It is tricky. I have only once, donkeys years ago, as an aside, compared speeds with another car (My Uncle, and our families were all off somewhere on a day out)
But I have developed a feeling for speed. You build up by experience a mental map of sound of the engine, tyre noise, hitting speed humps a little too hard, and what other traffic is doing and other factors.
The feeling is of course not completely scientific. Many mistakes are possible.
Overall I think I can judge 30mph and 40mph fairly well. (Possibly even 52 to 57)
So then, how accurate is my judgement based on the environment?
And I have 34 years experience of driving. I accept that others must learn too, as I continue to do.
I also have old DIY experience of fixing cars (when we used to) and knew if you change the tyres or profiles or messed with the gearbox, the speedo could be wrong.
A new Speedo unit from the scrapyard would have caught me out (if I had ever done that)
My feeling is that the OP, if a safe, considerate driver, should not lose their job over a temporary aberration
Many thousands of drivers do succeed in their argument, but it takes careful wording and legal advice in Court.
With all due respect, ditch the "Not my fault" argument and explain why it would be a disaster and an unusual circumstance which will never be repeated. And apologies to the Courts as well (they like that)
I recall a specific case (which made the newspapers) where a guy driving a Granada Scorpio was nicked for going through a red light.
He tried to mitigate the offence by claiming that his ABS had failed and that was the reason he went through the red light.
As a result, he was also prosecuted for failing to maintain his car in a roadworthy condition.
Sympathy and well-wishes aside, that is the sort of response you can actually expect from the judicial system.
Although it does appear that it may be taken into account as a mitigating factor - link
Q:
How do I report that my speedometer is faulty?
A:
If you wish to put forward evidence that your vehicle had a faulty speedometer at the time of the alleged offence, you should request a court hearing, as the Magistrates' Court is the appropriate judiciary body to consider such evidence.
Also, if the OP might lose her job as a result of a disqualification, that might be taken into account as a hardship - further link
An offender who is pleading guilty may find it worthwhile to use mitigating circumstances to reduce the sentence level. Mitigating circumstances can include specific reasons for speeding including medical emergencies. Pleading that hardship will apply if disqualification is intended might also mean the sentence is reduced. Hardship can include the likely loss of a job if disqualified. Hardship can also mean that family members such as sick family members will be adversely affected with regards to family transportation means.
At the end of the day she is obviously guilty in this strict liability offence, and yes, she should have taken some action prior to getting 4 tickets, but I still feel that there is an element of unfair expectation with regards to speedos, so it is well worth her putting this POV forward in an court hearing.
I disagree. A faulty speedo is likely to act as mitigation against a totting up ban, provided that the OP gets suitable legal advice/support. I reckon the speeding fines will stand, along with the points, but that doesn't necessarily mean a ban will follow.
As to driving a faulty car. The OP has acted reasonably by having it dealer serviced. That should be enough.
Well, having never been in line for a driving ban, I'm not sure what the procedure is.
Claiming that the speedo' was faulty might cause a judge to be more lenient with a ban but, then again, the judge might wonder why somebody had suddenly decided their speedo was at fault now, when they're due for a ban, rather than after a previous offence.
Seems like there's only 2 possibilities here:-
1) The person has been driving a car for a year with a dodgy speedo', ignored it despite getting multiple speeding fines and only saw fit to take issue with when a ban was impending.
2) The person racked-up 3 legitimate speeding offences and then, unfortunately (and coincidentally), their speedo' became faulty and caused the 4th.
Neither of those scenarios paint the defendant as somebody particularly worthy of sympathy IMO.
In the former case, the person has clearly failed to maintain their vehicle properly and has only decided to investigate when they were threatened with a ban.
In the latter case, the person is a serial offender who, in all probability, would be likely to re-offend regardless of the condition of the speedo.
Well, having never been in line for a driving ban, I'm not sure what the procedure is.
Claiming that the speedo' was faulty might cause a judge to be more lenient with a ban but, then again, the judge might wonder why somebody had suddenly decided their speedo was at fault now, when they're due for a ban, rather than after a previous offence.
Seems like there's only 2 possibilities here:-
1) The person has been driving a car for a year with a dodgy speedo', ignored it despite getting multiple speeding fines and only saw fit to take issue with when a ban was impending.
2) The person racked-up 3 legitimate speeding offences and then, unfortunately (and coincidentally), their speedo' became faulty and caused the 4th.
Neither of those scenarios paint the defendant as somebody particularly worthy of sympathy IMO.
In the former case, the person has clearly failed to maintain their vehicle properly and has only decided to investigate when they were threatened with a ban.
In the latter case, the person is a serial offender who, in all probability, would be likely to re-offend regardless of the condition of the speedo.
You're determined to see her get a ban, aren't you Si ^_^
But I have developed a feeling for speed. You build up by experience a mental map of sound of the engine, tyre noise, hitting speed humps a little too hard, and what other traffic is doing and other factors.
Must admit, I'm not sure about that.
I've had my Porsche for more than 10 years and I'd got to feel completely "natural" about driving it.
I indulged in some upgrades which required bigger brakes and, thus, bigger wheels (with lower profile tyres in an attempt to retain roughly the same rolling diameter) but the changes completely threw my perceptions of what felt "normal".
The car "felt" slower in acceleration and slower at steady speeds, due to slightly lower engine revs.
I think that it's just a case of people becoming "comfortable" with a set of circumstances.
Once that does happen, of course, you certainly can "feel" when anything changes.
Many thousands of drivers do succeed in their argument, but it takes careful wording and legal advice in Court.
With all due respect, ditch the "Not my fault" argument and explain why it would be a disaster and an unusual circumstance which will never be repeated. And apologies to the Courts as well (they like that)
The Solicitors tomorrow will advise better.
Very true.
I think a defence along the lines of "I realise I'm in the wrong but I could lose my job over this and I've become aware that my speedo might not be accurate and I'm currently getting that repaired" is more likely to succeed than "I get my car serviced by a dealership so it's not my fault that the speedo is faulty".
The thread is quite long now but haven't all the offences happened quite recently? If so having owned the car for a year doesn't that point to something having gone wrong in it recent times? It will be interesting to see if the garage does confirm it is faulty and if so why? The "why" is important as one of the points raised is how often should we be checking and how to do it.
There you go, OP. Don't contest it in case you annoy someone. Wonderfully sage advice!
I think the point is more that flat-out refusing to take responsibility for a thing and, instead, simply blame it on others is likely to evoke less sympathy than a more diplomatic approach.
There you go, OP. Don't contest it in case you annoy someone. Wonderfully sage advice!
The defendant's attitude towards their offence is taken into account in sentencing. "Yeah but no but it wasn't my fault but I didn't know but I know I could have but I didn't and I don't think I should have and yeah but no but" is just going to wind up whoever's making the decision on the day. "I know I'm at fault for not checking after the first and second offence and I understand the seriousness of this. I've taken steps since to check my speedo's accuracy and have it fixed so that this can't happen again" is a much more useful response for the OP to make. I was on her side twelve pages ago before she started arguing back at everything.
TBH, I think the problem is that you're reading objective information and advice and then applying any "sanctimonious 'holier than thou'" overtones for yourself.
There ARE ways to check the accuracy of your speedo'.
If you choose not to avail yourself of them, or refuse to consider them useful, or choose to bemoan the lack of an official system of verification, or simply chose to "hope for the best" instead, that's up to you but it doesn't negate the fact that those methods ARE available and you chose not to make use of them.
Let's face it, when you check you tyre treads you're not relying on an official system of verification or making use of a calibrated device.
You're simply using a tool that is at your disposal to help you make an informed judgement.
You don't wilfully refuse to check your tyre treads simply because you assume the tyres were legal when you bought them, that your tread-depth gauge isn't calibrated or that there should be an official method of checking them instead.
A person can check their speedo' in exactly the same way so why not just, y'know, do it?
spot on,just the usual these days abdication of responsibility
ignorance is no defence, people need to remember its a speed limit eg a maximum speed not a required speed
Going off at a slight tangent but I was thinking about how far the drivers responsibility goes. Recently in the news thousands of cars were recalled because of potential faulty air bags. Now if my airbags deployed incorrectly or not at all is that my fault too? After all there is to my knowledge no way I can know or check them. Does this also form part of making sure my car is roadworthy?
I am female and have a six month's old car and I never thought to check my speedometer - I am very careful about adhering to driving conditions and sticking to posted speed limits. I am pretty good at tuning cars out that are too close to me.
This thread has really made me think and has me a little worried. I haven't received any speeding fines which makes me think my speedometer is working fine, but I don't have/need a sat nav and I turn my phone off whilst I am driving so those won't help.
Too much coffee, I hope things turn out ok for you; I am so sorry to hear about your speedometer, take care.
The defendant's attitude towards their offence is taken into account in sentencing. "Yeah but no but it wasn't my fault but I didn't know but I know I could have but I didn't and I don't think I should have and yeah but no but" is just going to wind up whoever's making the decision on the day. "I know I'm at fault for not checking after the first and second offence and I understand the seriousness of this. I've taken steps since to check my speedo's accuracy and have it fixed so that this can't happen again" is a much more useful response for the OP to make. I was on her side twelve pages ago before she started arguing back at everything.
Well she'd certainly have the book thrown at her if you were making the judgement, that's for sure.
Other more reasonable people might well take into account the relevance of what she had to say.
Oh, and she is taking steps to have any issues rectified. She's already made that abundantly clear.
It'd be rather funny if it was the OP of this thread who's been tailgating blueblade, thus provoking him to moan about speedo's as well.
It was many different motorists on one stretch of road. Doesn't happen now I've changed route. I've actually e mailed the local constabulary to advise them that motorists are deliberately exceeding the speed limit there by up to twice the legal limit, judging by the way they bombed past me, when the other side of the road was clear. My speedo may have been slightly under reading, but not by -30mph.
The defendant's attitude towards their offence is taken into account in sentencing. "Yeah but no but it wasn't my fault but I didn't know but I know I could have but I didn't and I don't think I should have and yeah but no but" is just going to wind up whoever's making the decision on the day. "I know I'm at fault for not checking after the first and second offence and I understand the seriousness of this. I've taken steps since to check my speedo's accuracy and have it fixed so that this can't happen again" is a much more useful response for the OP to make. I was on her side twelve pages ago before she started arguing back at everything.
All she needs to say is that she has had her speedometer checked and discovered that when it shows 50 the car is doing 58, she has proof so can that be taken into account. But I'm sure she knows that.
Whatever the outcome I'm sure it will be less of an ordeal for her than being bombarded with blame . Still, there will be some who will leave the thread in the satisfied glow of believing they won the argument.
Only in that Volvo would probably be responsible for repairing it (at their cost), and while it makes no difference as speeding is speeding, it 'might' encourage a court to offer leniency?.
Technically, possibly not....Every crime, whether it be a deliberate act or criminal negligence, requires the usual habeas corpus and mens rea. The latter pertains to "reasonable expectation that you could be doing something negligently". In a case like speeding, you have visual indicators which you should trust to be your benchmark. As long as you have taken "reasonable" precaution in maintaining your vehicle, you might possibly be able to claim that you couldn't have known that you were speeding, no mens rea, therefore no crime took place!
Once you've owned the car for a year, however, I'm afraid it becomes more of your own responsibility to have a car that's roadworthy.
Out of interest, how often do you (and other FMs) take their cars in for speedo calibration?
I've had 4 cars over 18 years and I'm ashamed to say I've never had it done once.
So, considering that I would have no knowledge as to how one differential differs from another, then it would be quite usual for me to accept the dealer's word on that?
Yes. The law is generally built around "reasonableness". You are expected to have a "reasonable" knowledge about your vehicle's roadworthyness. Of course, it's a slightly ambiguous term, but that's designed to leave it open to a judge to use common sense.
If you can show that you did everything reasonable to prevent a crime having taken place, then you can generally avoid prosecution.
Out of interest, how often do you (and other FMs) take their cars in for speedo calibration?
I've had 4 cars over 18 years and I'm ashamed to say I've never had it done once.
I have sort of. I don't have a satnav or smart phone but I do have a tablet which I downloaded a sat nav app on to. I then put it in the car to try it out and when dong so noticed it also displayed the speed. So I have but wasn't trying to, it was really an accidental test. I suspect that us as near as the vast majority of drivers do. I have never taken my car anywhere for a specific test though.
Out of interest, how often do you (and other FMs) take their cars in for speedo calibration?
I've had 4 cars over 18 years and I'm ashamed to say I've never had it done once.
I have been driving for 45 years odd and I have never asked for a speedo to be calibrated nor has it ever even occurred to me to nor have I ever heard of anyone else having one calibrated.
On the other hand; and I am not wishing in any way to comment on what the OP did or did not do as I do not have enough information about the circumstances; if my car's speedo was under reading by some 12% I am fairly sure I would notice after the first 30-40 miles. Even if I did not sense it and or did not cross check with my sat nav the sudden speed differential with other cars would come to my attention. At least on the kind of roads I mainly use.
Other roads and experiences are available. ;-):D
Edit in practise I am frequently checking both speedo and sat nav speed and I would notice any discrepancy quickly but this is not relevant to the OP as they did not have such equipment nor is it a legal requirement that they should have.
I am female and have a six month's old car and I never thought to check my speedometer - I am very careful about adhering to driving conditions and sticking to posted speed limits. I am pretty good at tuning cars out that are too close to me.
This thread has really made me think and has me a little worried. I haven't received any speeding fines which makes me think my speedometer is working fine, but I don't have/need a sat nav and I turn my phone off whilst I am driving so those won't help.
Too much coffee, I hope things turn out ok for you; I am so sorry to hear about your speedometer, take care.
TBH I think the chances of you having an under reading speedo are very small. I've been a member here a very long time and don't recall it coming up before. That's what has made the thread so interesting! It's also very important as if you did have such a problem it would be very easy to commit multiple offences in a very short period of time.
Out of interest, how often do you (and other FMs) take their cars in for speedo calibration?
I've had 4 cars over 18 years and I'm ashamed to say I've never had it done once.
I never have either. Never needed to.
I've checked the accuracy of my speedo' pretty-much every time I've driven a car in the last decade or so via the use of a satnav though.
Takes all of about 5 seconds.
Comments
It is tricky. I have only once, donkeys years ago, as an aside, compared speeds with another car (My Uncle, and our families were all off somewhere on a day out)
But I have developed a feeling for speed. You build up by experience a mental map of sound of the engine, tyre noise, hitting speed humps a little too hard, and what other traffic is doing and other factors.
The feeling is of course not completely scientific. Many mistakes are possible.
Overall I think I can judge 30mph and 40mph fairly well. (Possibly even 52 to 57)
So then, how accurate is my judgement based on the environment?
And I have 34 years experience of driving. I accept that others must learn too, as I continue to do.
I also have old DIY experience of fixing cars (when we used to) and knew if you change the tyres or profiles or messed with the gearbox, the speedo could be wrong.
A new Speedo unit from the scrapyard would have caught me out (if I had ever done that)
My feeling is that the OP, if a safe, considerate driver, should not lose their job over a temporary aberration
Many thousands of drivers do succeed in their argument, but it takes careful wording and legal advice in Court.
With all due respect, ditch the "Not my fault" argument and explain why it would be a disaster and an unusual circumstance which will never be repeated. And apologies to the Courts as well (they like that)
The Solicitors tomorrow will advise better.
Although it does appear that it may be taken into account as a mitigating factor - link
Also, if the OP might lose her job as a result of a disqualification, that might be taken into account as a hardship - further link
At the end of the day she is obviously guilty in this strict liability offence, and yes, she should have taken some action prior to getting 4 tickets, but I still feel that there is an element of unfair expectation with regards to speedos, so it is well worth her putting this POV forward in an court hearing.
Well, having never been in line for a driving ban, I'm not sure what the procedure is.
Claiming that the speedo' was faulty might cause a judge to be more lenient with a ban but, then again, the judge might wonder why somebody had suddenly decided their speedo was at fault now, when they're due for a ban, rather than after a previous offence.
Seems like there's only 2 possibilities here:-
1) The person has been driving a car for a year with a dodgy speedo', ignored it despite getting multiple speeding fines and only saw fit to take issue with when a ban was impending.
2) The person racked-up 3 legitimate speeding offences and then, unfortunately (and coincidentally), their speedo' became faulty and caused the 4th.
Neither of those scenarios paint the defendant as somebody particularly worthy of sympathy IMO.
In the former case, the person has clearly failed to maintain their vehicle properly and has only decided to investigate when they were threatened with a ban.
In the latter case, the person is a serial offender who, in all probability, would be likely to re-offend regardless of the condition of the speedo.
You're determined to see her get a ban, aren't you Si ^_^
Must admit, I'm not sure about that.
I've had my Porsche for more than 10 years and I'd got to feel completely "natural" about driving it.
I indulged in some upgrades which required bigger brakes and, thus, bigger wheels (with lower profile tyres in an attempt to retain roughly the same rolling diameter) but the changes completely threw my perceptions of what felt "normal".
The car "felt" slower in acceleration and slower at steady speeds, due to slightly lower engine revs.
I think that it's just a case of people becoming "comfortable" with a set of circumstances.
Once that does happen, of course, you certainly can "feel" when anything changes.
Very true.
I think a defence along the lines of "I realise I'm in the wrong but I could lose my job over this and I've become aware that my speedo might not be accurate and I'm currently getting that repaired" is more likely to succeed than "I get my car serviced by a dealership so it's not my fault that the speedo is faulty".
When you're a pessimist, you can only ever be pleasantly surprised. ;-)
There you go, OP. Don't contest it in case you annoy someone. Wonderfully sage advice!
At a local Speed Camera near me everyone slows down to 28mph (some flat-cappers slow to 24 or 20mph)
On local higher speed roads it's 48, 58 or 68. By my speedo.
Or perhaps dead-on 50, 60 or 70 for drivers who seem to be regulars.
Based on several years and thousands of cars. I think my speedo is accurate enough.
And I know how my car sounds, and how the environment 'rushes' by at those speeds.
If the OP avoids a ban, there will still be the problem of any inadvertent further offence.
Maybe she would need a flat-cap too
I think the point is more that flat-out refusing to take responsibility for a thing and, instead, simply blame it on others is likely to evoke less sympathy than a more diplomatic approach.
The defendant's attitude towards their offence is taken into account in sentencing. "Yeah but no but it wasn't my fault but I didn't know but I know I could have but I didn't and I don't think I should have and yeah but no but" is just going to wind up whoever's making the decision on the day. "I know I'm at fault for not checking after the first and second offence and I understand the seriousness of this. I've taken steps since to check my speedo's accuracy and have it fixed so that this can't happen again" is a much more useful response for the OP to make. I was on her side twelve pages ago before she started arguing back at everything.
It'd be rather funny if it was the OP of this thread who's been tailgating blueblade, thus provoking him to moan about speedo's as well.
spot on,just the usual these days abdication of responsibility
ignorance is no defence, people need to remember its a speed limit eg a maximum speed not a required speed
This thread has really made me think and has me a little worried. I haven't received any speeding fines which makes me think my speedometer is working fine, but I don't have/need a sat nav and I turn my phone off whilst I am driving so those won't help.
Too much coffee, I hope things turn out ok for you; I am so sorry to hear about your speedometer, take care.
Well she'd certainly have the book thrown at her if you were making the judgement, that's for sure.
Other more reasonable people might well take into account the relevance of what she had to say.
Oh, and she is taking steps to have any issues rectified. She's already made that abundantly clear.
It was many different motorists on one stretch of road. Doesn't happen now I've changed route. I've actually e mailed the local constabulary to advise them that motorists are deliberately exceeding the speed limit there by up to twice the legal limit, judging by the way they bombed past me, when the other side of the road was clear. My speedo may have been slightly under reading, but not by -30mph.
All she needs to say is that she has had her speedometer checked and discovered that when it shows 50 the car is doing 58, she has proof so can that be taken into account. But I'm sure she knows that.
Whatever the outcome I'm sure it will be less of an ordeal for her than being bombarded with blame . Still, there will be some who will leave the thread in the satisfied glow of believing they won the argument.
Technically, possibly not....Every crime, whether it be a deliberate act or criminal negligence, requires the usual habeas corpus and mens rea. The latter pertains to "reasonable expectation that you could be doing something negligently". In a case like speeding, you have visual indicators which you should trust to be your benchmark. As long as you have taken "reasonable" precaution in maintaining your vehicle, you might possibly be able to claim that you couldn't have known that you were speeding, no mens rea, therefore no crime took place!
Out of interest, how often do you (and other FMs) take their cars in for speedo calibration?
I've had 4 cars over 18 years and I'm ashamed to say I've never had it done once.
Yes. The law is generally built around "reasonableness". You are expected to have a "reasonable" knowledge about your vehicle's roadworthyness. Of course, it's a slightly ambiguous term, but that's designed to leave it open to a judge to use common sense.
If you can show that you did everything reasonable to prevent a crime having taken place, then you can generally avoid prosecution.
I have sort of. I don't have a satnav or smart phone but I do have a tablet which I downloaded a sat nav app on to. I then put it in the car to try it out and when dong so noticed it also displayed the speed. So I have but wasn't trying to, it was really an accidental test. I suspect that us as near as the vast majority of drivers do. I have never taken my car anywhere for a specific test though.
I have been driving for 45 years odd and I have never asked for a speedo to be calibrated nor has it ever even occurred to me to nor have I ever heard of anyone else having one calibrated.
On the other hand; and I am not wishing in any way to comment on what the OP did or did not do as I do not have enough information about the circumstances; if my car's speedo was under reading by some 12% I am fairly sure I would notice after the first 30-40 miles. Even if I did not sense it and or did not cross check with my sat nav the sudden speed differential with other cars would come to my attention. At least on the kind of roads I mainly use.
Other roads and experiences are available. ;-):D
Edit in practise I am frequently checking both speedo and sat nav speed and I would notice any discrepancy quickly but this is not relevant to the OP as they did not have such equipment nor is it a legal requirement that they should have.
TBH I think the chances of you having an under reading speedo are very small. I've been a member here a very long time and don't recall it coming up before. That's what has made the thread so interesting! It's also very important as if you did have such a problem it would be very easy to commit multiple offences in a very short period of time.
I never have either. Never needed to.
I've checked the accuracy of my speedo' pretty-much every time I've driven a car in the last decade or so via the use of a satnav though.
Takes all of about 5 seconds.