There's definitely racism in society, both the overt type and the softer covert type, but I'm not keen on attributing it to groups unless that group's raison d'etre is racist in itself. There's always the danger that you'll end up calling someone a racist when they aren't.
As for UKIP - they definitely have some racists (as do other parties) and it might be more than most given their history and Alan Sked's comments on leaving but it seems counter-productive to me just to dismiss them all as racists as well as unfair on individuals.
I don't like dismissiveness in politics. Anything designed to shut someone up is usually bad. If they are racist then let them talk and expose themselves. I've enough faith in the public to deal with that and reject it.
I didn't say otherwise. The 'loony left' still exists. However, I contend that its contemporary manifestations are not Labour so much as the likes of TUSC and the Greens. You can disagree if you so choose, Steve, and in all honesty I wouldn't expect you to do anything else; but I'll not be taking any lessons from you on what's "nonsense", and such prefaces to your comments are unhelpful and add nothing to discussion.
I wasn't attempting to provide a lesson - just pointing out that despite what you said, ( and now denied it), you DID say otherwise.......Also, Labour hasn't been 'loony left' for a long, long time - not since the Eighties.(unquote)
Labour, despite some minor shifts away from the right-of-centre Blairite position, remains a comparatively anodyne edifice.
That could well be because Red Ed has not made it yet............................and the union barons are still expecting......
I wasn't attempting to provide a lesson - just pointing out that despite what you said, ( and now denied it), you DID say otherwise.......Also, Labour hasn't been 'loony left' for a long, long time - not since the Eighties.(unquote)
Well, at least you quoted me correctly this time around. I have denied nothing that I have said. I said Labour hasn't been 'loony left' for a long, long time, and I stand by that assessment. I did not say, as you originally wrote in your response, that "the loony Left have .. stopped being loony since the 80s". If you're going to criticise, at least get right what it is you're criticising.
That could well be because Red Ed has not made it yet............................and the union barons are still expecting......
This sort of bluster always amuses me - not least because it often comes from people who made up their minds long ago, and nothing their critics could say would change it anyway.
He didn't say he hadn't. He said he was more likely to so do, not that he hadn't previously been so inclined.
Well, at least you quoted me correctly this time around. I have denied nothing that I have said. I said Labour hasn't been 'loony left' for a long, long time, and I stand by that assessment. I did not say, as you originally wrote in your response, that "the loony Left have .. stopped being loony since the 80s". If you're going to criticise, at least get right what it is you're criticising.
Omg soon we will have people claiming that there is no racism in England and it is just an invention of "the loony left"
As for UKIP their racists seem to be of the shouty ex NF and BNP Hooligan in suits variety that wear their bigotry like a badge of honour. Who need to tell just about anyone who'll listen how much they hate black people, gays, benefit claimants, women and East Europeans
There is racism throughout society and not just coming from whites. It feels like it's more acceptable to be openly racist and offensive these days, because people think they are airing the views shared by the majority but I don't accept that the majority are racist they are just fed up being told they are. Some don't realise when they are being racist or how offensive some things are, it's not always intentional.
'White British' is just a census classification for an ethnic group. People that are white and English, Scottish, Northern Irish, or Welsh.
They did not provide the percentage of English people, which is why I can't use it, but I would guess that the English probably make up about 40% of the residents in the capital city of their own country. When age is factored in, many will be pensioners, while the high birth rate is amongst immigrant mothers, that percentage is set to drop in the future.
None of this would be an issue if it was happing all over the world, but it's not, it's just here. The English are simply standing up for themselves because politicians like Chuka don't care about them.
If I was an English migrant living in India and I noticed that Africans and Europeans were now the majority and Indians and their culture were now an ethnic minority, then I doubt I would be bothered. That's why I don't subscribe to Yasmin Alibhai-Brown's argument that only white people are bothered about minority status. Of course they are, because it's only happening to them. I would be fascinated to see her reaction if the Indian scenario came true. She would probably be ranting about colonialists again.
I'd get down to the doctors quickish if I were you. You seem to be infected by the virus too.
British is British. Your obsession with skin colour is embarressing if you are trying to argue ukip isn't racist.
It could be argued that Labour hates traditional Britain. Emily Thornberry & Co. don't like white vans and England flags. Labour famously tried to multiculturalise the country by force using mass immigration as a tool. Blair wanted to ditch our traditions and start again.
What we never hear from politicians like Chuka is how multicultural are the country's that provide our migrants and ethnic minorities? What is the percentage of black people in Africa, what about Asian's in the Indian sub continent, or Chinese in China? It's always about England becoming more modern and diverse. London's ethnicity is less than 45% White British. A third of people are foreigners. When will Labour be satisfied?
Why should England become a north European state based solely on values with no historic cultural identity, while the same is not true of other nations? Is it just a container state for for all the cultures of the world on an equal basis with English culture?
If English people are unhappy about this unfairness and lack of global equality, why should they not complain and try and defend their identity?
I don't support ukip, but how is controlling immigration racist
I don't support ukip, but how is controlling immigration racist
Itsjustmyopinion seems to think the purpose of controlled immigration is to keep Britain white. The policy isn't necessarily racist, but many ukip supporters are.
Itsjustmyopinion seems to think the purpose of controlled immigration is to keep Britain white. The policy isn't necessarily racist, but many ukip supporters are.
Even if that were true, so what???
You're voting for policies, not other voters!
Labour institutionalised totalitarian political correctness.
I have no idea what you mean by "totalitarian political correctness". Political correctness AFAICT is not really intended to be any different to politeness and common decency. Definitions change, though - and ther are invariably people at both ends of the proverbial spectrum who want to push the boundaries in terms of what's considered "common decency" at both ends - both the hypersensitive and the boorish. <shrug>
I'm not really keen on Chuka. He reminds me of a black Ed Balls. They always seem to make unhelpful comments. Stuff like this won't help them win back working class UKIP supporters. I wish Ed would get rid of them in a reshuffle.
It could be argued that Labour hates traditional Britain....
A traditional Britain where landlords could ban a person because of the colour of their skin, when gay men feared being beaten up by traditional Brits, a time when a husband could hit his wife, when it was the females fault if she was raped. Where the working class knew their place.
Or maybe the more traditional era when young children were set to work cleaning chimmneys, when there was no formal schooling, no NHS and no social housing. Back in the good old days of slavery, when the villagers bowed their heads to the lord of the manor. Bring back those great British traditions of bare knuckle fighting and open sewers, yes let's vote for the re-introduction cholera and smallpox.
To be fair though i4u, it wasn't all good. (I better point out I'm being sarcastic.)
I struggle on the "vanishing British culture" idea as well. I just don't feel it. I'm not sure what it even really means. What have we lost? What's under threat?
I get the economic argument. I don't agree or disagree with it because I don't know enough about the economy to make a judgement on the EU question or to know what the optimum level of immigration to us is but I understand the general worry and am open-minded on the whole thing......but I just don't get the cultural concern. That's where a lot of UKIP voters lose me.
To be fair though i4u, it wasn't all good. (I better point out I'm being sarcastic.)
I struggle on the "vanishing British culture" idea as well. I just don't feel it. I'm not sure what it even really means. What have we lost? What's under threat?
I get the economic argument. I don't agree or disagree with it because I don't know enough about the economy to make a judgement on the EU question or to know what the optimum level of immigration to us is but I understand the general worry and am open-minded on the whole thing......but I just don't get the cultural concern. That's where a lot of UKIP voters lose me.
that's what the vile disgusting david cameroon would like.
Even if that were true, so what???
You're voting for policies, not other voters!
A party is its members. I'm not saying one racist member makes a party racist, but ukip seems to attract far more than its fair share. This can't be coincidence.
I'm not really keen on Chuka. He reminds me of a black Ed Balls. They always seem to make unhelpful comments. Stuff like this won't help them win back working class UKIP supporters. I wish Ed would get rid of them in a reshuffle.
This is what happens when you promote people on a quota system and not by ability
Comments
As for UKIP - they definitely have some racists (as do other parties) and it might be more than most given their history and Alan Sked's comments on leaving but it seems counter-productive to me just to dismiss them all as racists as well as unfair on individuals.
I don't like dismissiveness in politics. Anything designed to shut someone up is usually bad. If they are racist then let them talk and expose themselves. I've enough faith in the public to deal with that and reject it.
That could well be because Red Ed has not made it yet............................and the union barons are still expecting......
Well, at least you quoted me correctly this time around. I have denied nothing that I have said. I said Labour hasn't been 'loony left' for a long, long time, and I stand by that assessment. I did not say, as you originally wrote in your response, that "the loony Left have .. stopped being loony since the 80s". If you're going to criticise, at least get right what it is you're criticising.
Well, that's your conjecture.
He didn't say he hadn't. He said he was more likely to so do, not that he hadn't previously been so inclined.
Political correctness is the ideology of the loony left writ large. All the stuff they're doing here is now mainstream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COt65HZCJaA
Labour institutionalised totalitarian political correctness.
As for UKIP their racists seem to be of the shouty ex NF and BNP Hooligan in suits variety that wear their bigotry like a badge of honour. Who need to tell just about anyone who'll listen how much they hate black people, gays, benefit claimants, women and East Europeans
There is racism throughout society and not just coming from whites. It feels like it's more acceptable to be openly racist and offensive these days, because people think they are airing the views shared by the majority but I don't accept that the majority are racist they are just fed up being told they are. Some don't realise when they are being racist or how offensive some things are, it's not always intentional.
@Nigel_Farage: Members of an extremist group today arrived at a UKIP public meeting, conveniently at the same time as a Mail on Sunday camera arrives.
@Nigel_Farage: To be clear, UKIP will have no truck with extremist organisations and we are the only party to ban BNP Etc from becoming members.
I'd get down to the doctors quickish if I were you. You seem to be infected by the virus too.
British is British. Your obsession with skin colour is embarressing if you are trying to argue ukip isn't racist.
I don't support ukip, but how is controlling immigration racist
Itsjustmyopinion seems to think the purpose of controlled immigration is to keep Britain white. The policy isn't necessarily racist, but many ukip supporters are.
Even if that were true, so what???
You're voting for policies, not other voters!
....and your point is....?
TL;DW.
I have no idea what you mean by "totalitarian political correctness". Political correctness AFAICT is not really intended to be any different to politeness and common decency. Definitions change, though - and ther are invariably people at both ends of the proverbial spectrum who want to push the boundaries in terms of what's considered "common decency" at both ends - both the hypersensitive and the boorish. <shrug>
A traditional Britain where landlords could ban a person because of the colour of their skin, when gay men feared being beaten up by traditional Brits, a time when a husband could hit his wife, when it was the females fault if she was raped. Where the working class knew their place.
Or maybe the more traditional era when young children were set to work cleaning chimmneys, when there was no formal schooling, no NHS and no social housing. Back in the good old days of slavery, when the villagers bowed their heads to the lord of the manor. Bring back those great British traditions of bare knuckle fighting and open sewers, yes let's vote for the re-introduction cholera and smallpox.
I struggle on the "vanishing British culture" idea as well. I just don't feel it. I'm not sure what it even really means. What have we lost? What's under threat?
I get the economic argument. I don't agree or disagree with it because I don't know enough about the economy to make a judgement on the EU question or to know what the optimum level of immigration to us is but I understand the general worry and am open-minded on the whole thing......but I just don't get the cultural concern. That's where a lot of UKIP voters lose me.
that's what the vile disgusting david cameroon would like.
What would he like? Not sure I follow.
A party is its members. I'm not saying one racist member makes a party racist, but ukip seems to attract far more than its fair share. This can't be coincidence.
This is what happens when you promote people on a quota system and not by ability
But Ed Balls is white?
Chukka isn't and he only got where he did by colour not on ability , try and keep up theres a good chap
You have proof of this I presume.
As Chukka is an out and out racist how else do you explain it , even by the standards of Labour the man is a total buffoon