You're basically giving the trigger's broom argument as a get out.
If I am understanding you your argument is that because no evidence was found in this study that MtF transgender were feminized this means that their brains are not obviously female in the eyes of this one study.
My point was that - even if this is correct - then it simply means the cause for being trangender is not proven by this one small scale study to be in the areas of the brain here studied.
This leaves lots of other options that are not like Trigger's broom as you put it.
Because our understanding of brain physiology is still limited and there might be differences and causes found in areas not yet studied.
Or the cause might lie elsewhere in physiology - a genetic marker not yet found for example.
So even if there are no differences in brain structures at all I am unsure how this makes it absurd to consider changing men into women if that is regarded as the preferable treatment course for the transgender condition.
As this condition clearly has been established by science to exist whether we have found its cause, or not. Which I said in my earlier posts may or may not be true as the findings are contentious.
The search for explanations is to me quite different from the efficacy of the best treatment method for the condition.
I am still unclear why these findings make it 'absurd' to persist with a proven successful procedure that has helped turn around tens of thousands of transgender patients and has been adopted now by most major countries on Earth.
The other papers are trying to something, and never quite find it but leave it open ended.
That paper admits where it is and sticks to the facts rather than hoping something might happen in the future.
But why does it matter so much whether this paper or that paper is right? Even if we accept that we do not know the cause of being transgender at all - which until recently nobody professed to do as these studies were not even feasible - then why does it effect your view on the modern treatment regime.
Are you saying that if nothing is found to be awry with brain chemistry then transgender is not a real condition so not something to be treated in a physical way?
Because psychiatry has tried hard to find an effective cure that does not involve physical intervention. Nobody has done so.
In the meantime people still have this problem and need help.
So why not use the best proven solution - gender reassigment?
It works. It helps most people successfully integrate and contribute to society. It is surely better than telling them to stop imagining things and go away.
If you ruled the world, eh? You do realize that there is a trans woman debating in this thread, and that what is just a larky debate to you is someone trying to rubbish her whole life to her?
Let's destroy all facts and science encase they offend someone!
Let's destroy all facts and science encase they offend someone!
yes, because "trying to turn a man into a women is an absurdity." is SUCH a scientific comment. I really don't see how anyone can question the readings you have taken with your absurditometer.
Jaycee, I'm saying that men are men and women are women.
There is nothing to suggest, anywhere, that people end up with a brain in the wrong body.
The most conclusive paper posted on here states that there is nothing to suggest that transsexuals have female brains in men's bodies.
So changing a few bits and bobs and pumping yourself full of hormones is not going to turn you into a female.
Life is far less black and white than you suggest. F to M transgender people generally take hefty doses of testosterone, and say that they DO feel much more stereotypically masculine. They have indeed acquired a 'male brain'; they often report that they find a lot of female conversation difficult to tolerate, for example. They feel more aggressive and less emotional. Their voice drops an octave and they acquire a male hair pattern. It is so difficult to see any difference between them and cis-men that in a tv series about transgender people, when one trans man attended a gender clinic, it was assumed that he was a cis man there to ask about transitioning to female.
Delusions, people need to accept they are what they are.
People should stop encouraging delusions and encourage people to be comfortable as they are.
If I woke up tomorrow with a fanny i'd shrug my shoulders and get on with it, i wouldn't be bothered at all.
I'd not change a thing in how i live my live as it wouldn't make any difference.
Here is your full post I've quoted from above.
Sure you would and of course it wouldn't bother you at all. It wouldn't make any difference at all, even down to how you perform or not sexually, go to the bathroom...
Sure you would and of course it wouldn't bother you at all. It wouldn't make any difference at all, even down to how you perform or not sexually, go to the bathroom...
[QUOTE=NorwoodCemetery;77651284]I've seen a good deal of reportage on recent cases/studies of transgendered children. Not sure if it's just coincident articles I've come across but it appears to be something of hot topic.
I've watched/read plenty of testimony from post/pre-op transgenders, and many do cite mental conflict/confusion during their formative years.
But even with the best psychiatry, can we reall apply the transgender label to children as old as 4, 5, 6? Is this the correct way to handle such cases?[/QUOTE]
Sorry, you've seen? On TV? Or did you hear it, on the radio, perhaps?
Jaycee, I'm saying that men are men and women are women.
There is nothing to suggest, anywhere, that people end up with a brain in the wrong body.
The most conclusive paper posted on here states that there is nothing to suggest that transsexuals have female brains in men's bodies.
So changing a few bits and bobs and pumping yourself full of hormones is not going to turn you into a female.
You are saying that you believe men are men and women are women. This does not match the reality of nature though.
Here there have always been cases where what to you is an apparently clean distinction is not clear at all due to physical abnormalities that were visible to the midwife.
So these external abnormalities were used as the basis for the 'best fit' to decide whether the child was male or female when it was not immediately obvious. The child was brought up to BE that gender and they either fitted in or not.
This was the case for thousands of years.
Then, more recently, say the last 100 years, we developed technology that let us see inside the body and discover that in some other cases people that on the outside looked like a man or a woman had the internal organs of the other sex. Up until that point such people were born, lived, died and never knew this fact.
In fact they still do.In February a Lancashire man tested for fear he had bladder cancer discovered at 37 that he had a full set of female internal organs. He could have got pregnant they were that functional. But he had been raised as a man, felt like a man and was living with a woman. He had to have a hysterectomy. Yet he could quite conceivably have gone his whole life unaware he was biologically a woman.
I do not presume you think he should be told that his past 37 years were a lie and by your rules he cannot be a man so he should stop being deluded into pretending to be one and go find a husband and get pregnant.
Frankly I doubt anyone with any human compassion would think that for a moment.
So why is it difficult to think that people who grow up as transgender - something nobody who experiences it chooses or wants to have but has no escape from because it is there from early childhood to forever - might have something, somewhere inside of them that has somehow caused this disconnect to occur? But that as yet we don't have the science to see inside and find out what it is.
Some alteration in the brain is just one possibility that some scientists have looked for. It might not be there. It might be inside DNA or other aspects of human genetics.
Until very recently nobody knew there was such a thing as a breast cancer gene. This predisposes someone with that marker to be likely to develop the disease. We can now inform them and some are choosing to have mastectomies (I suppose in your view mutilating their bodies) to pre empt the possible consequences of having this genetic marker.
Yet for thousands of years human beings will have carried this inside of us without anybody having a clue. People got breast cancer. For a long time nobody knew what it was and they died. Then they figured out what it was and found ways to try to treat it but still did not know the precise cause in the genetic marker. But they treated the patient as best as possible without having that actual discovery yet.
It is almost certain that one day someone will discover what causes transgender conditions to occur. There might even be a genetic marker. Right now we don't know but it in no way should be used as an excuse not to help fellow human beings who are suffering a pretty terrible misfortune just because we are not yet clever enough to understand why it is happening.
The only reason anybody argues this way is because they have concluded it must be a mental illness or delusion that should be treated as such. The problem is that science has moved in the opposite direction from that initial suspicion towards now expecting some kind of physiological cause as yet undefined.
They have done that for two reasons.
1: The study of thousands of people with this condition pointing to its very early onset and consistent pattern that is suggestive of an actual condition not a delusion.
2: The total failure of psychiatry to find a way to treat the condition with any level of success that would be expected if it were a psychological condition.
Anyone is entitled to hold their own opinion. But the people that matter here are those who experience this trauma and live a lifetime with its consequences. And the many doctors and scientists who have researched it for many years and understand more than any internet debater what is and is not true or should be done about it.
And, by the way, no transgender patient believes they are 'changing sex'. They sign a waiver document that makes clear they understand what is happening to them.
Legally their gender is reassigned. Sex is biological and can be modified but not changed. That is not the perfect solution for these people who would pay millions for a total transformation. But it is the best we can do for now and it is good enough for them.
Though it would be a lot better if some people were not out there willing to tell them they are essential deluded and frauds.
What drastic consequences? A child may be allowed to present as a different gender than their registered gender if they are VERY emphatic and persistent about it. If they change their minds, they can change back.
Not necessarily..
No one is suggesting giving surgery to children. The whole point in offering hormone blockers is that they delay puberty, but are fully reversible, so a teenager can have breathing time to be absolutely sure.
That makes some assumptions. One is that gender identity becomes fixed around 4-5yrs. Then the first stage of puberty begins with adrenarche at around 7-8yrs where kids move to Tanner II. It's not known what triggers this, so this step can't currently be blocked, only surgically altered or nudged in the desired direction with androgens.
Delaying puberty can also increase social pressure/problems. That's something that's long been studied, ie the effects of early/late puberty. So a kid that may be getting bullied because they're smaller or look more effeminate may carry on being bullied as his/her peer group progress through puberty. If someone's struggling with body issues, they'll struggle as the people around them change if they're not supported. But that's a societal problem, ie preventing bullying and allowing people to be themselves.
Hormone blockers mean that trans women can look perfectly feminine and pretty if that is what they want.
Not always. They're not magic bullets. The rest could just be social conditioning/social pressure. Not everyone finds the same kind of woman pretty, and not everyone is attracted to the same ideas of femininity.
in a tv series about transgender people, when one trans man attended a gender clinic, it was assumed that he was a cis man there to ask about transitioning to female.
I watched the Theroux show. There was a man in the clinic there waiting for the next stage of his penis construction. Looked male to me, and to Theroux, and probably to most people. Would he need to be labelled a trans-man? If not, why would someone gender normative need a new lable? Why do we feel the need to label and put people in convenient little boxes rather than just accepting them for who they are?
But I think that was the closing comment on the Theroux show.. Which was interesting.
Highlights for me were Cole/Crystal who seemed happy flitting between genders, along with an idea of where he'd end up.. Which possibly conflicted with his mother's ideas. So probably not trans, and possibly an example of social pressure. Or just a kid having fun.
Then the young kid potentially trans-female. The consultation leading to that diagnosis seemed.. brief, but that's probably just editing. Family (mostly) accepted the situation and had support, and accepted that if the kid changed their mind, they'd support that as well. Cool parents. Much like the older kid who was having some doubts. Like all teenagers do, which is part of growing up and puberty. As the doc says, it's hitting that level of emotional maturity where we start thinking about the future.
Then there were some others who seemed non-trans & more dysphoric who'd avoided being classified as having BIID. But this is America, where lots of people suffer from that to a greater or lesser extent, and make their plastic surgeons a fortune. But those people sometimes get grief from all sides because they don't always fit into our neat little gender ideals.
But like the Doctor said, it's generally better to intervene than not, and risk self-harm or suicide. Like Jaycee says, it's about providing support, including trying to figure out if it's the kid's own choice.
Because it felt like one more attempt to diminish the topic, by writing as if gender dysphoria was somehow akin to being put in a dress without in any way inviting such behaviour. And somehow one step worse than those who seem to think it is a simple matter of girls wanting to play with toy cars or boys with toy hoovers.
Not at all. I was merely stating a known fact about Macnee but also went on to state in another post that it's far from uncommon for little boys to play around with mums heeled shoes or paint their faces with makeup. That doesn't mean they are going to be transgendered in later life and i really don't know why some people appear to think this to be the case. It's almost as if they are hoping it will be.
You are saying that you believe men are men and women are women. This does not match the reality of nature though.
Here there have always been cases where what to you is an apparently clean distinction is not clear at all due to physical abnormalities that were visible to the midwife.
So these external abnormalities were used as the basis for the 'best fit' to decide whether the child was male or female when it was not immediately obvious. The child was brought up to BE that gender and they either fitted in or not.
This was the case for thousands of years.
Then, more recently, say the last 100 years, we developed technology that let us see inside the body and discover that in some other cases people that on the outside looked like a man or a woman had the internal organs of the other sex. Up until that point such people were born, lived, died and never knew this fact.
In fact they still do.In February a Lancashire man tested for fear he had bladder cancer discovered at 37 that he had a full set of female internal organs. He could have got pregnant they were that functional. But he had been raised as a man, felt like a man and was living with a woman. He had to have a hysterectomy. Yet he could quite conceivably have gone his whole life unaware he was biologically a woman.
I do not presume you think he should be told that his past 37 years were a lie and by your rules he cannot be a man so he should stop being deluded into pretending to be one and go find a husband and get pregnant.
Frankly I doubt anyone with any human compassion would think that for a moment.
.
Biologically he was intersex, not a woman.
Someone else has already tried to use intersex, or as they put it, hermaphrodite people and asked me to put them in one of societies boxes.
I'm concerned this is just another medical fashion and the children are practically being experimented on.. Like "correcting" gender in babies. The long term effect can't be known until quite a few of the children are mature and the issue of informed consent is dubious.
I'm concerned this is just another medical fashion and the children are practically being experimented on.. Like "correcting" gender in babies. The long term effect can't be known until quite a few of the children are mature and the issue of informed consent is dubious.
The childen are being given the chance to live lives that make them happier now... and then given the opportunity to develop in whichever direction that continues to make them happy. The alternative is to force them to comply with whatever gender they present as physically, which is what is making them unhappy in the first place. Waiting until they are adults is the problem... not the solution.
I'm concerned this is just another medical fashion and the children are practically being experimented on.. Like "correcting" gender in babies. The long term effect can't be known until quite a few of the children are mature and the issue of informed consent is dubious.
I'm more concerned that without intervention, these kids are killing themselves.
Let's just ignore it and watch more kids die, sounds like a great solution.
Someone else has already tried to use intersex, or as they put it, hermaphrodite people and asked me to put them in one of societies boxes.
I am not asking you to put anyone into a box. Quite the opposite.
But you did say men are men and women are women and here was a man who could be either. So it is not always so clear cut.
I am asking why you think it must be with those who are transgender?
I get the impression that if they discovered a biological cause like they have with intersex then you would accept this. But as nobody has so far you err on the side of assuming there will not be one so transgender people should all just accept their lot until they do.
I prefer that we err on the side of helping people who suffer like this. A successful treatment regime exists. Why not follow it?
Do you have an alternative way to treat these people that will be as successful?
I am not asking you to put anyone into a box. Quite the opposite.
But you did say men are men and women are women and here was a man who could be either. So it is not always so clear cut.
I am asking why you think it must be with those who are transgender?
I get the impression that if they discovered a biological cause like they have with intersex then you would accept this. But as nobody has so far you err on the side of assuming there will not be one so transgender people should all just accept their lot until they do.
I prefer that we err on the side of helping people who suffer like this. A successful treatment regime exists. Why not follow it?
Do you have an alternative way to treat these people that will be as successful?
Just because you throw bananas in the fruit bowl it doesn't cancel out the presence of the apples and oranges.
Intersex individuals do not stop men being men and women being women.
Comments
If I am understanding you your argument is that because no evidence was found in this study that MtF transgender were feminized this means that their brains are not obviously female in the eyes of this one study.
My point was that - even if this is correct - then it simply means the cause for being trangender is not proven by this one small scale study to be in the areas of the brain here studied.
This leaves lots of other options that are not like Trigger's broom as you put it.
Because our understanding of brain physiology is still limited and there might be differences and causes found in areas not yet studied.
Or the cause might lie elsewhere in physiology - a genetic marker not yet found for example.
So even if there are no differences in brain structures at all I am unsure how this makes it absurd to consider changing men into women if that is regarded as the preferable treatment course for the transgender condition.
As this condition clearly has been established by science to exist whether we have found its cause, or not. Which I said in my earlier posts may or may not be true as the findings are contentious.
The search for explanations is to me quite different from the efficacy of the best treatment method for the condition.
I am still unclear why these findings make it 'absurd' to persist with a proven successful procedure that has helped turn around tens of thousands of transgender patients and has been adopted now by most major countries on Earth.
But why does it matter so much whether this paper or that paper is right? Even if we accept that we do not know the cause of being transgender at all - which until recently nobody professed to do as these studies were not even feasible - then why does it effect your view on the modern treatment regime.
Are you saying that if nothing is found to be awry with brain chemistry then transgender is not a real condition so not something to be treated in a physical way?
Because psychiatry has tried hard to find an effective cure that does not involve physical intervention. Nobody has done so.
In the meantime people still have this problem and need help.
So why not use the best proven solution - gender reassigment?
It works. It helps most people successfully integrate and contribute to society. It is surely better than telling them to stop imagining things and go away.
Let's destroy all facts and science encase they offend someone!
yes, because "trying to turn a man into a women is an absurdity." is SUCH a scientific comment. I really don't see how anyone can question the readings you have taken with your absurditometer.
There is nothing to suggest, anywhere, that people end up with a brain in the wrong body.
The most conclusive paper posted on here states that there is nothing to suggest that transsexuals have female brains in men's bodies.
So changing a few bits and bobs and pumping yourself full of hormones is not going to turn you into a female.
Apparently you would though? "If I woke up tomorrow with a fanny I would just get on with it."
Seriously. And talking of seriously, why anyone else can take you seriously when you post this stuff is beyond laughable.
Wouldn't bother me though.
Doubt it would bother most people after the initial shock of it.
Life is far less black and white than you suggest. F to M transgender people generally take hefty doses of testosterone, and say that they DO feel much more stereotypically masculine. They have indeed acquired a 'male brain'; they often report that they find a lot of female conversation difficult to tolerate, for example. They feel more aggressive and less emotional. Their voice drops an octave and they acquire a male hair pattern. It is so difficult to see any difference between them and cis-men that in a tv series about transgender people, when one trans man attended a gender clinic, it was assumed that he was a cis man there to ask about transitioning to female.
This is not a woman.
Nor is this.
Deliberately steering away from beauty queens etc. This IS a woman.
no one can know that for sure. and you'll never be able say there isnt a validity to my trans-feelings unless you experience them for yourselves...
Here is your full post I've quoted from above.
Sure you would and of course it wouldn't bother you at all. It wouldn't make any difference at all, even down to how you perform or not sexually, go to the bathroom...
As you say some people are delusional.
I always sit down when I have a wee anyway.
I feel male in my brain, not female. There could be people (trans) that, from birth, feel female and yet were born with a male's body.
that would be me, then....
I've watched/read plenty of testimony from post/pre-op transgenders, and many do cite mental conflict/confusion during their formative years.
But even with the best psychiatry, can we reall apply the transgender label to children as old as 4, 5, 6? Is this the correct way to handle such cases?[/QUOTE]
Sorry, you've seen? On TV? Or did you hear it, on the radio, perhaps?
You are saying that you believe men are men and women are women. This does not match the reality of nature though.
Here there have always been cases where what to you is an apparently clean distinction is not clear at all due to physical abnormalities that were visible to the midwife.
So these external abnormalities were used as the basis for the 'best fit' to decide whether the child was male or female when it was not immediately obvious. The child was brought up to BE that gender and they either fitted in or not.
This was the case for thousands of years.
Then, more recently, say the last 100 years, we developed technology that let us see inside the body and discover that in some other cases people that on the outside looked like a man or a woman had the internal organs of the other sex. Up until that point such people were born, lived, died and never knew this fact.
In fact they still do.In February a Lancashire man tested for fear he had bladder cancer discovered at 37 that he had a full set of female internal organs. He could have got pregnant they were that functional. But he had been raised as a man, felt like a man and was living with a woman. He had to have a hysterectomy. Yet he could quite conceivably have gone his whole life unaware he was biologically a woman.
I do not presume you think he should be told that his past 37 years were a lie and by your rules he cannot be a man so he should stop being deluded into pretending to be one and go find a husband and get pregnant.
Frankly I doubt anyone with any human compassion would think that for a moment.
So why is it difficult to think that people who grow up as transgender - something nobody who experiences it chooses or wants to have but has no escape from because it is there from early childhood to forever - might have something, somewhere inside of them that has somehow caused this disconnect to occur? But that as yet we don't have the science to see inside and find out what it is.
Some alteration in the brain is just one possibility that some scientists have looked for. It might not be there. It might be inside DNA or other aspects of human genetics.
Until very recently nobody knew there was such a thing as a breast cancer gene. This predisposes someone with that marker to be likely to develop the disease. We can now inform them and some are choosing to have mastectomies (I suppose in your view mutilating their bodies) to pre empt the possible consequences of having this genetic marker.
Yet for thousands of years human beings will have carried this inside of us without anybody having a clue. People got breast cancer. For a long time nobody knew what it was and they died. Then they figured out what it was and found ways to try to treat it but still did not know the precise cause in the genetic marker. But they treated the patient as best as possible without having that actual discovery yet.
It is almost certain that one day someone will discover what causes transgender conditions to occur. There might even be a genetic marker. Right now we don't know but it in no way should be used as an excuse not to help fellow human beings who are suffering a pretty terrible misfortune just because we are not yet clever enough to understand why it is happening.
The only reason anybody argues this way is because they have concluded it must be a mental illness or delusion that should be treated as such. The problem is that science has moved in the opposite direction from that initial suspicion towards now expecting some kind of physiological cause as yet undefined.
They have done that for two reasons.
1: The study of thousands of people with this condition pointing to its very early onset and consistent pattern that is suggestive of an actual condition not a delusion.
2: The total failure of psychiatry to find a way to treat the condition with any level of success that would be expected if it were a psychological condition.
Anyone is entitled to hold their own opinion. But the people that matter here are those who experience this trauma and live a lifetime with its consequences. And the many doctors and scientists who have researched it for many years and understand more than any internet debater what is and is not true or should be done about it.
And, by the way, no transgender patient believes they are 'changing sex'. They sign a waiver document that makes clear they understand what is happening to them.
Legally their gender is reassigned. Sex is biological and can be modified but not changed. That is not the perfect solution for these people who would pay millions for a total transformation. But it is the best we can do for now and it is good enough for them.
Though it would be a lot better if some people were not out there willing to tell them they are essential deluded and frauds.
Are you a scientist?
Not necessarily..
That makes some assumptions. One is that gender identity becomes fixed around 4-5yrs. Then the first stage of puberty begins with adrenarche at around 7-8yrs where kids move to Tanner II. It's not known what triggers this, so this step can't currently be blocked, only surgically altered or nudged in the desired direction with androgens.
Delaying puberty can also increase social pressure/problems. That's something that's long been studied, ie the effects of early/late puberty. So a kid that may be getting bullied because they're smaller or look more effeminate may carry on being bullied as his/her peer group progress through puberty. If someone's struggling with body issues, they'll struggle as the people around them change if they're not supported. But that's a societal problem, ie preventing bullying and allowing people to be themselves.
Not always. They're not magic bullets. The rest could just be social conditioning/social pressure. Not everyone finds the same kind of woman pretty, and not everyone is attracted to the same ideas of femininity.
I watched the Theroux show. There was a man in the clinic there waiting for the next stage of his penis construction. Looked male to me, and to Theroux, and probably to most people. Would he need to be labelled a trans-man? If not, why would someone gender normative need a new lable? Why do we feel the need to label and put people in convenient little boxes rather than just accepting them for who they are?
But I think that was the closing comment on the Theroux show.. Which was interesting.
Highlights for me were Cole/Crystal who seemed happy flitting between genders, along with an idea of where he'd end up.. Which possibly conflicted with his mother's ideas. So probably not trans, and possibly an example of social pressure. Or just a kid having fun.
Then the young kid potentially trans-female. The consultation leading to that diagnosis seemed.. brief, but that's probably just editing. Family (mostly) accepted the situation and had support, and accepted that if the kid changed their mind, they'd support that as well. Cool parents. Much like the older kid who was having some doubts. Like all teenagers do, which is part of growing up and puberty. As the doc says, it's hitting that level of emotional maturity where we start thinking about the future.
Then there were some others who seemed non-trans & more dysphoric who'd avoided being classified as having BIID. But this is America, where lots of people suffer from that to a greater or lesser extent, and make their plastic surgeons a fortune. But those people sometimes get grief from all sides because they don't always fit into our neat little gender ideals.
But like the Doctor said, it's generally better to intervene than not, and risk self-harm or suicide. Like Jaycee says, it's about providing support, including trying to figure out if it's the kid's own choice.
It was your post content i was 'assessing'....not your grandson.
Biologically he was intersex, not a woman.
Someone else has already tried to use intersex, or as they put it, hermaphrodite people and asked me to put them in one of societies boxes.
The childen are being given the chance to live lives that make them happier now... and then given the opportunity to develop in whichever direction that continues to make them happy. The alternative is to force them to comply with whatever gender they present as physically, which is what is making them unhappy in the first place. Waiting until they are adults is the problem... not the solution.
I'm more concerned that without intervention, these kids are killing themselves.
Let's just ignore it and watch more kids die, sounds like a great solution.
I am not asking you to put anyone into a box. Quite the opposite.
But you did say men are men and women are women and here was a man who could be either. So it is not always so clear cut.
I am asking why you think it must be with those who are transgender?
I get the impression that if they discovered a biological cause like they have with intersex then you would accept this. But as nobody has so far you err on the side of assuming there will not be one so transgender people should all just accept their lot until they do.
I prefer that we err on the side of helping people who suffer like this. A successful treatment regime exists. Why not follow it?
Do you have an alternative way to treat these people that will be as successful?
What about when these kids start killing themselves because of interventions though?
Then what?
Some lad plays with dolls as a child and you and your lot decide he has to be a 'woman' for the rest of his life.
It's utter madness.
Just because you throw bananas in the fruit bowl it doesn't cancel out the presence of the apples and oranges.
Intersex individuals do not stop men being men and women being women.