I think blaming countless UK ISIS recruits solely on internet indoctrination is very dangerous and a deliberate subterfuge.
Like with children from any religious household, indoctrination begins from birth.
Growing up as a Muslim in Bethnal Green, one is able to completely immerse one's self in Islam. The extra push to ISIS is not as vast as some FMs are hoping it is.
I suppose it's perfectly possible that ISIS use flirty fishing methods, ie get good looking males and females to attract lonely and/or idealistic youngster via the internet. Just think of how impossible it would be to discourage a determined Islamic Vicki Pollard from meeting the boy of her dreams, even if she knew that boy was a thug and a general wrong 'un.
Although a foolish chav youth is still morally superior to a male who would revel in murder and sex slavery under ISIS.
:D:D Who would have thunk it possible, a foolish chav actually has some status in society and it isn't as a bottom feeder.
They are intelligent girls, probably university material, and have access to any type of media going. Of course they must have researched what they were getting into, and been aware of what ISIS are about. ISIS are global headlines, almost on a daily basis,
I know what they're getting into, so do you, so does nearly everyone else in this thread. Yet some seem to think this widely available and very basic information about ISIS, has somehow passed these girls by, and that they are oblivious to it, and are just stupid teenagers out for a laugh and an adventure.
I don't think that at all, I think that their youthful religious zeal has allowed them to think that a war on infidels is somehow acceptable, and that their duty to Allah and his prophet is to offer comfort to His soldiers. As they are young, I think rehabilitation is possible. Any adults out there, shoot the bastards, fill your boots.
They are intelligent girls, probably university material, and have access to any type of media going. Of course they must have researched what they were getting into, and been aware of what ISIS are about. ISIS are global headlines, almost on a daily basis,
I know what they're getting into, so do you, so does nearly everyone else in this thread. Yet some seem to think this widely available and very basic information about ISIS, has somehow passed these girls by, and that they are oblivious to it, and are just stupid teenagers out for a laugh and an adventure.
Yes, agree. And it seems absolutely no one in their families, other friends, community, school, mosque had any information about the reality of ISIS that might have made them catch themselves on.
How very strange.;-)
Seen quite a few posts on here expressing sympathy for the parents etc.
Yet, I haven't seen or heard one report indicating that either the parents or other family members have got off their arses and made their way to Turkey to try and intervene, before they cross into Syria.
Had it been one of my daughters, I'd have been on the first available flight - and been on every media outlet (TV, Radio etc) in that country and pushing the Turkish Government and the UK Embassy 24/7.
I'm a not sure many teenagers had made such a silly trivial mistake as celebrating blood lust, demanding more, getting tickets to fly abroad and help terrorists who have invaded another country.
We are not talking of a few moonies and broken windows here...this is nasty serious shite.
It is indeed very nasty.
But the methods used to recruit are those of a brain-washing cult in my view. I read an article which suggested that some girls end up feeling it is their 'religious duty' to go out and help build the caliphate where everyone can live their version of a pure Islamic life.
I read a post on here which suggested the girls would be off decapitating people within days - women are not enticed out there to fight. Their role is to stop at home and produce lots of babies to provide the next generation of their fledgling 'state'.
Whilst everyone is busy being superior and sneering at the parents of these and other young people and drawing distinctions, it is worth remembering that there a white converts to Islam over there too. Has everyone forgotten about Samantha Lewthwaite? This article mentions another woman who definitely does not sound Asian or north African:
“Umm Hussain”, alternately named in reports as mother-of-two Sally Jones from Kent, tweeted: “Know that we have armies in Iraq and an army in Sham [Syria] of angry lions whose drink is blood and play is carnage.”
The article is worth a read although deeply depressing.
Seen quite a few posts on here expressing sympathy for the parents etc.
Yet, I haven't seen or heard one report indicating that either the parents or other family members have got off their arses and made their way to Turkey to try and intervene, before they cross into Syria.
Had it been one of my daughters, I'd have been on the first available flight - and been on every media outlet (TV, Radio etc) in that country and pushing the Turkish Government and the UK Embassy 24/7.
I would do that too. It would be inconceivable to sit at home and wait for news. Though I'm a direct action kind of person (I once staged a sit-in at the Tax Credits office as they owed me nearly £3000 and have protested with AI many times).
If money and someone else's human rights spur me to get off my bottom and do something heaven help ISIS f they tried to lure my child away.
Wasn't there a mother who went and got her son back? Good on her.
But the methods used to recruit are those of a brain-washing cult in my view. I read an article which suggested that some girls end up feeling it is their 'religious duty' to go out and help build the caliphate where everyone can live their version of a pure Islamic life.
I read a post on here which suggested the girls would be off decapitating people within days - women are not enticed out there to fight. Their role is to stop at home and produce lots of babies to provide the next generation of their fledgling 'state'.
Whilst everyone is busy being superior and sneering at the parents of these and other young people and drawing distinctions, it is worth remembering that there a white converts to Islam over there too. Has everyone forgotten about Samantha Lewthwaite? This article mentions another woman who definitely does not sound Asian or north African:
The article is worth a read although deeply depressing.
Don't get wrapped up in the race card...Islam is not about race, its about religion. ISIS a branch of Islam...any butcher can join.
In fact isn't their aim to convert the entire world "Your daughters will be Islamic, your sons will be Islamic" was one idiotic comment I heard from an Islamic guy on the TV.
So even they are not too fussed about race...anyone will do.
Don't get wrapped up in the race card...Islam is not about race, its about religion. ISIS a branch of Islam...any butcher can join.
In fact isn't their aim to convert the entire world "Your daughters will be Islamic, your sons will be Islamic" was one idiotic comment I heard from an Islamic guy on the TV.
So even they are not too fussed about race...anyone will do.
Yes, agree. And it seems absolutely no one in their families, other friends, community, school, mosque had any information about the reality of ISIS that might have made them catch themselves on.
How very strange.;-)
It is when you consider they were "supposedly" all openly condemning ISIS.
I would do that too. It would be inconceivable to sit at home and wait for news. Though I'm a direct action kind of person (I once staged a sit-in at the Tax Credits office as they owed me nearly £3000 and have protested with AI many times).
If money and someone else's human rights spur me to get off my bottom and do something heaven help ISIS f they tried to lure my child away.
Wasn't there a mother who went and got her son back? Good on her.
It would take a great deal of determination, luck, and skill, and is probably not within the capabilities of a fat shopkeeper from Bethnal green:D but I'd be with you, I'd fetch my kid back if I could, or die trying, not so unlikely. But then again, they're welcome to try brainwashing my 2, it might drive the brainwashes to suicide. It used to nearly do for me just to get them to tidy their rooms. Joking aside, the parents seem to me to be making a few token statements. Maybe your kids heading for martyrdom gives you some kudos in the community.
It would take a great deal of determination, luck, and skill, and is probably not within the capabilities of a fat shopkeeper from Bethnal green:D but I'd be with you, I'd fetch my kid back if I could, or die trying, not so unlikely. But then again, they're welcome to try brainwashing my 2, it might drive the brainwashes to suicide. It used to nearly do for me just to get them to tidy their rooms. Joking aside, the parents seem to me to be making a few token statements. Maybe your kids heading for martyrdom gives you some kudos in the community.
I agree it's not really a joking matter but my 18 year old said 'They would soon send me back' when I asked if she was tempted to join up
The lady who went to get her son back seemed fairly ordinary which would give me confidence. I couldn't imagine sitting at home knowing my child was falling into the hands (literally if it's a girl >:(:() of terrorists.
I find the vitriol on this thread towards not only these girls (who are teenagers who may be intelligent but are also as naive and unworldly-wise as most 15-16 year old girls - some of whom who fancy twits like Justin Bieber and pour scorn and nastiness on anyone who doesn't like him ... Then grow out of it as they mature emotionally) but ALL Muslims quite appalling.
Yes, ISIS and their ilk are despicable and disgusting creatures who need wiping off the face of this planet. They don't care about anything other than killing, imposing their way of thinking on others (including other Muslims, who, let's not forget, they have also murdered; the pilot they burned to death was also a Muslim, wasn't he? Did he then deserve his death because of his religion?) and the glare of publicity as they do so.
However, you don't condemn an entire section of people, make assumptions about them when you have no proof ('their own families probably radicalised them ...' - how can you possibly KNOW that??? You don't) nor wish them all dead unless you want to come across as being prejudiced against all Muslims.
The KKK have murdered people over the years by burning them alive, by shooting them or by hanging them. Do we think they are truly representative of ALL Christians? No, of course not. Why, then, do we believe that of another religion?
Yes, Islam is a very strict creed. I disagree completely with its rules and regulations - or at least they way its writings are interpreted and formed into said rules. The same way I hate the way some fundamentalist Christians interpret the writings in the Bible to justify some of their terrible acts and attitudes.
But Islam is very strict and yes, it is an indoctrination which starts when one is old enough to begin to understand the world. If you are brought up in that religion, you adhere to its tenets or there are consequences. Let's not forget about 'honour killings' and forced marriages - or do these women, because they are Muslim, deserve all they get in those scenarios too?
It's very difficult for anyone who hasn't been brought up in that religion to understand the pressures to conform and the deep seated faith that is Islam. I don't truly understand it but I can appreciate that it does exist and that even if they not allowed to condemn what is happening in the name of their religion because they are not allowed to criticise their religion, many Muslims probably DO condemn it and are not party to it.
Thank goodness my religion doesn't require such strict adherence. And believes in life rather than an abstract. I couldn't live under such rules. But then, I wasn't brought up that way. Which doesn't make all Muslims terrorists or would-be terrorists. It just makes them religious. Just as the bible doesn't make everyone a KKK member. It just makes them a Christian.
Sorry, this is a little long winded but I am quite alarmed by the underlying racism I see being spouted in some of the posts on this thread.
As for the teenagers. Well, the first thing I thought when I saw their photos - garbed in Western dress was that that was the last time they would be allowed to dress that way; they would not be allowed to have their phones (something which teenagers in particular seem inordinately attached to like third limbs!) and they would live the rest of their lives as chattels, with none of the freedoms they took for granted here. And if they tried to rebel? Well, that would probably be their death.
But I don't celebrate that. They are silly, naive little girls - no doubt believing in some romanticised idea and in for the shock of their lives when they face the reality of what lies before them.
I recall being a teenage girl of that age. I was intelligent. I was, however, very naive, emotionally immature and believed in things that I now find quite daft.
These girls are under the thrall of someone who has been grooming them (irrespective of whether it was a radical posing as a romantic revolutionary or their friend who was doing essentially the same thing - if it actually was their friend and not someone posing as her on her account). I feel very sorry that because they have bought into this, their lives are going to end in misery.
You being an apologist for these 3 girls who didn't do anything comparable to you or anyone you know did when you were 16 isn't on. They are joining up with a violent Islamic terrorist organisation that wants to bring on the end of days, not sneaking out to a Justin Bieber concert or drinking a bottle of cider down the park.
The charge of racism doesn't stick either, how can it be racism if you can convert to Islam? Can you convert to being a different race? It's a set of religious beliefs which would make criticism of beliefs like Communism 'racist' or Socialism 'racist'.
Your only criticism of Islam seems to be it is 'strict' or criticism for mostly Pakistani and Bangladeshi tribal customs like forced marriage. You didn't touch on the antisemitism, homophobia, death for apostasy, women reduced to chattel, paradise reward for martyrs, criticism silenced, cartoons censored, threats to kill Jews and Hindus etc. Or is that the 'wrong type of Muslim' as we so often hear? Who decides who is the 'wrong type of Muslim' then?
Yes, agree. And it seems absolutely no one in their families, other friends, community, school, mosque had any information about the reality of ISIS that might have made them catch themselves on.
How very strange.;-)
Indeed.
Yet the lawyers for the families are aghast that the security services weren't patrolling the airports to stop the girls, as though their escape to a Turkey was inevitable.
So, it was obvious that the girls would be likely to go, especially given that another girl from the school went in December and the security services should have stopped them.
But the parents had absolutely no inkling and couldn't have been expected to take any measures themselves, such as oh I dunno, taking away their passports?
Yet, I haven't seen or heard one report indicating that either the parents or other family members have got off their arses and made their way to Turkey to try and intervene, before they cross into Syria.
Indeed, and if they couldn't afford to go then would there not have been an appeal of some kind?
I'll confess I haven't read this entire thread so I don't know if there's been answers to the obvious questions like who bought the ticket for a 15-year-old, why someone under 16 was allowed on to a plane without parents or legal guardian signing lots of bits of paper and a 200-page indemnity for the airline.
Even back in the 70s if you were under 16 and flying you were tagged and flagged as 'unaccompanied minor' and escorted from start to finish so how did this happen now that we are in the midst of full-scale paedogeddon, not so long ago a teacher running off with a 15 year old pupil...?
This isn't a security service failure (or at least not entirely), there's a whole load of other obvious stuff that looks like it just didn't happen.
I'm really struggling with the level of hatred aimed at 3 schoolgirls. Did none of you ever do anything stupid as teenagers? I'm quite ok with pointing out the many, many ghastly things about Islam in its purer form, but really? Their first youthful offence is sufficient for you lot to wish them dead. And some very surprising members there too. Are we all just fatigued, numbed by Islamic terror or something? Are we not supposed to be better than they are?
The family of Scots jihadist Aqsa Mahmood who they are saying helped recruit these girls said she was "a disgrace to your family and the people of Scotland". Why should these 3 who went be given any more leniency? We hear of how smart they supposedly are and in the same breath how naive and foolish they are like it is the first time they've been outside. They knew what they were doing and how violent ISIS were.
They are traitors that cannot be trusted and if any of the 4 came back I'd want them jailed. They have made their choice now and hopefully they don't come back but receive the inevitable in Raqqa or some other dusty dump.
They are intelligent girls, probably university material, and have access to any type of media going. Of course they must have researched what they were getting into, and been aware of what ISIS are about. ISIS are global headlines, almost on a daily basis,
I know what they're getting into, so do you, so does nearly everyone else in this thread. Yet some seem to think this widely available and very basic information about ISIS, has somehow passed these girls by, and that they are oblivious to it, and are just stupid teenagers out for a laugh and an adventure.
I don't doubt for a moment they knew about what ISIS is and the barbaric acts it commits - what they probably did was listen to the justification for those acts on ISIS propaganda and buy into them. (Such as Muath al-Kaseasbeh was burned because he had burned children in air raids etc). The ISIS propaganda machine is well constructed and targeted - they want willing girls to serve them and they know just the age range and the methods they need to use to get them, 15/16 year old girls are very vulnerable to 'romance' and when handsome young men who are fighting for Islam, say they are forced to do horrendous things to achieve their goal of a paradise of peace and harmony etc etc, the girls believe it. It is crap, but for some adolescent girls it is the kind of romantic, idealistic crap they can buy into. I don't think for a moment they are 'on an adventure' - I think they believe that they will be going into a wonderful life filled with Prince Charming and his little babies to care for. And they are going to get a huge shock after about five minutes.
Indeed, and if they couldn't afford to go then would there not have been an appeal of some kind?
I'll confess I haven't read this entire thread so I don't know if there's been answers to the obvious questions like who bought the ticket for a 15-year-old, why someone under 16 was allowed on to a plane without parents or legal guardian signing lots of bits of paper and a 200-page indemnity for the airline.
Even back in the 70s if you were under 16 and flying you were tagged and flagged as 'unaccompanied minor' and escorted from start to finish so how did this happen now that we are in the midst of full-scale paedogeddon, not so long ago a teacher running off with a 15 year old pupil...?
This isn't a security service failure (or at least not entirely), there's a whole load of other obvious stuff that looks like it just didn't happen.
Much of that has been mentioned, but not at the same time... Turkish airlines would seem to carry part of the blame, though one of the girls has nicked her elder sister's passport, so seemed to be 17. Money, I daresay IS bought the tickets, it's a major publicity coup for them, let alone the fresh meat.
Security service wise, I daresay they have greater threats to deal with than a bunch of schoolgirls, they'll be busy tracking adults who might well have actual hardware here in UK, that's their job. Not nurse aiding for negligent parents. Though as I've said, I wonder just how negligent they are. It's conceivable they were right inside the loop from the start. How handy to then have a go at MI5.
I don't doubt for a moment they knew about what ISIS is and the barbaric acts it commits - what they probably did was listen to the justification for those acts on ISIS propaganda and buy into them. (Such as Muath al-Kaseasbeh was burned because he had burned children in air raids etc). The ISIS propaganda machine is well constructed and targeted - they want willing girls to serve them and they know just the age range and the methods they need to use to get them, 15/16 year old girls are very vulnerable to 'romance' and when handsome young men who are fighting for Islam, say they are forced to do horrendous things to achieve their goal of a paradise of peace and harmony etc etc, the girls believe it. It is crap, but for some adolescent girls it is the kind of romantic, idealistic crap they can buy into. I don't think for a moment they are 'on an adventure' - I think they believe that they will be going into a wonderful life filled with Prince Charming and his little babies to care for. And they are going to get a huge shock after about five minutes.
The guardian article linked earlier said that the girls who went were desensitised to the violence and expected to carry out acts of violence themselves.
I'm really struggling with the level of hatred aimed at 3 schoolgirls. Did none of you ever do anything stupid as teenagers? I'm quite ok with pointing out the many, many ghastly things about Islam in its purer form, but really? Their first youthful offence is sufficient for you lot to wish them dead. And some very surprising members there too. Are we all just fatigued, numbed by Islamic terror or something? Are we not supposed to be better than they are?
I cannot feel any sympathy for anyone running off to join a terrorist organisation...
It isnt something you naively are tricked into doing considering the the ncessary expense and effort required.
Comments
Like with children from any religious household, indoctrination begins from birth.
Growing up as a Muslim in Bethnal Green, one is able to completely immerse one's self in Islam. The extra push to ISIS is not as vast as some FMs are hoping it is.
Precisely...have a read of this article...its very thought provoking IMO.
http://alisina.org/?p=5045
I don't think that at all, I think that their youthful religious zeal has allowed them to think that a war on infidels is somehow acceptable, and that their duty to Allah and his prophet is to offer comfort to His soldiers. As they are young, I think rehabilitation is possible. Any adults out there, shoot the bastards, fill your boots.
Yes, agree. And it seems absolutely no one in their families, other friends, community, school, mosque had any information about the reality of ISIS that might have made them catch themselves on.
How very strange.;-)
Yet, I haven't seen or heard one report indicating that either the parents or other family members have got off their arses and made their way to Turkey to try and intervene, before they cross into Syria.
Had it been one of my daughters, I'd have been on the first available flight - and been on every media outlet (TV, Radio etc) in that country and pushing the Turkish Government and the UK Embassy 24/7.
It is indeed very nasty.
But the methods used to recruit are those of a brain-washing cult in my view. I read an article which suggested that some girls end up feeling it is their 'religious duty' to go out and help build the caliphate where everyone can live their version of a pure Islamic life.
I read a post on here which suggested the girls would be off decapitating people within days - women are not enticed out there to fight. Their role is to stop at home and produce lots of babies to provide the next generation of their fledgling 'state'.
Whilst everyone is busy being superior and sneering at the parents of these and other young people and drawing distinctions, it is worth remembering that there a white converts to Islam over there too. Has everyone forgotten about Samantha Lewthwaite? This article mentions another woman who definitely does not sound Asian or north African:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/20/push-pull-lure-western-women-isis
The article is worth a read although deeply depressing.
I would do that too. It would be inconceivable to sit at home and wait for news. Though I'm a direct action kind of person (I once staged a sit-in at the Tax Credits office as they owed me nearly £3000 and have protested with AI many times).
If money and someone else's human rights spur me to get off my bottom and do something heaven help ISIS f they tried to lure my child away.
Wasn't there a mother who went and got her son back? Good on her.
Don't get wrapped up in the race card...Islam is not about race, its about religion. ISIS a branch of Islam...any butcher can join.
In fact isn't their aim to convert the entire world "Your daughters will be Islamic, your sons will be Islamic" was one idiotic comment I heard from an Islamic guy on the TV.
So even they are not too fussed about race...anyone will do.
Is is a death cult to quote david cameron.
It is when you consider they were "supposedly" all openly condemning ISIS.
Very strange indeed.
It would take a great deal of determination, luck, and skill, and is probably not within the capabilities of a fat shopkeeper from Bethnal green:D but I'd be with you, I'd fetch my kid back if I could, or die trying, not so unlikely. But then again, they're welcome to try brainwashing my 2, it might drive the brainwashes to suicide. It used to nearly do for me just to get them to tidy their rooms. Joking aside, the parents seem to me to be making a few token statements. Maybe your kids heading for martyrdom gives you some kudos in the community.
Super article. Deserves its own thread imo.
I agree it's not really a joking matter but my 18 year old said 'They would soon send me back' when I asked if she was tempted to join up
The lady who went to get her son back seemed fairly ordinary which would give me confidence. I couldn't imagine sitting at home knowing my child was falling into the hands (literally if it's a girl >:(:() of terrorists.
You being an apologist for these 3 girls who didn't do anything comparable to you or anyone you know did when you were 16 isn't on. They are joining up with a violent Islamic terrorist organisation that wants to bring on the end of days, not sneaking out to a Justin Bieber concert or drinking a bottle of cider down the park.
The charge of racism doesn't stick either, how can it be racism if you can convert to Islam? Can you convert to being a different race? It's a set of religious beliefs which would make criticism of beliefs like Communism 'racist' or Socialism 'racist'.
Your only criticism of Islam seems to be it is 'strict' or criticism for mostly Pakistani and Bangladeshi tribal customs like forced marriage. You didn't touch on the antisemitism, homophobia, death for apostasy, women reduced to chattel, paradise reward for martyrs, criticism silenced, cartoons censored, threats to kill Jews and Hindus etc. Or is that the 'wrong type of Muslim' as we so often hear? Who decides who is the 'wrong type of Muslim' then?
Indeed.
Yet the lawyers for the families are aghast that the security services weren't patrolling the airports to stop the girls, as though their escape to a Turkey was inevitable.
So, it was obvious that the girls would be likely to go, especially given that another girl from the school went in December and the security services should have stopped them.
But the parents had absolutely no inkling and couldn't have been expected to take any measures themselves, such as oh I dunno, taking away their passports?
I'll confess I haven't read this entire thread so I don't know if there's been answers to the obvious questions like who bought the ticket for a 15-year-old, why someone under 16 was allowed on to a plane without parents or legal guardian signing lots of bits of paper and a 200-page indemnity for the airline.
Even back in the 70s if you were under 16 and flying you were tagged and flagged as 'unaccompanied minor' and escorted from start to finish so how did this happen now that we are in the midst of full-scale paedogeddon, not so long ago a teacher running off with a 15 year old pupil...?
This isn't a security service failure (or at least not entirely), there's a whole load of other obvious stuff that looks like it just didn't happen.
The family of Scots jihadist Aqsa Mahmood who they are saying helped recruit these girls said she was "a disgrace to your family and the people of Scotland". Why should these 3 who went be given any more leniency? We hear of how smart they supposedly are and in the same breath how naive and foolish they are like it is the first time they've been outside. They knew what they were doing and how violent ISIS were.
They are traitors that cannot be trusted and if any of the 4 came back I'd want them jailed. They have made their choice now and hopefully they don't come back but receive the inevitable in Raqqa or some other dusty dump.
Over 12 years old you can travel alone.
If you want all that escort stuff it costs extra, 125 dollars for short haul and 150 for long haul
I don't doubt for a moment they knew about what ISIS is and the barbaric acts it commits - what they probably did was listen to the justification for those acts on ISIS propaganda and buy into them. (Such as Muath al-Kaseasbeh was burned because he had burned children in air raids etc). The ISIS propaganda machine is well constructed and targeted - they want willing girls to serve them and they know just the age range and the methods they need to use to get them, 15/16 year old girls are very vulnerable to 'romance' and when handsome young men who are fighting for Islam, say they are forced to do horrendous things to achieve their goal of a paradise of peace and harmony etc etc, the girls believe it. It is crap, but for some adolescent girls it is the kind of romantic, idealistic crap they can buy into. I don't think for a moment they are 'on an adventure' - I think they believe that they will be going into a wonderful life filled with Prince Charming and his little babies to care for. And they are going to get a huge shock after about five minutes.
Much of that has been mentioned, but not at the same time... Turkish airlines would seem to carry part of the blame, though one of the girls has nicked her elder sister's passport, so seemed to be 17. Money, I daresay IS bought the tickets, it's a major publicity coup for them, let alone the fresh meat.
Security service wise, I daresay they have greater threats to deal with than a bunch of schoolgirls, they'll be busy tracking adults who might well have actual hardware here in UK, that's their job. Not nurse aiding for negligent parents. Though as I've said, I wonder just how negligent they are. It's conceivable they were right inside the loop from the start. How handy to then have a go at MI5.
The guardian article linked earlier said that the girls who went were desensitised to the violence and expected to carry out acts of violence themselves.
It isnt something you naively are tricked into doing considering the the ncessary expense and effort required.