and which led to the chaos we see in Iraq today with ISIS and ethnic cleansing. Nothing could be as shameful as that!
War criminality is easily forgiven it seems. Not all of us have such short memories thankfully.
We don't forget the war was supported by the Tories and the likes of Cameron voted for it without a moment's hesitation.
I find I don't have many friends/acquaintances who aren't a bit lefty or do more than pay lip service to a religion. It's not intentional, I just find I have more in common with those sorts of people. Although I must say I don't think I'm actually friends with a liberal - far to intolerant for me.
I suspect you would if that party had a direct negative effect in the past on you/your friends/family and were going to do so again in the future.I can very much see why some folk wouldn't care, but one also has to understand why others would.
Certain sections of society at the sharp end (often the poorest) have had a real horrific deal under certain parties.
85% of friends, work colleagues ,blokes down the pub and the english builders doing my extension are voting UKIP . I have zilch problem socialising with the others! Makes for a good debate
There certainly seems to have been a shift in the "bloke down the pub" demographic in those who say that they will vote for UKIP. Whether this is just the beer talking or not is hard to tell but I hardly hear anyone say that they will be voting Labour. A lot of the guys I drink with a self employed tradesmen (it's always useful to know a plumber, builder or electrician when you are useless at DIY) - your stereotypical "white van men".
The professional graduates I know are fairly evenly split between parties but Farage is really connecting with these skilled manual workers where his talk about cheap immigrant Labour and his "pint and a ****" image are popular..
We don't forget the war was supported by the Tories and the likes of Cameron voted for it without a moment's hesitation.
I sorry that argument doesn't wash....Labour were in power, Labour went into an illegal war only their own Labour Attorney general said was legal.....Labour put the spin out about us being minutes away from being blown up by weapons of mass destruction....The Labour spin machine (Alistair Campbell) was responsible for trying to change peoples views on the issue.....It was Labours war, they ultimately had the choice to go through with it....and Blair did and is being paid back by the Americans now and is a multi-millionaire many times over.....
'I suspect you would if that party had a direct negative effect in the past on you/your friends/family and were going to do so again in the future.I can very much see why some folk wouldn't care, but one also has to understand why others would.
Certain sections of society at the sharp end (often the poorest) have had a real horrific deal under certain parties.'
I think he was......12billion wasted on a failed NHS computer system.....mass uncontrolled immigration of 4million coming into the country in such a short space of time (two thirds of which from outside the EU!!!) not only causing our public services to
stretched to breaking and point (and still is) lowering wages of poor people, because these immigrants could afford to work for less!.....The Hospital Stafford scandal and the NHS superbugs that killed 1000s.....40 billion overspend on the MOD to help fund Labours Illegal war in Iraq that killed 100s of thousands of civilians and hundreds of our soldiers and is at least partly responsible for the troubles their now (nothing causes radicalisation as an occupying force killing civilians who are mixed up in the conflict even by mistake), Cash for honours, Bernie Eccleston. etc etc .......
How people can think Labour have any answers to our problems is beyond me...they haven't learnt anything....
The vast majority of people have no interest in politics what so ever....take Rochester and Strood ....every political party throwing the kitchen sink at the area and the Media awash with stories about it ....and still only 50percent bothered to turn out....says it all.....
Surely if the person was a true friend you could have a debate with them and at least try to change their views or even part with a difference of opinion.....someone isn't worth knowing or were they a friend in the first place if you cant agree to disagree on something?
I sorry that argument doesn't wash....Labour were in power, Labour went into an illegal war only their own Labour Attorney general said was legal.....Labour put the spin out about us being minutes away from being blown up by weapons of mass destruction....The Labour spin machine (Alistair Campbell) was responsible for trying to change peoples views on the issue.....It was Labours war, they ultimately had the choice to go through with it....and Blair did and is being paid back by the Americans now and is a multi-millionaire many times over.....
You can't get away with that rewriting of history.
139 Labour MPs rebelled, but only 15 Tories (albeit 3 shadow ministers had the honour to resign over it)
The Tories, under IDS, and backed by Hague, Howard and Cameron were either totally complicit in the decision or totally incompetent on not challenging the government. You can't have it both ways.
It was Labour's war, but supported hook line and sinker by the Conservatives.
Blair's biggest mistake, and totally destroyed his reputation and all the other good work he did.
You can't get away with that rewriting of history.
139 Labour MPs rebelled, but only 15 Tories (albeit 3 shadow ministers had the honour to resign over it)
The Tories, under IDS, and backed by Hague, Howard and Cameron were either totally complicit in the decision or totally incompetent on not challenging the government. You can't have it both ways.
It was Labour's war, but supported hook line and sinker by the Conservatives.
Blair's biggest mistake, and totally destroyed his reputation and all the other good work he did.
But Labour were in control of all the evidence coming from Iraq in regards to Wmd or were the tories?, Labour spun what was there (with the aid of the US), and were in control of all aspects of the war......I am sorry it was Labours war ultimately and nothing can get away from it......No one knows if the Tories would've waited for the Inspectors to carry on or not.....It was Labours responsibility no one else, (you must remember Labour had a massive majority) they didn't have to take us into war but they did.....The Tories may have been fools for supporting them but were the ones that invaded a country and left it in the mess after the war that it is in now.....
I have friends of all persuasions. Two of my favourites live in an unbelievably grim area in which they are about the only white Brits for a large radius. They complain about immigration non-stop, but are Labour dinosaurs. Would never vote anything else and would rather see UKIP with a majority on 33% of the vote than change the electoral system. Bless 'em.
I to tend to fall out with another friend who I've known for 36 years. We were fellow LibDems many years ago - I left the fold long ago, but he remains a EU fanatic and 100% loyal party member. He believes the more immigration the better - yet never, ever encounters it. He's lived in 2 places in his life - both white enclaves. He refuses to admit he was wrong about the Euro. He thinks we should be in Shengen. We do argue like crazy these days, which is a shame.
Anybody that would fall out with a friend for not having the same political views isn't worth knowing.
At least it is a good way of separating the wheat from the chaff.
Agree, I could have heated debates with friends over political views but I'd never fall out over them , everyone is entitled to an opinion.
But Labour were in control of all the evidence coming from Iraq in regards to Wmd or were the tories?, Labour spun what was there (with the aid of the US), and were in control of all aspects of the war......I am sorry it was Labours war ultimately and nothing can get away from it......No one knows if the Tories would've waited for the Inspectors to carry on or not.....It was Labours responsibility no one else, (you must remember Labour had a massive majority) they didn't have to take us into war but they did.....The Tories may have been fools for supporting them but were the ones that invaded a country and left it in the mess after the war that it is in now.....
We're going very off topic and rehashing arguments, but the opposition did not do its job by questioning the data. We don't know what they would have done if they were in power, but we do know that only 15 of the Tory MPs rebelled. If the Tories had not supported the war, then the 139 Labour rebels would have helped defeat the government. I'm not absolving Blair of any blame, but the Tories cannot escape the blame either. We also know that while in power they have been happy to kill people in Libya and wanted to kill people in Syria, but were prevented by Labour and some government rebels.
We're going very off topic and rehashing arguments, but the opposition did not do its job by questioning the data. We don't know what they would have done if they were in power, but we do know that only 15 of the Tory MPs rebelled. If the Tories had not supported the war, then the 139 Labour rebels would have helped defeat the government. I'm not absolving Blair of any blame, but the Tories cannot escape the blame either. We also know that while in power they have been happy to kill people in Libya and wanted to kill people in Syria, but were prevented by Labour and some government rebels.
And how much credit do you give the LibDems for opposing it?
I think we all know the answer to that one.
You are just taking your usual partisan approach. The Tories were not in power. Labour was. Labour produced the "evidence" for the invasion. The Tories were guilty of giving Blair too much credence. The blame lies firmly at his and his cronies' door, and no amount of revision will ever alter that.
A guy at work voted UKIP. I asked him why. He said it was for their European policies. He said he hated their other policies but didn't feel any other party served his anti-EU views. That's fine with me. He wants UKIP just for that but not for their other questionable policies.
Comments
You do seem to like stereotyping and pigeon holing groups of people. Don't elderly people who go to the pub also support Labour and the Tories or the SNP?
Careful - if you spend too much time looking down on people you will get a sore neck.
But you have no qualms about supporting a party which started an illegal war which resulted in over one hundred thousand innocent civilians - men, women and children - dying and which led to the chaos we see in Iraq today with ISIS and ethnic cleansing. Nothing could be as shameful as that!
War criminality is easily forgiven it seems. Not all of us have such short memories thankfully.
All made up of course.
Also in the 60s when they cleared whole communities out of west London, dumped them in essex, demolished their terraces and put up cheap estates in there place filled with people who had no connection with the areas, usually foreigners. Ripped out a big part of the soul of London.
I would never admit to be a UKIPer in public. I always play it safe. I support Labour, the BBC is great, Guardian is a great paper..islamic polish diversity in my area is so exciting and vibrant.... I would also never admit to supporting anyone but labour in my office. Also when I used to go out on the pull, I would always play the leftist card, girls seemed a lot more relaxed if I said I liked Tony Blair for some reason, even though to myself he seemed a damaged fanatic with serious mental health issues. All the middle classes I grew up with would do the same. Our parents would all vote Tory and we would try and act left wing to get accepted by the cool kids who always had weed.
The Holocaust is still too fresh to attempt to say anything remotely right wing perceivable in public.
I always wonder how they know this kind of stuff.
I mean, did the "gin sodden old buffers have ukip badges" or did the poster say "excuse me gin sodden old buffers, just as a matter of interest, what political party do you love ?" Also, I suppose they were just conveniently talking about horse whipping shoplifters and banning daytime TV (WT... ?
Like you do, when you see gin sodden old buffers in Windsor ^_^
I see similar leaps of reality every day on DS, like "Everybody I know thinks......" (insert specific argument). Have they discussed this specific argument with literally everybody they know ?
We don't forget the war was supported by the Tories and the likes of Cameron voted for it without a moment's hesitation.
A liberal is too intolerant for you
You must be a Marxist !
Talking about Labour again Jol?
There certainly seems to have been a shift in the "bloke down the pub" demographic in those who say that they will vote for UKIP. Whether this is just the beer talking or not is hard to tell but I hardly hear anyone say that they will be voting Labour. A lot of the guys I drink with a self employed tradesmen (it's always useful to know a plumber, builder or electrician when you are useless at DIY) - your stereotypical "white van men".
The professional graduates I know are fairly evenly split between parties but Farage is really connecting with these skilled manual workers where his talk about cheap immigrant Labour and his "pint and a ****" image are popular..
it looks like one in four people don't believe in democracy. shame on them.
re BIB, now you're just older.;-)
What happened to celebrating diversity?
I sorry that argument doesn't wash....Labour were in power, Labour went into an illegal war only their own Labour Attorney general said was legal.....Labour put the spin out about us being minutes away from being blown up by weapons of mass destruction....The Labour spin machine (Alistair Campbell) was responsible for trying to change peoples views on the issue.....It was Labours war, they ultimately had the choice to go through with it....and Blair did and is being paid back by the Americans now and is a multi-millionaire many times over.....
Certain sections of society at the sharp end (often the poorest) have had a real horrific deal under certain parties.'
I think he was......12billion wasted on a failed NHS computer system.....mass uncontrolled immigration of 4million coming into the country in such a short space of time (two thirds of which from outside the EU!!!) not only causing our public services to
stretched to breaking and point (and still is) lowering wages of poor people, because these immigrants could afford to work for less!.....The Hospital Stafford scandal and the NHS superbugs that killed 1000s.....40 billion overspend on the MOD to help fund Labours Illegal war in Iraq that killed 100s of thousands of civilians and hundreds of our soldiers and is at least partly responsible for the troubles their now (nothing causes radicalisation as an occupying force killing civilians who are mixed up in the conflict even by mistake), Cash for honours, Bernie Eccleston. etc etc .......
How people can think Labour have any answers to our problems is beyond me...they haven't learnt anything....
What has friendship got to do with politics?
Many friendships have ended for more trivial reasons.
The vast majority of people have no interest in politics what so ever....take Rochester and Strood ....every political party throwing the kitchen sink at the area and the Media awash with stories about it ....and still only 50percent bothered to turn out....says it all.....
Surely if the person was a true friend you could have a debate with them and at least try to change their views or even part with a difference of opinion.....someone isn't worth knowing or were they a friend in the first place if you cant agree to disagree on something?
You can't get away with that rewriting of history.
139 Labour MPs rebelled, but only 15 Tories (albeit 3 shadow ministers had the honour to resign over it)
The Tories, under IDS, and backed by Hague, Howard and Cameron were either totally complicit in the decision or totally incompetent on not challenging the government. You can't have it both ways.
It was Labour's war, but supported hook line and sinker by the Conservatives.
Blair's biggest mistake, and totally destroyed his reputation and all the other good work he did.
Ask the people who are saying they would disown "friends" whose voting intentions they don't approve of.
Personally I think that says more about the value of their friendship than anything else.
But Labour were in control of all the evidence coming from Iraq in regards to Wmd or were the tories?, Labour spun what was there (with the aid of the US), and were in control of all aspects of the war......I am sorry it was Labours war ultimately and nothing can get away from it......No one knows if the Tories would've waited for the Inspectors to carry on or not.....It was Labours responsibility no one else, (you must remember Labour had a massive majority) they didn't have to take us into war but they did.....The Tories may have been fools for supporting them but were the ones that invaded a country and left it in the mess after the war that it is in now.....
I to tend to fall out with another friend who I've known for 36 years. We were fellow LibDems many years ago - I left the fold long ago, but he remains a EU fanatic and 100% loyal party member. He believes the more immigration the better - yet never, ever encounters it. He's lived in 2 places in his life - both white enclaves. He refuses to admit he was wrong about the Euro. He thinks we should be in Shengen. We do argue like crazy these days, which is a shame.
Agree, I could have heated debates with friends over political views but I'd never fall out over them , everyone is entitled to an opinion.
We're going very off topic and rehashing arguments, but the opposition did not do its job by questioning the data. We don't know what they would have done if they were in power, but we do know that only 15 of the Tory MPs rebelled. If the Tories had not supported the war, then the 139 Labour rebels would have helped defeat the government. I'm not absolving Blair of any blame, but the Tories cannot escape the blame either. We also know that while in power they have been happy to kill people in Libya and wanted to kill people in Syria, but were prevented by Labour and some government rebels.
And how much credit do you give the LibDems for opposing it?
I think we all know the answer to that one.
You are just taking your usual partisan approach. The Tories were not in power. Labour was. Labour produced the "evidence" for the invasion. The Tories were guilty of giving Blair too much credence. The blame lies firmly at his and his cronies' door, and no amount of revision will ever alter that.