Well in that case address the more serious problems Muslim women face like the right of her husband to rape and beat her. That is after her father has beaten her. Her lack of rights to money and ownership of property apart from her dowry.
Well of course I would, If I were in charge I'd build more domestic abuse shelters and encourage ladies or men to report abuse against them through advertising campaigns.
Yep, I have only partial hearing and no chance of knowing what anyone in a burqa is saying to me. You probably think that's my problem, the issue of deaf children in classrooms with burqa-clad teaching assistants is the kids' problem, the same for old people with limited hearing in hospitals, council offices etc
Actually you are the first to say that others need to be 'tackled' - and I agree... but not by bans that will make it worse for the victims. That is the only difference between us - the means.
Egypt and especially Turkey have banned the veils before, and Turkey is considered (or was considered) the one secular and progressive muslim majority country.
Reality doesn't match your dream that something bad would happen with a ban.
I've said it before and I am sure some others have... but the thread has been somewhat sidetracked of late by the face veil argument, which primarily affects one small part of one religion, the one that prompted this thread.
I find your 'it may make life difficult for some' argument to be defeatist and feeble, because we can and should try to tackle their difficulties as well. I hope you will, in time, think again.
Like I said, until such time jesaya is marched to the top of a tower block to be thrown off it, she will continue to defend those who hate her and everything she stands for, as if it's their right to do so, although only for a specific element of society.
Shame, I used to think she was one of the more intelligent posters here, but she's shown her naivety and blind pursuit to be as politically correct as is possible more so than I ever thought possible. It's this PC that makes them feel superior as they see everyone else as being completely irrational and that talking to people with no eye contact, facial movements or anything else that is a key component of face to face communication is perfectly acceptable.
I bet an ID parade down the cop shop would be fun.
Why should strangers communicate with you if they don't wish to though? Of course I am not denying growing extremism, but why does a woman in a veil mean anymore than any other woman... that was my point about the 7/7 terrorists... they looked like any other young man, so why are you not frightened by young men in jeans and t-shirts?
When out and about, you do get communication, not necessarily spoken. Just a look, a smile, raising of the eyebrows, a grimace even! With them it is nothing. It is a totally unfriendly, segregating item.
The men in t-shirts and jeans blended in, didn't they? Backpacks are very suspicious items now though, aren't they.
Please describe how using an example of effective communication that doesn't require face-to-face contact is a straw-man argument?
Lookup what straw-man means, it's making a reasonable assertion such as 'well you don't need to see a persons face to communicate on the phone' which you know people will agree with.
You then apply the same assertion to the actual argument to prove you are right. so therefore it follows that you don't need to see a persons face to communicate in person.
Because people agree with the first case you automatically ( incorrectly ) try to imply people have to agree for the second case because you are trying to pretend it's the same thing.
Do you?:D
That's why I love DS - it's possible to "hear" and be part of a conversation of lots of voices without getting a headache from having to work hard to follow what's being said. Also it's there to go back to - you can't rewind six people all talking at once in a pub or office.
Like I said, until such time jesaya is marched to the top of a tower block to be thrown off it....
I believe that's the special treat reserved for guys like me. Are they doing equality with women on that now? Maybe we can hold hands if we go together.
Well in that case address the more serious problems Muslim women face like the right of her husband to rape and beat her. That is after her father has beaten her. Her lack of rights to money and ownership of property apart from her dowry.
WTF muslim women are not allowed money or property are you sure you're not mixing up with the Ferengi from Star Trek, the only difference Ferengi and muslim women is Ferengi women have to go naked.
Well of course I would, If I were in charge I'd build more domestic abuse shelters and encourage ladies to report abuse against them through advertising campaigns.
I'd also ban the burqa too.
I met a young Muslim mother when I worked in a shop. She pushed her buggy around with 2 children in it, about a year apart. She had a little girl of about 3 also. I got chatting to her over a period of months. Her life was utterly tragic. Her husband had another woman. Both he and her MIL were hitting her. Her own family did not want to know as she belonged to her husband.
She had no money and no choices , she was actually terrified for her life. She could not go for help as she was convinced he would remove the children . So knew she would be ostracised from anyone she knew if she complained . She was from abroad and had no
one.
Yep, I have only partial hearing and no chance of knowing what anyone in a burqa is saying to me. You probably think that's my problem, the issue of deaf children in classrooms with burqa-clad teaching assistants is the kids' problem, the same for old people with limited hearing in hospitals, council offices etc
I wouldn't speak to someone who was wearing a burqa let alone try and have a conversation with them. Such fancy dress is something I profoundly disagree with even seeing in a Western country.
Yep, I have only partial hearing and no chance of knowing what anyone in a burqa is saying to me. You probably think that's my problem, the issue of deaf children in classrooms with burqa-clad teaching assistants is the kids' problem, the same for old people with limited hearing in hospitals, council offices etc
If wearing a veil prevented a person from doing a job like that then she should not do the job. It's no different to the security issue. As for you, I would suggest telling the person you need to speak to that you have partial hearing as it is considered perfectly fine to remove the veil to help someone who cannot hear you or needs to lip-read.
Lookup what straw-man means, it's making a reasonable assertion such as 'well you don't need to see a persons face to communicate on the phone' which you know people will agree with.
You then apply the same assertion to the actual argument to prove you are right. so therefore it follows that you don't need to see a persons face to communicate in person.
Because people agree with the first case you automatically ( incorrectly ) try to imply people have to agree for the second case because you are trying to pretend it's the same thing.
It's a classic case of trolling, sorry but it is.
We were talking about communication and the phone is a means of communication that demonstrates you don't need to see a person's face to communicate. And you don't - you can still have a perfectly functional conversation without seeing a person's face.
Please don't call me a troll just because you disagree with my argument, it is really childish.
I'll be honest, I find all organised religions equally tiresome personally. I hope these girls families can find some peace if they don't get their daughters back. And what sort of storm will occur if they came back goodness only knows.
One thing's for sure it will be a good time to switch the damn TV right off. I don't think I can face a fortnight of Sky's po-faced reporters saying: 'the question is....' and 'what lessons can be learned...'.
I met a young Muslim mother when I worked in a shop. She pushed her buggy around with 2 children in it, about a year apart. She had a little girl of about 3 also. I got chatting to her over a period of months. Her life was utterly tragic. Her husband had another woman. Both he and her MIL were hitting her. Her own family did not want to know as she belonged to her husband.
She had no money and no choices , she was actually terrified for her life. She could not go for help as she was convinced he would remove the children . So knew she would be ostracised from anyone she knew if she complained . She was from abroad and had no
one.
That's just terrible, like I've said these women need help and there should be huge adveritsing boards put up with helplines to help them but that would probably offend some people.
We were talking about communication and the phone is a means of communication that demonstrates you don't need to see a person's face to communicate. And you don't - you can still have a perfectly functional conversation without seeing a person's face.
Please don't call me a troll just because you disagree with my argument, it is really childish.
As was stated by myself and others a telephone conversation is not a good example, both participants are on a level playing field whereas face to vieled face is not.
We were talking about communication and the phone is a means of communication that demonstrates you don't need to see a person's face to communicate. And you don't - you can still have a perfectly functional conversation without seeing a person's face.
Please don't call me a troll just because you disagree with my argument, it is really childish.
Well it is hard to take you seriously when you use such an obvious straw-man argument to try and prove your point.
I met a young Muslim mother when I worked in a shop. She pushed her buggy around with 2 children in it, about a year apart. She had a little girl of about 3 also. I got chatting to her over a period of months. Her life was utterly tragic. Her husband had another woman. Both he and her MIL were hitting her. Her own family did not want to know as she belonged to her husband.
She had no money and no choices , she was actually terrified for her life. She could not go for help as she was convinced he would remove the children . So knew she would be ostracised from anyone she knew if she complained . She was from abroad and had no
one.
That is very sad, and very common I suspect. There are places she can go though, with her children, away from the 'community' who are obviously turning their backs on her, including her own mother.
WTF muslim women are not allowed money or property are you sure you're not mixing up with the Ferengi from Star Trek, the only difference Ferengi and muslim women is Ferengi women have to go naked.
I met a young Muslim mother when I worked in a shop. She pushed her buggy around with 2 children in it, about a year apart. She had a little girl of about 3 also. I got chatting to her over a period of months. Her life was utterly tragic. Her husband had another woman. Both he and her MIL were hitting her. Her own family did not want to know as she belonged to her husband.
She had no money and no choices , she was actually terrified for her life. She could not go for help as she was convinced he would remove the children . So knew she would be ostracised from anyone she knew if she complained . She was from abroad and had no
one.
Terrible but you realize it's not an exclusively Muslim problem and you could substitute just about any other word for "Muslim."
In our culture, ie the one they live in, we don't hide our faces unless we're up to no good. I'd argue that we have a cultural need to see them & therefore, yes, our needs do indeed outweigh theirs.
I usually agree with you on this forum but tbh, I wonder if you need to take a step back on this one. You seem to be getting yourself all tangled up with whatabourery re jews etc.
Are we incapable of learning not to be frightened of new things? Don't get me wrong, I prefer to see people's faces too... but I am not going to support criminalising them because of my discomfiture.
Why is giving an example 'whataboutery' only if you happen not to agree with it? Do you not think that it is odd people only want to ban one thing that is repressive but not all of them? Remember there are multiple arguments being used to support a ban here and one of them is that we must criminalise wearing this garment to protect these women from the repression of their men/families... yet other repression isn't considered worthy of action. I am curious why one is considered important but others are not. I suspect it is because the real reason many people want a ban is because of themselves, not any feelings for the women.
Finally, thanks for the advice Electra but I am a big girl and don't need to step away from an argument just because people disagree with my position.
Comments
Well of course I would, If I were in charge I'd build more domestic abuse shelters and encourage ladies or men to report abuse against them through advertising campaigns.
I'd also ban the burqa too.
I love you.
Reality doesn't match your dream that something bad would happen with a ban.
Yes, I believe in democracy like you do and I think that the majority of people in this country want a ban on the burqa. It should be put to a vote.
Like I said, until such time jesaya is marched to the top of a tower block to be thrown off it, she will continue to defend those who hate her and everything she stands for, as if it's their right to do so, although only for a specific element of society.
Shame, I used to think she was one of the more intelligent posters here, but she's shown her naivety and blind pursuit to be as politically correct as is possible more so than I ever thought possible. It's this PC that makes them feel superior as they see everyone else as being completely irrational and that talking to people with no eye contact, facial movements or anything else that is a key component of face to face communication is perfectly acceptable.
I bet an ID parade down the cop shop would be fun.
What gives you the right to demand equality laws?
Yet you do (and good luck to you).
How can you demand on the one hand that people follow your morality, even have it enshrined in law, yet the person you are arguing with here, can't?
Isn't that a little hypocritical?
When out and about, you do get communication, not necessarily spoken. Just a look, a smile, raising of the eyebrows, a grimace even! With them it is nothing. It is a totally unfriendly, segregating item.
The men in t-shirts and jeans blended in, didn't they? Backpacks are very suspicious items now though, aren't they.
Lookup what straw-man means, it's making a reasonable assertion such as 'well you don't need to see a persons face to communicate on the phone' which you know people will agree with.
You then apply the same assertion to the actual argument to prove you are right. so therefore it follows that you don't need to see a persons face to communicate in person.
Because people agree with the first case you automatically ( incorrectly ) try to imply people have to agree for the second case because you are trying to pretend it's the same thing.
It's a classic case of trolling, sorry but it is.
Do you?:D
That's why I love DS - it's possible to "hear" and be part of a conversation of lots of voices without getting a headache from having to work hard to follow what's being said. Also it's there to go back to - you can't rewind six people all talking at once in a pub or office.
I believe that's the special treat reserved for guys like me. Are they doing equality with women on that now? Maybe we can hold hands if we go together.
WTF muslim women are not allowed money or property are you sure you're not mixing up with the Ferengi from Star Trek, the only difference Ferengi and muslim women is Ferengi women have to go naked.
I met a young Muslim mother when I worked in a shop. She pushed her buggy around with 2 children in it, about a year apart. She had a little girl of about 3 also. I got chatting to her over a period of months. Her life was utterly tragic. Her husband had another woman. Both he and her MIL were hitting her. Her own family did not want to know as she belonged to her husband.
She had no money and no choices , she was actually terrified for her life. She could not go for help as she was convinced he would remove the children . So knew she would be ostracised from anyone she knew if she complained . She was from abroad and had no
one.
I wouldn't speak to someone who was wearing a burqa let alone try and have a conversation with them. Such fancy dress is something I profoundly disagree with even seeing in a Western country.
If wearing a veil prevented a person from doing a job like that then she should not do the job. It's no different to the security issue. As for you, I would suggest telling the person you need to speak to that you have partial hearing as it is considered perfectly fine to remove the veil to help someone who cannot hear you or needs to lip-read.
We were talking about communication and the phone is a means of communication that demonstrates you don't need to see a person's face to communicate. And you don't - you can still have a perfectly functional conversation without seeing a person's face.
Please don't call me a troll just because you disagree with my argument, it is really childish.
One thing's for sure it will be a good time to switch the damn TV right off. I don't think I can face a fortnight of Sky's po-faced reporters saying: 'the question is....' and 'what lessons can be learned...'.
That's just terrible, like I've said these women need help and there should be huge adveritsing boards put up with helplines to help them but that would probably offend some people.
As was stated by myself and others a telephone conversation is not a good example, both participants are on a level playing field whereas face to vieled face is not.
Well it is hard to take you seriously when you use such an obvious straw-man argument to try and prove your point.
That is very sad, and very common I suspect. There are places she can go though, with her children, away from the 'community' who are obviously turning their backs on her, including her own mother.
Educate yourself about Sharia law and women .
Terrible but you realize it's not an exclusively Muslim problem and you could substitute just about any other word for "Muslim."
Indeed. And muslims are renowned for their enlightened attitudes towards women.
Are we incapable of learning not to be frightened of new things? Don't get me wrong, I prefer to see people's faces too... but I am not going to support criminalising them because of my discomfiture.
Why is giving an example 'whataboutery' only if you happen not to agree with it? Do you not think that it is odd people only want to ban one thing that is repressive but not all of them? Remember there are multiple arguments being used to support a ban here and one of them is that we must criminalise wearing this garment to protect these women from the repression of their men/families... yet other repression isn't considered worthy of action. I am curious why one is considered important but others are not. I suspect it is because the real reason many people want a ban is because of themselves, not any feelings for the women.
Finally, thanks for the advice Electra but I am a big girl and don't need to step away from an argument just because people disagree with my position.
I wasn't aware you were taking me seriously anyway.