I watched the last episode of Cucumber out of curiosity really. I watched the first one and hated it so avoided the show until last night. I wanted to see how such an abysmal piece of "drama" would be concluded.
I have to say I was more impressed last night than I was when the series started. Cucumber still in no way related to me or any of my own LGBT friends' lives but it didn't put me off so much this time. Henry was still unlikeable and all the other gay male stereotype characters were still just that.
The 6 years later ending just seemed a bit 'tacked on' to me. What was the point of moving it on 6 years when essentially Henry is still the same and so is Freddie (other than for the badly applied fake tattoos)?
Banana I have enjoyed several episodes. It just seemed more relateable, more realistic, and actually I felt emotional responses to some of the stories told. Cucumber never did this for me. Cucumber was like watching scenes that had been strung together with no particular point to them. Banana's self-contained half hour stories worked well for me.
I gave up halfway through episode 5. I know that episode 6 is being hailed as "one of the finest pieces of drama you'll ever see" etc but I don't think one good episode can make up for the car crash of episodes that I saw leading up to it. It's still being lauded in some sections of the gay press. I think its this month's Attitude that has a small bit complaining that people are complaining about it not representing the gay community. I did find the show completely unrelatable but that wasn't my issue with it. The reason I didn't like it was mainly because I didn't like any of the characters. I know antiheroes are all the rage on TV over the last few years but none of these characters were antiheroes. They were just unpleasant people with seemingly no redeeming features. I think I've mentioned before about every scene feeling like a monologue. I'm a fan of Russell T Davies other work but this kind of felt like an exercise in vanity. However because he's Russell T Davies of Queer As Folk and Doctor Who and it's been a while since we've had a gay drama on British TV, I think people are hailing this for the sake of it because Russell's held in hallowed esteem.
From the promo-clips and the hyped up buzz around RTD's ability as a writer I was looking forward to this series. I haven't seen Queer as Folk and can't stand Dr Who.
Overall, I'm glad that I watched. It was much more hit and miss than I expected - more miss than hit I guess but it still had moments of black comedy and depictions of the consequences of not being self-aware and, of course, the brilliantly written and paced episode 6.
I suspect that this is a series that looked brilliant on paper. The final episode displayed its strengths and limitations. The strengths were Henry's final sentence in which he acknowledged his difficulty with coming to terms with his sexuality and from a comedic standpoint the flashbacks of Henry shagging worked for me, especially seeing Frank again and Cliff on the receiving end of some Henry love lol
But almost everything else was too rushed or lazily borrowed: manic self distraction awaiting the verdict. At least we can be grateful that it didn't go all Boadchurch. As the time leaps kicked in I was expecting it to go all Six Feet Under lol. Episode 8 should have brought everything together but it didn't. The explanations it delivered were half-arsed.
Freddy, presumably meant as a middle-aged man's wet dream was a badly written character throughout the series and his back story and thumbnail sketch of the last few years didn't remotely ring true. Dramatic licence is fine but it works best when it is grounded in tangible reality. RTD's depiction of teenage sexuality was so far from reality that it was just laughable and Tomasz becoming some kind of Nazi in the US was such a lazy cliché. It was almost as though RTD was giving succour to his every whim and no one was reigning him in.
But ...
don't tell anyone but I will miss Henry, Cleo, Cliff, and many of the characters from Banana.
Thoroughly underwhelming end to a disappointing series. Most LGBT people still inhabit a world where the majority of their personal interactions are with heterosexuals and in this series once Henry lost his job the only time the straight world impinges on RTDs fantasy bubble is when Cleo shows up. And while it would be nice to believe that gay men and lesbians were all part of one big happy family there is more than a touch of wishful thinking in the number and quality of interactions between them.
Unlikeable characters, when well written, can be an important part of a drama's success. But in Cucumber most of the characters were simply unpleasant and self-obsessed. And Cleo apart there were no sympathetic major characters to act as counterweights.
There were positives:
- Lance's back story in episode 6 felt very authentic
- Julie H's acting (esp the 'nervous' cup smashing scene)
- a couple of the Banana stories were well told (Helen's revenge porn story, and the Aiden and Frank encounter)
Overall though it failed miserably to live up to the advance billing.
- The Collective seemed so idylic but of course it was one of those things that couldn't last forever.
- Don't really blame Freddie for bolting but I don't think Henry was trying to make him into the next Lance.
- Glad Daniel got sent down for Lance's murder.
- The flashforwarding/last scene in the cafe with Henry and Freddie was brilliant. Loved the final question bit too.
Banana
- Vanessa's whole backstory was great as was her interactions with Zara.
- Hope JonJo really was grinning ear to ear with that cup of tea.
- Musical number made me grin as well.
Tofu also ended on a saucy note. I'm going to miss these shows but ending wise, I think they all ended on the right notes.
I stuck with the series despite generally disliking most things about it and I'm really not sure why exactly I came back each week!
I have to say I've always found RTD's writing very over-rated and I at least find comfort in the fact that he's finally had a very well deserved flop! What I disliked the most about the series was the way it felt like you were watching RTD's personal fantasies come to life on screen; almost as though by being given this 8 episode commission he was given the key to play out everything he's ever dreamed of. Pointless bits like Henry's nephew's kissing videos, all the boys of "The Collective" half naked in the back garden doing yoga or whatever it was and some of the supermarket scenes felt like it was all stuff RTD's previously passionately dreamt of and I couldn't shake that from my mind as I was watching.
Oh and one thing I definitely won't miss each week is hearing "JUST ONE LAST COCK! OUT THERE!" in the recap of every bloody episode like that was some sort of iconic line that we'll remember for the rest of our days. It was probably the most cringeworthy line of the series.
I also hate the way it was initially hailed as being a bastion of showing the world what gay life is really like. It couldn't have been any further from the truth.
I also hate the way it was initially hailed as being a bastion of showing the world what gay life is really like. It couldn't have been any further from the truth.
That is the thing that really got me as well.
Gay people have the same dull lives as everyone else-only there is still discrimination and prejudice out there to catch us out every now and again.
To me-that series would have been more entertaining-a middle aged couple coming against that, than a self loathing egoist fulfilling some twink fantasy at the cost of everything and everyone.
Christ-even if Henry had lost everything, there would have been a point to it. But no-he got rid of a partner he disliked, got his job back (through the most contemptible exploitation of legal matters-making a mockery of such laws -especially in light of UKIPs plans!) Got the house, got a new man (who still isn't good enough for him)
Arrrrghhh. There is so much more to being gay than just 'one more cock'-but still Henry has started 'bumming' (>:() so he's grown as a person. (The fantasising of other men to 'get through it to me showed the worst aspect of the character and of RTDs writing. Absolutely irredeemable and execrable)
This show would do nothing to reform any genuinely homophobic person... and the fact that it has angered a number of gay people shows that it has failed to engage with that audience.
We'd all be tarnished as cock hungry, self absorbed people, with no concept of acceptable social conduct-and an inability to relate to non-gay lifestyles and people.
Why would we care... we're all chasing twinks, shagging every guy who shows a passing interest, wanking off in back gardens, and being generally guided by a permanent hard on. But we're fabulous! So we don't have to be nice to anyone!!!!
Am still absolutely disgusted that this will be used as another stick to beat us with-purely because of RTD being patron saint of poofs!
This, Digital Spys 'Fit Guy' Gay section and magazines like Attitude appealing solely to a Scene Queen crowd, paint a really depressing picture of Gay Guys purely being 'style over substance'!
My impression of the series is that Russell was just given carte blanche to write what he wanted, so went right ahead and did exactly that, and that lack of oversight meant that every flaw in his writing was magnified.
He's always had issues with writing likeable characters, speechifying, and storylines that don't really make that much sense. We look at Queer As Folk with rose-tinted glasses, but all of his flaws were there too, though far more limited presumably through his being at the time less of a "name" and not yet enjoying that curious aspect of British TV where a writer that's established can write any old shite and still get millions of pounds and a prime time slot lavished on it (see also Jennifer Saunders).
Some of it was good though. Episode 6 obviously was very good, and there were occasional good scenes elsewhere - usually the ones that didn't end up in either an embarassing situation or a long, drawn out soliloquy on the relative merits of cock your bum. Which constituted at least half of every episode.
Julie Hesmondhalgh and Con O'Neill were a joy throughout, and there were numerous enjoyable side characters, many of who shone in their own Banana episodes. Curiously though none of the supposedly "hot" males were either particularly hot or engaging (Freddie, the nephew, Lukas, Aiden, the Geordie that Dean shagged, etc). The thought that a not particularly attractive blond himbo, who was basically Nathan from QAF driven around the gay block enough times to turn him into a rather sad bitter old queen prototype, could inspire a man who's only interactions with him were negative to throw his life away in his pursuit was ridiculous. And don't get me started on the nephew storyline, which was both ridiculous and skeezy. Ugh.
I thought some of the criticism was unfair though. I have no idea why a show about gays needs to be any more identifiable than the average show about straight people, and I thought that pretty much a lot of the side characters were actually relatively true to scene archetypes that many of us are familiar with, and to be fair to Russell his experience of gays is largely scene-inspired (as was Queer As Folk). And the same goes for its emphasis on sex. It was always going to be a show about a sexually frustrated middle-aged man's mid life crisis, it's quite undertstandable that he's going to spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about it. That doesn't mean all gays spend all the time thinking about it, or that gays who do shouldn't be on TV.
I thought some of the criticism was unfair though. I have no idea why a show about gays needs to be any more identifiable than the average show about straight people, and I thought that pretty much a lot of the side characters were actually relatively true to scene archetypes that many of us are familiar with, and to be fair to Russell his experience of gays is largely scene-inspired (as was Queer As Folk).
I would totally agree with that if:
1) Such a large 'importance' wasn't placed on RTDs representation of Gay Life being 'definitive' and 'accurate'. It patently isn't-it represents only ONE side of the Gay scene in a large city, and the people to whom it is their only social interaction outlet. Even in smaller cities, the Gay scene is drastically different, and populated by people nothing like these vile cliches
2) The pre-amble not making an issue about how it would reflect genuine issues faced by a Mddle Aged gay couple splitting up. Yeah one goes after twinks, and the other supposedly educated and intelligent suddenly becomes a slave to his libido to the expense that every warning Klaxon gets ignored. Hmmmmm.
and 3) if there was actually ANY other dramas that dealt with gay concerns being made except RTD helmed stuff in the UK. At least soaps show 'the Gays' interacting with non gay characters, although they rarely cover the long term issues dealt with by Gay or Lesbian characters.
Cucumber was lazy-one episode that would have worked as an excellent Drama-and a lot of tired cliches.
It's telling that Banana seemed to be much more favourably viewed (and respresenting more than just RTDs view)-yet that was the one stuck on the minority channel.
Tofu-not a clue, but the fact that it was hosted by Ben Cook means i can imagine it would be rather lightweight. I hope it actually wasn't, but I don't think I could watch. Having read too many of his DWM interviews, as well as the lack of objective opinion when dealing with RTD in the Writer's Tale book, i personally feel his style is simply not for me! LOL!
I have to say I've always found RTD's writing very over-rated and I at least find comfort in the fact that he's finally had a very well deserved flop! What I disliked the most about the series was the way it felt like you were watching RTD's personal fantasies come to life on screen; almost as though by being given this 8 episode commission he was given the key to play out everything he's ever dreamed of. Pointless bits like Henry's nephew's kissing videos, all the boys of "The Collective" half naked in the back garden doing yoga or whatever it was and some of the supermarket scenes felt like it was all stuff RTD's previously passionately dreamt of and I couldn't shake that from my mind as I was watching.
- the nephew kissing video and that whole storyline was so cringe and uncomfortable to watch, in one of the early episodes watching henry getting turned on by the two boys kissing, was like ick, you are related to the teenager you are perving on, the guy who played the teenage nephew was aslo so unlikeable and annoying, and another 2D charcter who talked about sex ALL OF THE TIME, it just got so old
- the yoga scene too, i totally agree with you on, it was just put on to ogle the guys bodies, and it just didn't fit at all and was totally random!!! it just seemed really pathetic and out of place and there for titilation only (as was done so many times in the show)
I watched this for eight weeks. Some good episodes (that Lance one was shockingly good!!). But what an anti-climax we got!! And that is THE END! No more.
I think I preferred Queer as Folk......much more entertaining and still had drama along with laughs!
I enjoyed Cucumber overall and thought the ending was surprisingly good. To find out that Henry's been struggling with his sexuality all this time puts another spin on his behaviour and makes him more sympathetic in my opinion. I thought it was a good twist, but maybe with hindsight it would have been better to show this aspect of his character from the start to make him more relatable.
Even Freddie seemed a bit more sympathetic given that last scene. He's still living the same shallow existence at 30ish, which makes him seem rather a sad character.
When I compare Cucumber, and the many complaints that the characters were so unlikeable, to my memories of Queer as Folk (which I loved), it seems to me that Stuart Jones was quite a repulsive character on the surface who was partly redeemed by Aiden Gillen's acting skills and charisma. He's just as magnetic in other roles so I think he played a big part in QAF's success.
I also didn't find Lance as likeable as many other viewers did. He tried to pressurise Henry into a type of sex he'd shown an aversion to, which I find unforgivable. I also found his pursuit of Daniel which (even aside from the very obvious danger signals the latter was giving out) distasteful because he was obviously so conflicted about his homosexual feelings. Having sex with him was the wrong thing to do in my opinion. (Please don't take that as excusing the murder - nothing could excuse such horrendous violence and Daniel's solely to blame for his reaction. I just think that having sex with someone who was so obviously conflicted about it was wrong.) Again, the actor, Cyril Nri, went a long way towards redeeming Lance's character for me.
I too hated the nephew vlogging subplot and there can be no excuses for Henry in those scenes.
As far as the complaints that all the characters were interested in was sex, I think that's a very fair point, but I also think the same can be said for the male characters in many other dramas. It tends to be toned down to a certain extent for straight dramas because lusting after every nubile young female comes across (rightly so) as misogyny, but it's often there all the same.
My viewpoint is that of a straight female so of course that's affected my enjoyment of the show as I didn't feel personally let down by the sex obsession and caricatures.
There were many things about the drama I disliked, which have been described so eloquently by many of you. In the end, though, I was quite sad to say goodbye to Henry and thought that Vincent Franklin did a great job with what he was given.
I think most viewers have missed the point of this show but Kiteys comes close to nailing it. There's clearly a gaping whole throughout the series that would have solved a lot of problems if tackled, namely consequences of actions. It can't be a coincidence that the most universally praised episode highlighted drastic consequences for some of the more innocent behaviour linked to sexuality. If the other main characters continued to make the same mistakes years after the fact and are left unfulfilled then surely that's a clue that their behaviour was never supposed to be celebrated?
What an underwhelming series this was. Like most people, I had such high expectations, but they were dashed within the first five minutes of the first episode. I stuck with it because I kept hoping that it would get better - but other than the excellent sixth episode - it was absolutely ridiculous.
The characters were all unlikable. With the exception of Lance and Cleo, I couldn't care one jot about what happened to the rest of the characters. Not all characters in fiction need to be pleasant, but they must have something that makes them endearing to the audience. Sadly, Henry, Freddie, Dean et al were about as likable or as interesting as a plague of locusts. Henry and Dean came across as spoilt brats and Freddie as an arrogant idiot who seems to think that he's God's gift to the world. The whole Christopher twist came out of nowhere. Who is Christopher? Why should we care when he was mentioned in a throwaway remark nobody can remember?
On the plus side, I loved Lance's colleague telling Henry a few home truths. Only bright spot of an otherwise dismal episode.
If the other main characters continued to make the same mistakes years after the fact and are left unfulfilled then surely that's a clue that their behaviour was never supposed to be celebrated?
Yes, I agree. At least Henry had started to change by the end (and I think that was the point of the flashforward), not least by admitting to himself that he struggled with his sexuality, but Freddie had stagnated. He was obviously a very lonely man in that last scene.
Possibly it was and I was just too thick to pick up on it lol. I've also read through most of this thread and can't remember this point being mentioned.
I knew Henry struggled with a "fear of men" and with anal sex but that didn't translate to a fundamental struggle with being gay itself to me. I've heard straight characters in other dramas voicing similar concerns without it ever being implied that they were struggling with their sexuality. I thought this fear of men stemmed from Henry's timidity - after all, they deliberately cast an actor with an unassuming air to play him and he wasn't supposed to be a confident man as far as I could tell.
Also, the way it was delivered as the punchline to the final episode made me think it was a twist, but I may have interpreted that incorrectly. Possibly the twist was just that Henry was acknowledging it for the first time?
Still, if I wrongly didn't pick up on Henry's internal struggle with being gay, then the revelation to Freddy at the end worked well as the punchline to the series for me - so I'm quite glad I didn't!
The best thing about Cucumber was Julie Hesmondhalgh. I really was just expecting Hayley Cropper. I've never seen her in anything so it was a nice surprise.
I enjoyed Cucumber overall and thought the ending was surprisingly good. To find out that Henry's been struggling with his sexuality all this time puts another spin on his behaviour and makes him more sympathetic in my opinion. I thought it was a good twist, but maybe with hindsight it would have been better to show this aspect of his character from the start to make him more relatable.
Yes-I agree-if Henry HAD been struggling with his sexuality, he would have elicited some sympathy in me.
However, someone who identifies as gay, has a long term relationship with another gay man, is open to family and colleagues about that, lives with the other man in a house that they have seemingly jointly purchased, has gay friends (whether he actually has any hetereosexual friends) and has no problem in attaching feelings to other man and proclaims at the beginning of every episode that there must be 'one more cock' for him does NOT to me, in any way, shape or form, imply to me a Man who is struggling to come to terms with 'being gay'
Henry has issues with penetrative sex (which is actually surprisingly more common than many here seem to acknowledge.) The age of Henry, coupled with the era he would have came out at, would go some way to explaining it.
Ultimately, Henry and Freddie were the same character essentially- ego centric (not so passive) aggressive bullies, who had a total inability to commit and had created situations that caused suffering to other people. They blamed every one else for their failings-and steadfastly refused to accept any responsibility for the consequences of those actions. And while they had both elements in their history that could elicit sympathy, the use of them as a justification for vile behavior is indicative of today's 'Victim Culture'-paint yourself as a victim and everything is justified.
In this respect RTD was very clever. What wasn't so clever was the fact that at the end the characters had ended up in the same situations as the beginning... Henry in a relationship he didn't really seem invested in, and Freddie being aloof, enigmatic and 'sexy'.... That is the bit that just doesn't ring true-history repeats-but the Gay Scene is unforgiving with handing out 'reputations' Freddie being a jet setting 'Gigolo' was 'fan wank' worthy.
The characters may not evolve-but those around them would.
Having known men and women who have genuinely struggled coming to terms with their Same Sex Attractions-to imply that a self important narcicist like Henry is struggling with his sexuality is actually insulting.
I have known people who have had mental breakdowns and others who have tried to commit suicide (including one girl who succeeded after being blackmailed that her Family (Very Religious) would be told unless she parted with large sums of money) because they have struggled with the realities of being Gay. Never have i seen someone having a pathetic mid life crisis obsession with a bitchy twink ever being described as struggling with their sexuality
I'm not even going to waste any more of my time or life (or indeed anyone else's LOL) stating why this show could have easily been the work of some homophobic hack writer. Characters like Henry and Freddie do exist in the real world-but they tend to be very bitter and lonely, and soon modify their actions or end up totally alone-with friends and family cutting all ties. Believe me-that is NOT uncommon with people like that.
Imagine if this show had been about Heterosexual Men objectifying women (and stating pretty explicitly that Women have a 'Shelf Life') and imagine the furore THAT would have created.
Imagine if this show had been about Heterosexual Women, all seen to be cock mad and obsessed with chasing younger replacements. About Women who would use Laws that are meant to protect genuine victims of discrimination to get their own way.
Now try to understand why so many Gay People, who aren't anything like these characters are offended. THIS was hyped as the 'definitive gay drama' chronicling the breakdown of a Gay Relationship-by the Patron Saint of Gay Culture.
The objectionable thing is that we have so few alternative dramas or series featuring Gay characters interacting in a large Scale. I applaud the UK soaps for having more representative characters (We all know an Aaron Livesy, or a John Paul McQueen)-the difference is that most soap gays live in 'isolated bubbles'-we rarely see them interacting with long standing gay friends they've known since school, or folk they met on the scene years ago and became friends rather than '**** buddies' (ack-I can't believe i actually typed that! LOL)
If the only representation heterosexual women had on television, showing them interacting with each other etc, was something vile and vacuous like 'Keeping up with the Kardashians', you would no doubt have an inkling of how much 'Cucumber' offends and stereotypes us more than Larry Grayson, John Inman or Dick Emery ever did.
The 'praise' this series gets means that people out there 'genuinely believe' we are like this.... one small sad section of Gay Life will be used as an excuse for us all to be viewed as 'perverted sex maniacs' by anyone looking to justify their homophobia.
Yes-I agree-if Henry HAD been struggling with his sexuality, he would have elicited some sympathy in me.
However, someone who identifies as gay, has a long term relationship with another gay man, is open to family and colleagues about that, lives with the other man in a house that they have seemingly jointly purchased, has gay friends (whether he actually has any hetereosexual friends) and has no problem in attaching feelings to other man and proclaims at the beginning of every episode that there must be 'one more cock' for him does NOT to me, in any way, shape or form, imply to me a Man who is struggling to come to terms with 'being gay'
Henry has issues with penetrative sex (which is actually surprisingly more common than many here seem to acknowledge.) The age of Henry, coupled with the era he would have came out at, would go some way to explaining it.
I'll take your word for it because as an outsider I can only guess at these things. I suppose that after Henry's final line, I thought that underneath there was still some deeply internalized disgust at himself for being gay. We can sometimes accept, and even embrace, things in others that we can't accept in ourselves (I have experience of this, although for a different reason). We know nothing about Henry's upbringing. They say lapsed Catholics never rid themselves of guilt about sex, so I suppose I assumed something similar for Henry stemming from his upbringing.
Characters like Henry and Freddie do exist in the real world-but they tend to be very bitter and lonely, and soon modify their actions or end up totally alone-with friends and family cutting all ties. Believe me-that is NOT uncommon with people like that.
It seems to me that's exactly how Freddie was portrayed as ending up. Henry appeared to be trying to change so I felt there was hope for him.
Imagine if this show had been about Heterosexual Men objectifying women (and stating pretty explicitly that Women have a 'Shelf Life') and imagine the furore THAT would have created.
There's plenty of misogyny in the media still and I've seen countless straight men portrayed that way on TV in recent years. Luckily, it's often portrayed as unacceptable, as I believe it was in Cucumber. Yes, it was often played for laughs (and I must admit to feeling uncomfortable about that), but I think the point was that Henry, Freddy etc were pretty sad and lonely inside.
The 'praise' this series gets means that people out there 'genuinely believe' we are like this.... one small sad section of Gay Life will be used as an excuse for us all to be viewed as 'perverted sex maniacs' by anyone looking to justify their homophobia.
I don't think you need fear that many people who watched Cucumber believe all gay men to be perverted sex maniacs. I can't imagine that many homophobes would have watched in the first place, and from the comments on this thread it seems to me that most forum members understood the characters were stereotypes. Barely anyone watched it anyway so it's not likely to have any real impact on attitudes.
Please believe that I'm not universally praising Cucumber or denying it had some deep flaws but I think some of Henry's behaviour has been misinterpreted. An example of this is his insistence that he wasn't to blame for Lance's death. That came across as protesting too much to me - Henry was trying to convince himself as much as everyone else. He put on a defensive front but we saw his real feelings during private moments. The way he crumbled when Lance's colleague called him out in the final episode said it all to me. (Not that I believe Henry was to blame, but it's human nature to feel guilty when someone we love dies horribly.)
I accept that my viewpoint is totally different to yours and I respect why you and others feel so strongly about the show. I think it's a real shame that RTD seems to have got it so wrong for his target audience this time. Maybe the problem was that the writing was kept deliberately playful and lightweight (except for episode 6) but it also tackled some serious themes, so the characters came across as more shallow than RTD intended.
Are there interviews around where RTD claims Henry is going to be the brand new voice of a sexuality and break through barriers with his universal appeal and identification?
Or could it be that it's not actually possible to create compelling characters comprised of their sexuality, if it's not a major part of them then they're shudder just regular people and the drama is defunct, if it consumes them then they could become a divisive stereotype.
It must be a constant struggle trying to come to terms with how to balance it, hey that's a bit like the last line in the show but obviously that's just a huge coincidence because this was supposed to be a hit drama about funny gays.
Ultimately, Henry and Freddie were the same character essentially- ego centric (not so passive) aggressive bullies, who had a total inability to commit and had created situations that caused suffering to other people. They blamed every one else for their failings-and steadfastly refused to accept any responsibility for the consequences of those actions. And while they had both elements in their history that could elicit sympathy, the use of them as a justification for vile behavior is indicative of today's 'Victim Culture'-paint yourself as a victim and everything is justified.
That's my reading of it, too. The punchline at the end was just the usual RTD smoke and mirrors. It didn't withstand scrutiny. Everyone has issues with their sexuality that arise from how they manage intimacy, their feelings about their own body and their own sexual desires. Attaching a label such as 'gay' or 'straight' to these struggles misses the point.
As Freddy rightly said, Henry is a powerful man who always gets his way in the end and Cucumber attempted to examine the consequences of such a persona for others.
Gay people have the same dull lives as everyone else-only there is still discrimination and prejudice out there to catch us out every now and again.
To me-that series would have been more entertaining-a middle aged couple coming against that, than a self loathing egoist fulfilling some twink fantasy at the cost of everything and everyone.
Christ-even if Henry had lost everything, there would have been a point to it. But no-he got rid of a partner he disliked, got his job back (through the most contemptible exploitation of legal matters-making a mockery of such laws -especially in light of UKIPs plans!) Got the house, got a new man (who still isn't good enough for him)
Arrrrghhh. There is so much more to being gay than just 'one more cock'-but still Henry has started 'bumming' (>:() so he's grown as a person. (The fantasising of other men to 'get through it to me showed the worst aspect of the character and of RTDs writing. Absolutely irredeemable and execrable)
This show would do nothing to reform any genuinely homophobic person... and the fact that it has angered a number of gay people shows that it has failed to engage with that audience.
We'd all be tarnished as cock hungry, self absorbed people, with no concept of acceptable social conduct-and an inability to relate to non-gay lifestyles and people.
Why would we care... we're all chasing twinks, shagging every guy who shows a passing interest, wanking off in back gardens, and being generally guided by a permanent hard on. But we're fabulous! So we don't have to be nice to anyone!!!!
Am still absolutely disgusted that this will be used as another stick to beat us with-purely because of RTD being patron saint of poofs!
This, Digital Spys 'Fit Guy' Gay section and magazines like Attitude appealing solely to a Scene Queen crowd, paint a really depressing picture of Gay Guys purely being 'style over substance'!
fantastic, yeah spot on, it would put me off the whole gay thing.......and i'm gay lol
One final thing to say on this series-though I've said it all.
I live in a small town, where the nearest gay scene is over an hour away. There are a number of gay folk in the town, but apart from a few social interactions we rarely have interacting lives. I do have a group of gay friends in the city that i interact with more-but we are nothing like ANY of the characters in Cucumber.
We are all relatively nice guys, we all seem to have functioning social lives, (and i can say having recently started a new job working with a section of the population i haven't had any previous interaction with-including a large number of an older generation-I have been made to feel ridiculously welcome and at home)
However, we have all faced homophobic reactions-and none of them have had any relation on us as people. They tend to focus on the negative stereoptypes created in Media Productions. I personally have been berated for being a 'rimmer' by someone who said he'd heard all about what kinda 'creepy' stuff we get up to due to 'Queer as Folk' (although to be fair, the guy was just a bit ignorant about the realities of being 'A Gay-and has since become a rather good friend! LOL!)
But having spoken to 3 of the other local lads, we ended up discussing Cucumber-and how we all have experienced negative comments about it. From-'do u all sleep with each other?', through to 'do you all only shag young guys?' to 'How Many 3somes have you had?' to my own classic, from my own sister 'Do you follow folk round the shop checking them out?' Nothing particularly hurtful, but still shocking that folk who have known us for years feel they need to ask these questions. Some of the folk asking hadn't even watched the show, just read reviews or comments online.
Yeah its great that there has been an outlet for these kind of issues being discussed I suppose, but the very nature of homophobic attitudes is to focus on negative stereotypes. The fact that there was so few positive comments to make on 40 something gay guys in the entire show-coupled with the fact that such an issue is made of RTDs status as a definitive LGBT voice of 21st Century Drama-means that a loaded gun has been handed to them.
These people wont watch the show, the positive points (few as they were) will never be seen. The negatives will be distilled down to a couple of sticks used to beat us with.
Cucumber was a snapshot of one aspect of Gay Life in one City. That would be great if there was any other representation of gay life shown on TV. The alternative to RTDs personal experiences.
I split from my last relationship after a similar amount of time as Lance and Henry-it was nothing to do with swimming, 'bumming' (I hate that term!!!) issues, or wanting someone new. We just reached the end of the road. No hatred, no murder by golf club, no twinks... but the reality of the fact that our individual friends had started to interact due to our relationship saw things like that disintegrate, who would keep on the house etc. All very mundane stuff, made more complicated by stupid 'heterocentric' regulations. It wouldn't have made a gripping TV series-but then neither did Cucumber.
Things like blood and organ donation are still issues for Gay People. My nephew took an overdose as a suicide attempt a short while ago, due to extreme bullying at his school. When it looked like he may need a kidney transplant, all of the family wanted to be tested. I was told-by a health professional that they would rather it was another member of the family than me, because of the 'increased health risks involved'... Needless to say the implication was further 'explained'-and then re-iterated by a more senior NHS staff member. I've had two diametrically explanations for why I may have been told this... one indicating that they were right, one wrong... but needless to say, I was disgusted that purely by being a 'practicing homosexual' i'm seen as a 'potential hazard' inspite of a regular clean bill of health.
Things like that are the realities that Gay people have to face. Chasing Twinks, sleeping with random pick ups and creating false peril for yourself is the propensity of falsely created drama and artificial tension-the work of a desperate playright who doesn't have enough realistic drama to fill the slot he has been commissioned for.
They also lead educated members of the population to make assumptions on the choices that gay people make in their lifestyle. Those assumptions lead to regulations being 'foggy' to all involved, and for gay people to being treated differently... now THATS genuine, insidious, discrimiation... not being called a **** in the street by a drunken knob, or hearing some particularly unappealing guy telling his pals 'bums against the wall'
This is why i despised Cucumber-because it took the lowest common denominators at every turn-and the fact that because of the deification of RTD as a writer, some people will feel its an 'accurate representation' (cos he tells it like it is!)-and as a result, we will still be viewed as cock mad sex maniacs, fancying every guy we come across (ooer), and having no sense of personal safety, or socially acceptable conduct, or human interaction.
These will be used as a justification for things never changing-by people who will never ever see the show-or try to understand if there was an underlying message to it. Even if laws are brought into effect to LEGALLY abolish discrimination, shows like this will still be used by people wondering if perhaps there is a need to be treated differently.
Newspapers like the Daily Mail (yeah-its a joke, but its still widely read, and more importantly believed) will have a field day with the Anti Discrimination Law being so blatantly abused in a really loathesome way (It would have been so much better had Heny even tried to involve Cliff in proving his innocence in the accusations of racism, but that would have involved work for RTD to get himself out of the corner he'd painted himself in). Just imagine how it will be reported if someone who has been genuinely discriminated and fired has to use this law in a High Profile case.
I've NEVER been a politiking person-and have never wanted or expected to being treated differently - and i've certainly never felt the desire to be solely identified as a 'Gay Man'-I'd much rather the fact that i'm a long winded nerd be my defining trait rather than who i am attracted to.
But I am genuinely angry-angry that this series was only ever comissioned (and condoned) because of it's writer, and angry that people cannot see just why so many gay people are offended that this is the only UK 'gay centric' representation on Main Channel TV-and is more offensive than no representational at all.
Thank God the soaps show characters like Aaron and Finn in Emmerdale, and what feels like half the cast at any given time in Hollyoaks! LOL! They are much more accurate representations of gay men than RTD has ever managed-it's just a shame they don't seem to interact a bit more without them being 'shipped'! LOL! Much as the characters of Sean and Todd in Corrie rub folk up the wrong way, at least they seem to speak to each other without jumping into bed/barn/skip.
Apologies again for my rants on this! I promise this is the last!
Watching Cucumber and how it portrays some of the characters made me remember the lovely 'Tish' from League of Gentlemen and her characterisation of gay men who are obsessed with sex
Well i quite enjoyed the final Cucumber. I'm glad they tied up the Lance murder story, and it was nice seeing lots of the old 'Banana' faces living at Henrys.
I also enjoyed the fact it went forward so many years and concluded. Freddies story was a bit of a let down, he seemed to be in the same place he was 6-7 years earlier. Henry seemed more at one with himself.
Banana was awful, worst one of the lot, but overall I have preferred Cucumber anyway.
I will be sad to see it end, i had grown fond of the characters. I liked Cleo and especially Cliff. I'll miss Dean, Henry, Lance and Freddie too. I know many people moaned on here (a lot!) but i liked it.
Comments
I have to say I was more impressed last night than I was when the series started. Cucumber still in no way related to me or any of my own LGBT friends' lives but it didn't put me off so much this time. Henry was still unlikeable and all the other gay male stereotype characters were still just that.
The 6 years later ending just seemed a bit 'tacked on' to me. What was the point of moving it on 6 years when essentially Henry is still the same and so is Freddie (other than for the badly applied fake tattoos)?
Banana I have enjoyed several episodes. It just seemed more relateable, more realistic, and actually I felt emotional responses to some of the stories told. Cucumber never did this for me. Cucumber was like watching scenes that had been strung together with no particular point to them. Banana's self-contained half hour stories worked well for me.
Overall, I'm glad that I watched. It was much more hit and miss than I expected - more miss than hit I guess but it still had moments of black comedy and depictions of the consequences of not being self-aware and, of course, the brilliantly written and paced episode 6.
I suspect that this is a series that looked brilliant on paper. The final episode displayed its strengths and limitations. The strengths were Henry's final sentence in which he acknowledged his difficulty with coming to terms with his sexuality and from a comedic standpoint the flashbacks of Henry shagging worked for me, especially seeing Frank again and Cliff on the receiving end of some Henry love lol
But almost everything else was too rushed or lazily borrowed: manic self distraction awaiting the verdict. At least we can be grateful that it didn't go all Boadchurch. As the time leaps kicked in I was expecting it to go all Six Feet Under lol. Episode 8 should have brought everything together but it didn't. The explanations it delivered were half-arsed.
Freddy, presumably meant as a middle-aged man's wet dream was a badly written character throughout the series and his back story and thumbnail sketch of the last few years didn't remotely ring true. Dramatic licence is fine but it works best when it is grounded in tangible reality. RTD's depiction of teenage sexuality was so far from reality that it was just laughable and Tomasz becoming some kind of Nazi in the US was such a lazy cliché. It was almost as though RTD was giving succour to his every whim and no one was reigning him in.
But ...
don't tell anyone but I will miss Henry, Cleo, Cliff, and many of the characters from Banana.
Unlikeable characters, when well written, can be an important part of a drama's success. But in Cucumber most of the characters were simply unpleasant and self-obsessed. And Cleo apart there were no sympathetic major characters to act as counterweights.
There were positives:
- Lance's back story in episode 6 felt very authentic
- Julie H's acting (esp the 'nervous' cup smashing scene)
- a couple of the Banana stories were well told (Helen's revenge porn story, and the Aiden and Frank encounter)
Overall though it failed miserably to live up to the advance billing.
- The Collective seemed so idylic but of course it was one of those things that couldn't last forever.
- Don't really blame Freddie for bolting but I don't think Henry was trying to make him into the next Lance.
- Glad Daniel got sent down for Lance's murder.
- The flashforwarding/last scene in the cafe with Henry and Freddie was brilliant. Loved the final question bit too.
Banana
- Vanessa's whole backstory was great as was her interactions with Zara.
- Hope JonJo really was grinning ear to ear with that cup of tea.
- Musical number made me grin as well.
Tofu also ended on a saucy note. I'm going to miss these shows but ending wise, I think they all ended on the right notes.
I have to say I've always found RTD's writing very over-rated and I at least find comfort in the fact that he's finally had a very well deserved flop! What I disliked the most about the series was the way it felt like you were watching RTD's personal fantasies come to life on screen; almost as though by being given this 8 episode commission he was given the key to play out everything he's ever dreamed of. Pointless bits like Henry's nephew's kissing videos, all the boys of "The Collective" half naked in the back garden doing yoga or whatever it was and some of the supermarket scenes felt like it was all stuff RTD's previously passionately dreamt of and I couldn't shake that from my mind as I was watching.
Oh and one thing I definitely won't miss each week is hearing "JUST ONE LAST COCK! OUT THERE!" in the recap of every bloody episode like that was some sort of iconic line that we'll remember for the rest of our days. It was probably the most cringeworthy line of the series.
I also hate the way it was initially hailed as being a bastion of showing the world what gay life is really like. It couldn't have been any further from the truth.
That is the thing that really got me as well.
Gay people have the same dull lives as everyone else-only there is still discrimination and prejudice out there to catch us out every now and again.
To me-that series would have been more entertaining-a middle aged couple coming against that, than a self loathing egoist fulfilling some twink fantasy at the cost of everything and everyone.
Christ-even if Henry had lost everything, there would have been a point to it. But no-he got rid of a partner he disliked, got his job back (through the most contemptible exploitation of legal matters-making a mockery of such laws -especially in light of UKIPs plans!) Got the house, got a new man (who still isn't good enough for him)
Arrrrghhh. There is so much more to being gay than just 'one more cock'-but still Henry has started 'bumming' (>:() so he's grown as a person. (The fantasising of other men to 'get through it to me showed the worst aspect of the character and of RTDs writing. Absolutely irredeemable and execrable)
This show would do nothing to reform any genuinely homophobic person... and the fact that it has angered a number of gay people shows that it has failed to engage with that audience.
We'd all be tarnished as cock hungry, self absorbed people, with no concept of acceptable social conduct-and an inability to relate to non-gay lifestyles and people.
Why would we care... we're all chasing twinks, shagging every guy who shows a passing interest, wanking off in back gardens, and being generally guided by a permanent hard on. But we're fabulous! So we don't have to be nice to anyone!!!!
Am still absolutely disgusted that this will be used as another stick to beat us with-purely because of RTD being patron saint of poofs!
This, Digital Spys 'Fit Guy' Gay section and magazines like Attitude appealing solely to a Scene Queen crowd, paint a really depressing picture of Gay Guys purely being 'style over substance'!
He's always had issues with writing likeable characters, speechifying, and storylines that don't really make that much sense. We look at Queer As Folk with rose-tinted glasses, but all of his flaws were there too, though far more limited presumably through his being at the time less of a "name" and not yet enjoying that curious aspect of British TV where a writer that's established can write any old shite and still get millions of pounds and a prime time slot lavished on it (see also Jennifer Saunders).
Some of it was good though. Episode 6 obviously was very good, and there were occasional good scenes elsewhere - usually the ones that didn't end up in either an embarassing situation or a long, drawn out soliloquy on the relative merits of cock your bum. Which constituted at least half of every episode.
Julie Hesmondhalgh and Con O'Neill were a joy throughout, and there were numerous enjoyable side characters, many of who shone in their own Banana episodes. Curiously though none of the supposedly "hot" males were either particularly hot or engaging (Freddie, the nephew, Lukas, Aiden, the Geordie that Dean shagged, etc). The thought that a not particularly attractive blond himbo, who was basically Nathan from QAF driven around the gay block enough times to turn him into a rather sad bitter old queen prototype, could inspire a man who's only interactions with him were negative to throw his life away in his pursuit was ridiculous. And don't get me started on the nephew storyline, which was both ridiculous and skeezy. Ugh.
I thought some of the criticism was unfair though. I have no idea why a show about gays needs to be any more identifiable than the average show about straight people, and I thought that pretty much a lot of the side characters were actually relatively true to scene archetypes that many of us are familiar with, and to be fair to Russell his experience of gays is largely scene-inspired (as was Queer As Folk). And the same goes for its emphasis on sex. It was always going to be a show about a sexually frustrated middle-aged man's mid life crisis, it's quite undertstandable that he's going to spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about it. That doesn't mean all gays spend all the time thinking about it, or that gays who do shouldn't be on TV.
I would totally agree with that if:
1) Such a large 'importance' wasn't placed on RTDs representation of Gay Life being 'definitive' and 'accurate'. It patently isn't-it represents only ONE side of the Gay scene in a large city, and the people to whom it is their only social interaction outlet. Even in smaller cities, the Gay scene is drastically different, and populated by people nothing like these vile cliches
2) The pre-amble not making an issue about how it would reflect genuine issues faced by a Mddle Aged gay couple splitting up. Yeah one goes after twinks, and the other supposedly educated and intelligent suddenly becomes a slave to his libido to the expense that every warning Klaxon gets ignored. Hmmmmm.
and 3) if there was actually ANY other dramas that dealt with gay concerns being made except RTD helmed stuff in the UK. At least soaps show 'the Gays' interacting with non gay characters, although they rarely cover the long term issues dealt with by Gay or Lesbian characters.
Cucumber was lazy-one episode that would have worked as an excellent Drama-and a lot of tired cliches.
It's telling that Banana seemed to be much more favourably viewed (and respresenting more than just RTDs view)-yet that was the one stuck on the minority channel.
Tofu-not a clue, but the fact that it was hosted by Ben Cook means i can imagine it would be rather lightweight. I hope it actually wasn't, but I don't think I could watch. Having read too many of his DWM interviews, as well as the lack of objective opinion when dealing with RTD in the Writer's Tale book, i personally feel his style is simply not for me! LOL!
- the nephew kissing video and that whole storyline was so cringe and uncomfortable to watch, in one of the early episodes watching henry getting turned on by the two boys kissing, was like ick, you are related to the teenager you are perving on, the guy who played the teenage nephew was aslo so unlikeable and annoying, and another 2D charcter who talked about sex ALL OF THE TIME, it just got so old
- the yoga scene too, i totally agree with you on, it was just put on to ogle the guys bodies, and it just didn't fit at all and was totally random!!! it just seemed really pathetic and out of place and there for titilation only (as was done so many times in the show)
I think I preferred Queer as Folk......much more entertaining and still had drama along with laughs!
Even Freddie seemed a bit more sympathetic given that last scene. He's still living the same shallow existence at 30ish, which makes him seem rather a sad character.
When I compare Cucumber, and the many complaints that the characters were so unlikeable, to my memories of Queer as Folk (which I loved), it seems to me that Stuart Jones was quite a repulsive character on the surface who was partly redeemed by Aiden Gillen's acting skills and charisma. He's just as magnetic in other roles so I think he played a big part in QAF's success.
I also didn't find Lance as likeable as many other viewers did. He tried to pressurise Henry into a type of sex he'd shown an aversion to, which I find unforgivable. I also found his pursuit of Daniel which (even aside from the very obvious danger signals the latter was giving out) distasteful because he was obviously so conflicted about his homosexual feelings. Having sex with him was the wrong thing to do in my opinion. (Please don't take that as excusing the murder - nothing could excuse such horrendous violence and Daniel's solely to blame for his reaction. I just think that having sex with someone who was so obviously conflicted about it was wrong.) Again, the actor, Cyril Nri, went a long way towards redeeming Lance's character for me.
I too hated the nephew vlogging subplot and there can be no excuses for Henry in those scenes.
As far as the complaints that all the characters were interested in was sex, I think that's a very fair point, but I also think the same can be said for the male characters in many other dramas. It tends to be toned down to a certain extent for straight dramas because lusting after every nubile young female comes across (rightly so) as misogyny, but it's often there all the same.
My viewpoint is that of a straight female so of course that's affected my enjoyment of the show as I didn't feel personally let down by the sex obsession and caricatures.
There were many things about the drama I disliked, which have been described so eloquently by many of you. In the end, though, I was quite sad to say goodbye to Henry and thought that Vincent Franklin did a great job with what he was given.
The characters were all unlikable. With the exception of Lance and Cleo, I couldn't care one jot about what happened to the rest of the characters. Not all characters in fiction need to be pleasant, but they must have something that makes them endearing to the audience. Sadly, Henry, Freddie, Dean et al were about as likable or as interesting as a plague of locusts. Henry and Dean came across as spoilt brats and Freddie as an arrogant idiot who seems to think that he's God's gift to the world. The whole Christopher twist came out of nowhere. Who is Christopher? Why should we care when he was mentioned in a throwaway remark nobody can remember?
On the plus side, I loved Lance's colleague telling Henry a few home truths. Only bright spot of an otherwise dismal episode.
Thanks
Yes, I agree. At least Henry had started to change by the end (and I think that was the point of the flashforward), not least by admitting to himself that he struggled with his sexuality, but Freddie had stagnated. He was obviously a very lonely man in that last scene.
Possibly it was and I was just too thick to pick up on it lol.
I knew Henry struggled with a "fear of men" and with anal sex but that didn't translate to a fundamental struggle with being gay itself to me. I've heard straight characters in other dramas voicing similar concerns without it ever being implied that they were struggling with their sexuality. I thought this fear of men stemmed from Henry's timidity - after all, they deliberately cast an actor with an unassuming air to play him and he wasn't supposed to be a confident man as far as I could tell.
Also, the way it was delivered as the punchline to the final episode made me think it was a twist, but I may have interpreted that incorrectly. Possibly the twist was just that Henry was acknowledging it for the first time?
Still, if I wrongly didn't pick up on Henry's internal struggle with being gay, then the revelation to Freddy at the end worked well as the punchline to the series for me - so I'm quite glad I didn't!
However, someone who identifies as gay, has a long term relationship with another gay man, is open to family and colleagues about that, lives with the other man in a house that they have seemingly jointly purchased, has gay friends (whether he actually has any hetereosexual friends) and has no problem in attaching feelings to other man and proclaims at the beginning of every episode that there must be 'one more cock' for him does NOT to me, in any way, shape or form, imply to me a Man who is struggling to come to terms with 'being gay'
Henry has issues with penetrative sex (which is actually surprisingly more common than many here seem to acknowledge.) The age of Henry, coupled with the era he would have came out at, would go some way to explaining it.
Ultimately, Henry and Freddie were the same character essentially- ego centric (not so passive) aggressive bullies, who had a total inability to commit and had created situations that caused suffering to other people. They blamed every one else for their failings-and steadfastly refused to accept any responsibility for the consequences of those actions. And while they had both elements in their history that could elicit sympathy, the use of them as a justification for vile behavior is indicative of today's 'Victim Culture'-paint yourself as a victim and everything is justified.
In this respect RTD was very clever. What wasn't so clever was the fact that at the end the characters had ended up in the same situations as the beginning... Henry in a relationship he didn't really seem invested in, and Freddie being aloof, enigmatic and 'sexy'.... That is the bit that just doesn't ring true-history repeats-but the Gay Scene is unforgiving with handing out 'reputations' Freddie being a jet setting 'Gigolo' was 'fan wank' worthy.
The characters may not evolve-but those around them would.
Having known men and women who have genuinely struggled coming to terms with their Same Sex Attractions-to imply that a self important narcicist like Henry is struggling with his sexuality is actually insulting.
I have known people who have had mental breakdowns and others who have tried to commit suicide (including one girl who succeeded after being blackmailed that her Family (Very Religious) would be told unless she parted with large sums of money) because they have struggled with the realities of being Gay. Never have i seen someone having a pathetic mid life crisis obsession with a bitchy twink ever being described as struggling with their sexuality
I'm not even going to waste any more of my time or life (or indeed anyone else's LOL) stating why this show could have easily been the work of some homophobic hack writer. Characters like Henry and Freddie do exist in the real world-but they tend to be very bitter and lonely, and soon modify their actions or end up totally alone-with friends and family cutting all ties. Believe me-that is NOT uncommon with people like that.
Imagine if this show had been about Heterosexual Men objectifying women (and stating pretty explicitly that Women have a 'Shelf Life') and imagine the furore THAT would have created.
Imagine if this show had been about Heterosexual Women, all seen to be cock mad and obsessed with chasing younger replacements. About Women who would use Laws that are meant to protect genuine victims of discrimination to get their own way.
Now try to understand why so many Gay People, who aren't anything like these characters are offended. THIS was hyped as the 'definitive gay drama' chronicling the breakdown of a Gay Relationship-by the Patron Saint of Gay Culture.
The objectionable thing is that we have so few alternative dramas or series featuring Gay characters interacting in a large Scale. I applaud the UK soaps for having more representative characters (We all know an Aaron Livesy, or a John Paul McQueen)-the difference is that most soap gays live in 'isolated bubbles'-we rarely see them interacting with long standing gay friends they've known since school, or folk they met on the scene years ago and became friends rather than '**** buddies' (ack-I can't believe i actually typed that! LOL)
If the only representation heterosexual women had on television, showing them interacting with each other etc, was something vile and vacuous like 'Keeping up with the Kardashians', you would no doubt have an inkling of how much 'Cucumber' offends and stereotypes us more than Larry Grayson, John Inman or Dick Emery ever did.
The 'praise' this series gets means that people out there 'genuinely believe' we are like this.... one small sad section of Gay Life will be used as an excuse for us all to be viewed as 'perverted sex maniacs' by anyone looking to justify their homophobia.
I'll take your word for it because as an outsider I can only guess at these things. I suppose that after Henry's final line, I thought that underneath there was still some deeply internalized disgust at himself for being gay. We can sometimes accept, and even embrace, things in others that we can't accept in ourselves (I have experience of this, although for a different reason). We know nothing about Henry's upbringing. They say lapsed Catholics never rid themselves of guilt about sex, so I suppose I assumed something similar for Henry stemming from his upbringing.
It seems to me that's exactly how Freddie was portrayed as ending up. Henry appeared to be trying to change so I felt there was hope for him.
There's plenty of misogyny in the media still and I've seen countless straight men portrayed that way on TV in recent years. Luckily, it's often portrayed as unacceptable, as I believe it was in Cucumber. Yes, it was often played for laughs (and I must admit to feeling uncomfortable about that), but I think the point was that Henry, Freddy etc were pretty sad and lonely inside.
I don't think you need fear that many people who watched Cucumber believe all gay men to be perverted sex maniacs. I can't imagine that many homophobes would have watched in the first place, and from the comments on this thread it seems to me that most forum members understood the characters were stereotypes. Barely anyone watched it anyway so it's not likely to have any real impact on attitudes.
Please believe that I'm not universally praising Cucumber or denying it had some deep flaws but I think some of Henry's behaviour has been misinterpreted. An example of this is his insistence that he wasn't to blame for Lance's death. That came across as protesting too much to me - Henry was trying to convince himself as much as everyone else. He put on a defensive front but we saw his real feelings during private moments. The way he crumbled when Lance's colleague called him out in the final episode said it all to me. (Not that I believe Henry was to blame, but it's human nature to feel guilty when someone we love dies horribly.)
I accept that my viewpoint is totally different to yours and I respect why you and others feel so strongly about the show. I think it's a real shame that RTD seems to have got it so wrong for his target audience this time. Maybe the problem was that the writing was kept deliberately playful and lightweight (except for episode 6) but it also tackled some serious themes, so the characters came across as more shallow than RTD intended.
Or could it be that it's not actually possible to create compelling characters comprised of their sexuality, if it's not a major part of them then they're shudder just regular people and the drama is defunct, if it consumes them then they could become a divisive stereotype.
It must be a constant struggle trying to come to terms with how to balance it, hey that's a bit like the last line in the show but obviously that's just a huge coincidence because this was supposed to be a hit drama about funny gays.
That's my reading of it, too. The punchline at the end was just the usual RTD smoke and mirrors. It didn't withstand scrutiny. Everyone has issues with their sexuality that arise from how they manage intimacy, their feelings about their own body and their own sexual desires. Attaching a label such as 'gay' or 'straight' to these struggles misses the point.
As Freddy rightly said, Henry is a powerful man who always gets his way in the end and Cucumber attempted to examine the consequences of such a persona for others.
fantastic, yeah spot on, it would put me off the whole gay thing.......and i'm gay lol
I live in a small town, where the nearest gay scene is over an hour away. There are a number of gay folk in the town, but apart from a few social interactions we rarely have interacting lives. I do have a group of gay friends in the city that i interact with more-but we are nothing like ANY of the characters in Cucumber.
We are all relatively nice guys, we all seem to have functioning social lives, (and i can say having recently started a new job working with a section of the population i haven't had any previous interaction with-including a large number of an older generation-I have been made to feel ridiculously welcome and at home)
However, we have all faced homophobic reactions-and none of them have had any relation on us as people. They tend to focus on the negative stereoptypes created in Media Productions. I personally have been berated for being a 'rimmer' by someone who said he'd heard all about what kinda 'creepy' stuff we get up to due to 'Queer as Folk' (although to be fair, the guy was just a bit ignorant about the realities of being 'A Gay-and has since become a rather good friend! LOL!)
But having spoken to 3 of the other local lads, we ended up discussing Cucumber-and how we all have experienced negative comments about it. From-'do u all sleep with each other?', through to 'do you all only shag young guys?' to 'How Many 3somes have you had?' to my own classic, from my own sister 'Do you follow folk round the shop checking them out?' Nothing particularly hurtful, but still shocking that folk who have known us for years feel they need to ask these questions. Some of the folk asking hadn't even watched the show, just read reviews or comments online.
Yeah its great that there has been an outlet for these kind of issues being discussed I suppose, but the very nature of homophobic attitudes is to focus on negative stereotypes. The fact that there was so few positive comments to make on 40 something gay guys in the entire show-coupled with the fact that such an issue is made of RTDs status as a definitive LGBT voice of 21st Century Drama-means that a loaded gun has been handed to them.
These people wont watch the show, the positive points (few as they were) will never be seen. The negatives will be distilled down to a couple of sticks used to beat us with.
Cucumber was a snapshot of one aspect of Gay Life in one City. That would be great if there was any other representation of gay life shown on TV. The alternative to RTDs personal experiences.
I split from my last relationship after a similar amount of time as Lance and Henry-it was nothing to do with swimming, 'bumming' (I hate that term!!!) issues, or wanting someone new. We just reached the end of the road. No hatred, no murder by golf club, no twinks... but the reality of the fact that our individual friends had started to interact due to our relationship saw things like that disintegrate, who would keep on the house etc. All very mundane stuff, made more complicated by stupid 'heterocentric' regulations. It wouldn't have made a gripping TV series-but then neither did Cucumber.
Things like blood and organ donation are still issues for Gay People. My nephew took an overdose as a suicide attempt a short while ago, due to extreme bullying at his school. When it looked like he may need a kidney transplant, all of the family wanted to be tested. I was told-by a health professional that they would rather it was another member of the family than me, because of the 'increased health risks involved'... Needless to say the implication was further 'explained'-and then re-iterated by a more senior NHS staff member. I've had two diametrically explanations for why I may have been told this... one indicating that they were right, one wrong... but needless to say, I was disgusted that purely by being a 'practicing homosexual' i'm seen as a 'potential hazard' inspite of a regular clean bill of health.
Things like that are the realities that Gay people have to face. Chasing Twinks, sleeping with random pick ups and creating false peril for yourself is the propensity of falsely created drama and artificial tension-the work of a desperate playright who doesn't have enough realistic drama to fill the slot he has been commissioned for.
They also lead educated members of the population to make assumptions on the choices that gay people make in their lifestyle. Those assumptions lead to regulations being 'foggy' to all involved, and for gay people to being treated differently... now THATS genuine, insidious, discrimiation... not being called a **** in the street by a drunken knob, or hearing some particularly unappealing guy telling his pals 'bums against the wall'
This is why i despised Cucumber-because it took the lowest common denominators at every turn-and the fact that because of the deification of RTD as a writer, some people will feel its an 'accurate representation' (cos he tells it like it is!)-and as a result, we will still be viewed as cock mad sex maniacs, fancying every guy we come across (ooer), and having no sense of personal safety, or socially acceptable conduct, or human interaction.
These will be used as a justification for things never changing-by people who will never ever see the show-or try to understand if there was an underlying message to it. Even if laws are brought into effect to LEGALLY abolish discrimination, shows like this will still be used by people wondering if perhaps there is a need to be treated differently.
Newspapers like the Daily Mail (yeah-its a joke, but its still widely read, and more importantly believed) will have a field day with the Anti Discrimination Law being so blatantly abused in a really loathesome way (It would have been so much better had Heny even tried to involve Cliff in proving his innocence in the accusations of racism, but that would have involved work for RTD to get himself out of the corner he'd painted himself in). Just imagine how it will be reported if someone who has been genuinely discriminated and fired has to use this law in a High Profile case.
I've NEVER been a politiking person-and have never wanted or expected to being treated differently - and i've certainly never felt the desire to be solely identified as a 'Gay Man'-I'd much rather the fact that i'm a long winded nerd be my defining trait rather than who i am attracted to.
But I am genuinely angry-angry that this series was only ever comissioned (and condoned) because of it's writer, and angry that people cannot see just why so many gay people are offended that this is the only UK 'gay centric' representation on Main Channel TV-and is more offensive than no representational at all.
Thank God the soaps show characters like Aaron and Finn in Emmerdale, and what feels like half the cast at any given time in Hollyoaks! LOL! They are much more accurate representations of gay men than RTD has ever managed-it's just a shame they don't seem to interact a bit more without them being 'shipped'! LOL! Much as the characters of Sean and Todd in Corrie rub folk up the wrong way, at least they seem to speak to each other without jumping into bed/barn/skip.
Apologies again for my rants on this! I promise this is the last!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSIaa88g8PU
I also enjoyed the fact it went forward so many years and concluded. Freddies story was a bit of a let down, he seemed to be in the same place he was 6-7 years earlier. Henry seemed more at one with himself.
Banana was awful, worst one of the lot, but overall I have preferred Cucumber anyway.
I will be sad to see it end, i had grown fond of the characters. I liked Cleo and especially Cliff. I'll miss Dean, Henry, Lance and Freddie too. I know many people moaned on here (a lot!) but i liked it.