So, in a nutshell, your choices have been made for you by the herd. We bang on here and in other forums about getting a decent surround system rather than something basic or an all-in-one kit for overcoming exactly the situation you find yourself in.
that's a cop-out
don't disagree with your logic, but it's clear that it should work (Samsung are adamant that it does), so I am leaning towards a screw up in the software.
i am saying that, where a tv has a freeview hd tuner, but only 2 built in speakers, there is,no incentive to include audio transcoding back into ac3 for a possible 5.1 sound input. Since it increases cost but to little effect. Despite what the official rules might require.
Why on earth would the TV need to include 2.0 to 5.1 transcoding when the source signal already is 5.1 in either DD format (Sky) or AAC format (Freeview)? Simply pass it "as is".
The fact that many TVS don't pass it is the issue.
exactly, it's happy to do all the conversions from 5.1/2.1/etc down to 2 speakers on internally sourced streams, just not from HDMI.
It's always peeved me about the low sound that comes from Sky HD boxes. Sometimes you have the TV at full volume to hear the talking.
that's been a problem for a while, was created back when Sky changed their EPG and removed the volume control from setup (at least a couple of years back).
don't disagree with your logic, but it's clear that it should work (Samsung are adamant that it does), so I am leaning towards a screw up in the software.
No, it's a simple fact of how the majority of TVs work.
If your TV should pass DD5.1 from a source HDMI to the ARC HDMI and yet it doesn't, then it could be software related as you think. But I wouldn't rule out the surround system not handling DD5.1 via HDMI ARC or Samsung customer support not fully understanding how their own product works. One other possibility is that the Sky box is reading the lowest common denominator and setting the signal output accordingly. If you had an AV Receiver with HDMI inputs then you'd be able to route the Sky and TV ARC signals into that to check exactly what format and configuration is being transmitted.
the transcoding issue is about converting from the freeview hd sound codec into the ac3 codec required for 5.1 sound. Some tv sets may well accept the 5.1 digital input, from a sky box for example, but be unable to convert ac3 into audio streams. Since this isn't used in a freeview hd tuner ....
lack of transcoding was an issue on some freeview hd pvrs, but i think all the current models can output in ac3, for reproducing 5.1 instead of 2.0. On a home cinema system. On the few occasions freeview actually has it ........
just to be clear ...... it seems unlikely that a tv with freeview hd tuner will also have an ac3 transcoder, and also a dolby 5.1 chipset, plus a 5.1 to 2.0 converter, built in, when just feeding 2.0 to the 2 speakers gives an identical result.......
On the SKY HD+ box, it says Dolby Digital on the front panel of the box and on the sound settings there is a Dolby Digital "option" but after selecting that option to test one film, the rest of the films I've watched so far produce no sound when I select Dolby Digital on the sound settings but the sound comes back on if I select the sound settings as normal.
Can/do Sky HD+ boxes output Dolby Digital to TV's speakers or not? The settings options say the following.....
Audio Output Stereo
Digital Audio Output - Optical Dolby D
Digital Audio Output - HDMI - Normal (though you can switch to Dolby D but its only given sound once on that option!)
Digital Audio Output Delay - 0ms. (what does that mean?)
Thanks in advance of your replies.
delay is the haas effect. But this works only in cinemas. For home cinema, 5.1 is output as "surround stereo", whereas in 2.0 pro logic mode outputs as "amplitude steering". These differ from each other, and the more accurate haas precedence effect used in cinemas ......
No, it's a simple fact of how the majority of TVs work.
If your TV should pass DD5.1 from a source HDMI to the ARC HDMI and yet it doesn't, then it could be software related as you think. But I wouldn't rule out the surround system not handling DD5.1 via HDMI ARC or Samsung customer support not fully understanding how their own product works. One other possibility is that the Sky box is reading the lowest common denominator and setting the signal output accordingly. If you had an AV Receiver with HDMI inputs then you'd be able to route the Sky and TV ARC signals into that to check exactly what format and configuration is being transmitted.
it's perfectly capable of sending 5.1 over HDMI ARC, if the source is TV (Freesat/Freeview) or smarthub app (Plex/netflix/etc)
the transcoding issue is about converting from the freeview hd sound codec into the ac3 codec required for 5.1 sound. Some tv sets may well accept the 5.1 digital input, from a sky box for example, but be unable to convert ac3 into audio streams. Since this isn't used in a freeview hd tuner ....
lack of transcoding was an issue on some freeview hd pvrs, but i think all the current models can output in ac3, for reproducing 5.1 instead of 2.0. On a home cinema system. On the few occasions freeview actually has it ........
just to be clear ...... it seems unlikely that a tv with freeview hd tuner will also have an ac3 transcoder, and also a dolby 5.1 chipset, plus a 5.1 to 2.0 converter, built in, when just feeding 2.0 to the 2 speakers gives an identical result.......
not asking it to convert 5.1 to 2, although it can do this no problem as long as the source is not HDMI.
did some more testing, using a laptop's HDMI output, it won't accept anything in any format other than 2 channel PCM.
delay is the haas effect. But this works only in cinemas. For home cinema, 5.1 is output as "surround stereo", whereas in 2.0 pro logic mode outputs as "amplitude steering". These differ from each other, and the more accurate haas precedence effect used in cinemas ......
No, delay in a sky box is the time taken for the tv to produce the picture vs the time taken for the sound to come out of the speakers when using an external amp. The more processing the tv does to produce the picture, the longer it takes. Thus the sky box can be adjusted so the sound is in sync with the picture.
If you are not using an external amp it shouldn't apply as the tv should delay the sound by the processing time automatically.
delay is the haas effect. But this works only in cinemas. For home cinema, 5.1 is output as "surround stereo", whereas in 2.0 pro logic mode outputs as "amplitude steering". These differ from each other, and the more accurate haas precedence effect used in cinemas ......
No it's not, it is used to adjust lip sync when the sound is fed directly to an external sound system rather than via the TV. Haas delay is used on all domestic and professional decoders in 2ch Dolby surround mode. Its adjustment, together with compensating delays on other channels tends to be part of the units auto calibrate facility. Amplitude steering has only ever been used on the CBS SQ quadraphonic system. Dolby surround uses variable phase cancelation as did the Sansui QS quadraphonic system. There seems to have been a sharing of technology between Sansui and Dolby in the early days, Sansui chips were fitted into early Dolby surround decoders.
it's perfectly capable of sending 5.1 over HDMI ARC, if the source is TV (Freesat/Freeview) or smarthub app (Plex/netflix/etc)
only problem is it won't accept it over HDMI
did some more testing, using a laptop's HDMI output, it won't accept anything in any format other than 2 channel PCM.
Right, so it's hobbled like most TVs, which is pretty much what we've said. The TV handshakes with the source (the EDID handshake) and reports its capabilities (Hello world, hello Blu-ray player, here's my signal protocol, I can accept PCM stereo) and the BD player or other source responds in kind.
This brings us back to "Samsung says it can do it", and what I said about Samsung not really understanding their own product. e.g. The spec sheet says the TV has DD but doesn't make the distinction between DD for DVB-T2/USB/Apps and DD for external sources via HDMI which is essentially DD pass-thru.
Unless Samsung are going to change the firmware and add any required hardware then long story short you're still at the same place: Buy an AV Receiver + speaker kit and connect sources to that.
ok, sorry, silly me. Of course the delay must be sound lipsynch, since a sky box doesnt output direct to 6 speakers. Has just the 5.1 bitstream out. However, the delay adjustments on home cinema are fairly useless, since the haas effect works very badly in living rooms due to small size compared with a cinema .......
5.1 doesn't work, as already pointed out, because it would require several additional chipsets inside the tv, plus transcoding, not to my mention the dolby royalty payments. For an identical result to sending 2.0 directly to the 2 speakers without these complications ........
.... freeview pvrs have to transcode into ac3, for the 5.1 output, which means a royalty payment to dolby, but they dont need the additional 5.1 chipsets .....
with me you dont just get the occasional daft mistake, but extra pedantry. Entirely free. The only audio format i know of that uses Pulse Code Modulation is cd. And maybe some esoteric super hi fi systems which use either pcm or lossless codecs. But nearly all audio in everyday uses lossy codecs similar to mp3 ........
ok, sorry, silly me. Of course the delay must be sound lipsynch, since a sky box doesnt output direct to 6 speakers. Has just the 5.1 bitstream out. However, the delay adjustments on home cinema are fairly useless, since the haas effect works very badly in living rooms due to small size compared with a cinema .......
The HAAS effect work perfectly with with headphones. That's a considerably smaller space than a living room. HAAS is about perceived depth created by a secondary echo delayed on the other channels to the main direction. The size of the room won't have a lot of impact unless it is very reflective.
Also, very few devices stream in multichannel audio (either analogue or PCM). By far the most common method of sending multichannel is as bit stream audio that the receiver then decodes.
5.1 doesn't work, as already pointed out, because it would require several additional chipsets inside the tv, plus transcoding, not to my mention the dolby royalty payments. For an identical result to sending 2.0 directly to the 2 speakers without these complications ........
.... freeview pvrs have to transcode into ac3, for the 5.1 output, which means a royalty payment to dolby, but they dont need the additional 5.1 chipsets .....
There's no reason why PVRs have to decode and convert AAC to AC3. Those that do have the feature because the manufacturer deemed it important.
with me you dont just get the occasional daft mistake, but extra pedantry. Entirely free. The only audio format i know of that uses Pulse Code Modulation is cd. And maybe some esoteric super hi fi systems which use either pcm or lossless codecs. But nearly all audio in everyday uses lossy codecs siimportantumilar to mp3 ........
PCM is common for any device outputting audio in a digital format. It is the digital equivalent of analogue audio. So it is available from a huge variety of devices.
with me you dont just get the occasional daft mistake, but extra pedantry. Entirely free. The only audio format i know of that uses Pulse Code Modulation is cd. And maybe some esoteric super hi fi systems which use either pcm or lossless codecs. But nearly all audio in everyday uses lossy codecs similar to mp3 ........
You are missing the point. SD channels (terrestrial and satellite) use mpeg1 layer 2 audio (MP2). The box/TV converts to PCM for it's digital outputs (anyone with a AV receiver can prove this). Presumably TV's don't have MP2 decoders. This is why on Humax boxes the volume can be varied on SD channels but not on HD channels unless the option to convert to PCM output is selected. The only way to access the MP2 audio is by directly copying the recording files.
You are missing the point. SD channels (terrestrial and satellite) use mpeg1 layer 2 audio (MP2). The box/TV converts to PCM for it's digital outputs (anyone with a AV receiver can prove this). Presumably TV's don't have MP2 decoders. This is why on Humax boxes the volume can be varied on SD channels but not on HD channels unless the option to convert to PCM output is selected. The only way to access the MP2 audio is by directly copying the recording files.
no.i am exactly on the point. The extra circuitry which would be needed to convert 5.1 to feed just 2 speakers via ac3 trascoding is not included, because it would increase tbe cost but with no advantage over 2.0.
The HAAS effect work perfectly with with headphones. That's a considerably smaller space than a living room. HAAS is about perceived depth created by a secondary echo delayed on the other channels to the main direction. The size of the room won't have a lot of impact unless it is very reflective.
Also, very few devices stream in multichannel audio (either analogue or PCM). By far the most common method of sending multichannel is as bit stream audio that the receiver then decodes.
Sorry but no. It's not an "identical" result.
There's no reason why PVRs have to decode and convert AAC to AC3. Those that do have the feature because the manufacturer deemed it important.
PCM is common for any device outputting audio in a digital format. It is the digital equivalent of analogue audio. So it is available from a huge variety of devices.
pcm is converting a waveform time varying voltage directly into numbers, sent digitally. Whereas nearly all audio uses codecs, involving a fourier transform.
freeview hd pvrs are now required to transcode 5.1 from native codec into ac3. It has been written into the latest freeview receiver requirements ...... Whereas freeview sd pvrs can only convert the 2.0 codec direcly to.analogue, although this is still matrixed surround sound.
no.i am exactly on the point. The extra circuitry which would be needed to convert 5.1 to feed just 2 speakers via ac3 trascoding is not included, because it would increase tbe cost but with no advantage over 2.0.
Did you actually read my post or do you not understand it ?
The only audio format i know of that uses Pulse Code Modulation is cd. And maybe some esoteric super hi fi systems which use either pcm or lossless codecs. But nearly all audio in everyday uses lossy codecs similar to mp3 ........
You said only CD's use PCM that is 100% wrong. The transmitted audio on SD is mpeg compressed but converted to PCM for output. Do you really want me to post some photos to prove how wrong you are ?
Source HDR1000S Freetime satellite box
AV receiver Yamaha RX-A840 Aventage
BBC 1 (SD)
On Screen Audio Information
Audio Input
Format PCM
Channel 2.0 (2/0/---)
Sampling 48kHz
BBC1-HD
Format Dolby Digital
Channel 2.0 (2/0/---)
Sampling 48kHz
Bitrate 192kbps
Do you actually have any of this kit or is it just made up information ?
Did you actually read my post or do you not understand it ?
You said only CD's use PCM that is 100% wrong. The transmitted audio on SD is mpeg compressed but converted to PCM for output. Do you really want me to post some photos to prove how wrong you are ?
pulse code modulation is a very specific technique and used pretty much only on cds nowadays. Whereas a fourier transform is the 1st step in all audio codecs. This is correct. Feel free to look uo pulse code modulation on wikipedia etc ........
Comments
don't disagree with your logic, but it's clear that it should work (Samsung are adamant that it does), so I am leaning towards a screw up in the software.
exactly, it's happy to do all the conversions from 5.1/2.1/etc down to 2 speakers on internally sourced streams, just not from HDMI.
that's been a problem for a while, was created back when Sky changed their EPG and removed the volume control from setup (at least a couple of years back).
No, it's a simple fact of how the majority of TVs work.
If your TV should pass DD5.1 from a source HDMI to the ARC HDMI and yet it doesn't, then it could be software related as you think. But I wouldn't rule out the surround system not handling DD5.1 via HDMI ARC or Samsung customer support not fully understanding how their own product works. One other possibility is that the Sky box is reading the lowest common denominator and setting the signal output accordingly. If you had an AV Receiver with HDMI inputs then you'd be able to route the Sky and TV ARC signals into that to check exactly what format and configuration is being transmitted.
it's perfectly capable of sending 5.1 over HDMI ARC, if the source is TV (Freesat/Freeview) or smarthub app (Plex/netflix/etc)
only problem is it won't accept it over HDMI
not sure that's relevant? ??
not asking it to convert 5.1 to 2, although it can do this no problem as long as the source is not HDMI.
did some more testing, using a laptop's HDMI output, it won't accept anything in any format other than 2 channel PCM.
No, delay in a sky box is the time taken for the tv to produce the picture vs the time taken for the sound to come out of the speakers when using an external amp. The more processing the tv does to produce the picture, the longer it takes. Thus the sky box can be adjusted so the sound is in sync with the picture.
If you are not using an external amp it shouldn't apply as the tv should delay the sound by the processing time automatically.
No it's not, it is used to adjust lip sync when the sound is fed directly to an external sound system rather than via the TV. Haas delay is used on all domestic and professional decoders in 2ch Dolby surround mode. Its adjustment, together with compensating delays on other channels tends to be part of the units auto calibrate facility. Amplitude steering has only ever been used on the CBS SQ quadraphonic system. Dolby surround uses variable phase cancelation as did the Sansui QS quadraphonic system. There seems to have been a sharing of technology between Sansui and Dolby in the early days, Sansui chips were fitted into early Dolby surround decoders.
Right, so it's hobbled like most TVs, which is pretty much what we've said. The TV handshakes with the source (the EDID handshake) and reports its capabilities (Hello world, hello Blu-ray player, here's my signal protocol, I can accept PCM stereo) and the BD player or other source responds in kind.
This brings us back to "Samsung says it can do it", and what I said about Samsung not really understanding their own product. e.g. The spec sheet says the TV has DD but doesn't make the distinction between DD for DVB-T2/USB/Apps and DD for external sources via HDMI which is essentially DD pass-thru.
Unless Samsung are going to change the firmware and add any required hardware then long story short you're still at the same place: Buy an AV Receiver + speaker kit and connect sources to that.
Also, very few devices stream in multichannel audio (either analogue or PCM). By far the most common method of sending multichannel is as bit stream audio that the receiver then decodes.
Sorry but no. It's not an "identical" result.
There's no reason why PVRs have to decode and convert AAC to AC3. Those that do have the feature because the manufacturer deemed it important.
PCM is common for any device outputting audio in a digital format. It is the digital equivalent of analogue audio. So it is available from a huge variety of devices.
You are missing the point. SD channels (terrestrial and satellite) use mpeg1 layer 2 audio (MP2). The box/TV converts to PCM for it's digital outputs (anyone with a AV receiver can prove this). Presumably TV's don't have MP2 decoders. This is why on Humax boxes the volume can be varied on SD channels but not on HD channels unless the option to convert to PCM output is selected. The only way to access the MP2 audio is by directly copying the recording files.
Did you actually read my post or do you not understand it ?
You said only CD's use PCM that is 100% wrong. The transmitted audio on SD is mpeg compressed but converted to PCM for output. Do you really want me to post some photos to prove how wrong you are ?
Source HDR1000S Freetime satellite box
AV receiver Yamaha RX-A840 Aventage
BBC 1 (SD)
On Screen Audio Information
Audio Input
Format PCM
Channel 2.0 (2/0/---)
Sampling 48kHz
BBC1-HD
Format Dolby Digital
Channel 2.0 (2/0/---)
Sampling 48kHz
Bitrate 192kbps
Do you actually have any of this kit or is it just made up information ?