When a service physically swaps TP then all cable headends carrying it (most cable platforms will re-Mux DSAT derived feeds of channels) need a dual illuminated period for retuning downlink receivers. In this case it's 100% guaranteed that neither of the two channels involved are on either DCAB platforms or Freesat.
Given these swaps, and if I were a gambling man, I'd have a good guess TP's 65 and 67 (from 73 and 74) will be UK spot and 95 and 96 (from75 and 76) will be PE. We've never seen PE activity in either Bands C or D, maybe this will change but we'll find out!
I see interesting about having to have both versions at once I see why though.
I just wonder about the C and D bands certainly in the C band Flysat I believe are listing a data tp with a pan Europe beam on 2G that even switched from 2F, so anything is possible.
Yes I have just checked and tps 67 and 72 on 2G are data tps on Europe beams, with another still on 2F apparently which is tp 60.
Tp 71 is a data tp too on a middle east beam according to flysat.
Does anyone know or have any idea what beam, UK or Europe, that the 4 transponders 113, 114, 115, 116, that will be on Astra 2E, that are going to replace C5&C6 upper and lower, will be?
The two active data TP's in band C are currently running from 2C - reports from abroad confirm it being a tad wider than 2E/F's PE footprint, not to say it could have migrated over to 2G, Lyngsat is your best source for information, the rest are just updated by people posting reports etc.
I strongly suspect that the last four E28A TP's will go UK spot, including the FS Home TP, we'll certainly know for sure by the time people wake up on Monday morning. If you look at the pattern, all the TP's with the lower grade/niche channels (TA1, 3, 103, 104 and 75) that have loads of channels crammed in all seem to be going PE, others, some of which carry CBS, CSC and other channels running at a tad higher bitrate-wise are on the UK spots. 11.426V is a TP which I'd almost guarantee is going to be UK spot, based on this pattern.
The two active data TP's in band C are currently running from 2C - reports from abroad confirm it being a tad wider than 2E/F's PE footprint, not to say it could have migrated over to 2G, Lyngsat is your best source for information, the rest are just updated by people posting reports etc.
I strongly suspect that the last four E28A TP's will go UK spot, including the FS Home TP, we'll certainly know for sure by the time people wake up on Monday morning. If you look at the pattern, all the TP's with the lower grade/niche channels (TA1, 3, 103, 104 and 75) that have loads of channels crammed in all seem to be going PE, others, some of which carry CBS, CSC and other channels running at a tad higher bitrate-wise are on the UK spots. 11.426V is a TP which I'd almost guarantee is going to be UK spot, based on this pattern.
And not only that I think we should see an adjustment of frequencies in the A band:
Tps 105 11225 H,
106 11225 V,
107 11265 and
108 11265
on Astra 2G are already at Astra's final positions,
I believe tps;
109 11305 H,
110 11305 V,
111 11345 H and
112 11345 V
have moved from;
11307 H,
11307 V,
11347 H,
11347 V
respectively anyway when they went over to 2F, or will do next week perhaps.
Which just leaves us with the four last tps still on Eutelsat 28A, C5&6 upper and lower, which I believe will end up being at:
113 11385 H,
114 11385 V,
115 11425 V (freesat home tp)and
116 11425 V
On Astra 2E UK beam.
This is party guess work but based on the links I gave to digi man back earlier in this thread yesterday.
I didn't know about the C band tps still operating on 2C, I guess 2F couldn't actually do a European beam in the C band after all?
I believe that 2G can though, which must be why they wanted it covering that band instead of 2F?
2E appears not to be able to do any C band at all.
Lyngsat I do know about, he hasn't caught up with the B band final tp positions and is still listing the old Eutelsat28A D TPs in that position.
However he has 2C off the 28° East page, like flysat does, so that insinuates that its not being used at present.
The migrated A band TP's have already been changed and on their final allocated centre frequencies. Once the transition of C5 and C6 has been carried out early Monday morning, together with EPG novation to the new 2G TP's for 97, 98, 103 and 104 later on Monday the NIT will be tidied up. This will take place Monday, the interim TP'carriers dropped Tuesday 30th. All left then is migration of 73-76 which commences 2nd July.
Whether 2F could do PE in band C is an unknown, your right that 2G stands a better chance at its possibility to do so but still not a given! The design of satellites are a secret only shared between operator, uplink providers and manufacturer. I'm also very keen to know as are many and we may find out after 1am BST on the 2nd.
I wonder if BT Sport would be crafty enough to put their HD versions on a PE footprint, as they have, but leave the SD ones on a UK spot, forcing expats, bars and clubs abroad who want them to pay the additional HD fee to get them. A good money spinner and would do the same myself!
The migrated A band TP's have already been changed and on their final allocated centre frequencies. Once the transition of C5 and C6 has been carried out early Monday morning, together with EPG novation to the new 2G TP's for 97, 98, 103 and 104 later on Monday the NIT will be tidied up. This will take place Monday, the interim TP'carriers dropped Tuesday 30th. All left then is migration of 73-76 which commences 2nd July.
Whether 2F could do PE in band C is an unknown, your right that 2G stands a better chance at its possibility to do so but still not a given! The design of satellites are a secret only shared between operator, uplink providers and manufacturer. I'm also very keen to know as are many and we may find out after 1am BST on the 2nd.
I wonder if BT Sport would be crafty enough to put their HD versions on a PE footprint, as they have, but leave the SD ones on a UK spot, forcing expats, bars and clubs abroad who want them to pay the additional HD fee to get them. A good money spinner and would do the same myself!
Yes putting the BT sports SD channels on a UK beam is a good idea to make money!
I didn't realise that the G band needed tidying up too I guess that won't take long once Eutelsat28A is gone.
Does anyone know or have any idea what beam, UK or Europe, that the 4 transponders 113, 114, 115, 116, that will be on Astra 2E, that are going to replace C5&C6 upper and lower, will be?
Roll on expats across Europe complaining that freesat no longer works in Europe!
From the channels that have already been passed over from Eutelsat 28A to the Astra satellites, it's clear that quite a few Sky channels are fully encrypted but are also on European wide beam transponders. There's some hope then for English language programming on continental Europe but expats might now have to arrange for subscriptions via their remaining relatives in the UK.
From the channels that have already been passed over from Eutelsat 28A to the Astra satellites, it's clear that quite a few Sky channels are fully encrypted but are also on European wide beam transponders. There's some hope then for English language programming on continental Europe but expats might now have to arrange for subscriptions via their remaining relatives in the UK.
I agree too, can now see a position for both Sky and Freesat where anything worth watching FTA is on UK spot TP's, a Sky sub will be the only way people will receive anything UK based worth watching, apart from music, religion and shopping channels! It's this reason I strongly believe that the Freesat Home TP will go UK spot on its 2E migration as all the decent entertainment channels on FS will be spotbeam anyway! We'll find out by 06.00hrs Monday morning.
Can I please pick your brains once again to confirm my understanding of the different Irish and pubs versions of the channels in the sports genre. I'm updating the tv channels website and have checked Lyngsat and oher listings but there are some contradictions.
If I set out my understanding perhaps you could confirm or correct?
Pubs
Separate versions (adverts differ) for
- all Sky Sports channels in both SD and HD, excluding the sports box office channels (the ones I'm uncertain about are F1 and F1 HD)
- Setanta Ireland
- Setanta Sports 1
Do all the BT Sport channels have separate pub versions? I've seen something suggesting that all apart from BT Sport ESPN HD may do but I've seen other suggestions that none of them have separate versions.
Ireland
Different version to the UK versions (again just ads) for
- Sky Sports 1 to 5 and HQ all in SD
- Sky Sports 1 HD
- Sky Sports HQ HD
- At the Races
I believe there are currently no separate Irish versions for any of the BT channels?
I agree too, can now see a position for both Sky and Freesat where anything worth watching FTA is on UK spot TP's, a Sky sub will be the only way people will receive anything UK based worth watching, apart from music, religion and shopping channels! It's this reason I strongly believe that the Freesat Home TP will go UK spot on its 2E migration as all the decent entertainment channels on FS will be spotbeam anyway! We'll find out by 06.00hrs Monday morning.
I wonder if the local TV channels could rent cheap space on the freest tp, if it switched to a UK beam that is, allowing them to get onto freesat especially if the FEC was also dropped to 5/6 or lower?
I agree too, can now see a position for both Sky and Freesat where anything worth watching FTA is on UK spot TP's, a Sky sub will be the only way people will receive anything UK based worth watching, apart from music, religion and shopping channels! It's this reason I strongly believe that the Freesat Home TP will go UK spot on its 2E migration as all the decent entertainment channels on FS will be spotbeam anyway! We'll find out by 06.00hrs Monday morning.
...which will presumably render a dedicated Freesat box pretty much useless (except as a large paperweight) for expats except those who live in Brittany, Normandy, Flanders and indeed the Faeroe Islands. I think that Sky stands to gain if that happens because even their base level Original Bundle would deliver quite a few UKTV and Sky channels as well as Sky News and any relevant encrypted local TV channels. While all this might technically be outside Sky's terms and conditions, I'm not sure it's worth their while delving into these matters too deeply if they're getting a regular subscription income from British expats in western Europe.
...which will presumably render a dedicated Freesat box pretty much useless (except as a large paperweight) for expats except those who live in Brittany, Normandy, Flanders and indeed the Faeroe Islands.
The UK spots go a lot further than that if you accept you might need a bigger dish than the normal Sky issued type. Plenty of people in Spain are still watching Freesat for example. Southern Sweden also enjoys good reception. The biggest problems are the narrow bands of nulls running between the hot spots.
The UK spots go a lot further than that if you accept you might need a bigger dish than the normal Sky issued type. Plenty of people in Spain are still watching Freesat for example. Southern Sweden also enjoys good reception. The biggest problems are the narrow bands of nulls running between the hot spots.
That is indeed very true, timo_w2s, but how far south and east will that region go before even 1.4m dishes start to have problems, for example?
...which will presumably render a dedicated Freesat box pretty much useless (except as a large paperweight) for expats except those who live in Brittany, Normandy, Flanders and indeed the Faeroe Islands. I think that Sky stands to gain if that happens because even their base level Original Bundle would deliver quite a few UKTV and Sky channels as well as Sky News and any relevant encrypted local TV channels. While all this might technically be outside Sky's terms and conditions, I'm not sure it's worth their while delving into these matters too deeply if they're getting a regular subscription income from British expats in western Europe.
Also freesat don't get anything from providing the service to expats so its no loss to them.
Sky on the other hand do get money for providing services to expats of course, so to put it one way expats are now having to pay for British TV and so I guess there is a contribution from them.
The UK spots go a lot further than that if you accept you might need a bigger dish than the normal Sky issued type. Plenty of people in Spain are still watching Freesat for example. Southern Sweden also enjoys good reception. The biggest problems are the narrow bands of nulls running between the hot spots.
They may well do, but if broadcasters decide that the UK beam is strong enough in the UK to lower the FEC, like ITV have done with one of their transponders this year, then for how long will those good spots last, even if people have a 1.4m dish?
...which will presumably render a dedicated Freesat box pretty much useless (except as a large paperweight) for expats except those who live in Brittany, Normandy, Flanders and indeed the Faeroe Islands. I think that Sky stands to gain if that happens because even their base level Original Bundle would deliver quite a few UKTV and Sky channels as well as Sky News and any relevant encrypted local TV channels. While all this might technically be outside Sky's terms and conditions, I'm not sure it's worth their while delving into these matters too deeply if they're getting a regular subscription income from British expats in western Europe.
I take your point but in those areas where FTA PSB services on the UK spots are now a total no-go, even with 2mtr+ dishes then probably a good assumption that those people will already be using Sky and have at least the basic sub.
In response to the question of LTV on the FS Home TP then they may as well just go spot capacity via their uplink providers rather than pay twice. LTV operators have next to no cash flow, my thoughts were more along the lines of UKTV etc. Use a different non-tunable SR (on a Sky STB) so with the encrypted version still pointed by the EPG on Sky it keeps Sky and UKTV's relationship happy. Might never actually happen but food for thought.
I take your point but in those areas where FTA PSB services on the UK spots are now a total no-go, even with 2mtr+ dishes then probably a good assumption that those people will already be using Sky and have at least the basic sub.
In response to the question of LTV on the FS Home TP then they may as well just go spot capacity via their uplink providers rather than pay twice. LTV operators have next to no cash flow, my thoughts were more along the lines of UKTV etc. Use a different non-tunable SR (on a Sky STB) so with the encrypted version still pointed by the EPG on Sky it keeps Sky and UKTV's relationship happy. Might never actually happen but food for thought.
The current issue in local TV going on uk spot is that they are currently all spread out.
So either they all pull together and rent a transponder wholesale between them, or they rent spare capacity with other PSBs like ITV for example who currently have some space.
Either way like you say they want the cheapest option available to them and this would allow them to drop the encryption too, which would save money as well I believe.
UKTV using the FS Home tp could work, but might having a different symbol rate cause issues for freesat?
The current issue in local TV going on uk spot is that they are currently all spread out.
So either they all pull together and rent a transponder wholesale between them, or they rent spare capacity with other PSBs like ITV for example who currently have some space.
Either way like you say they want the cheapest option available to them and this would allow them to drop the encryption too, which would save money as well I believe.
UKTV using the FS Home tp could work, but might having a different symbol rate cause issues for freesat?
The current LTV channels on UK DSAT have made their own arrangments with relevant uplink operators, not collectively via COMUX as per DTT. I expect that they'll move over time to the UK spot TP's to allow encryption to be removed as, like you say, saves them money.
Panasonic have just done firmware updates for all their products labelled "Freesat Broadcast Change" which would point towards a SR or FEC change potentially being on the cards.
The current LTV channels on UK DSAT have made their own arrangments with relevant uplink operators, not collectively via COMUX as per DTT. I expect that they'll move over time to the UK spot TP's to allow encryption to be removed as, like you say, saves them money.
Panasonic have just done firmware updates for all their products labelled "Freesat Broadcast Change" which would point towards a SR or FEC change potentially being on the cards.
Intriguing with an SR change that could certainly make it beyond the ability to be decoded by a Sky box, if it were me I would make it DVB-S2 30000 8PSK 5/6 if possible, otherwise DVB-S2 29000 8PSK 5/6 if SR 30000 wasn't possible, that would make freesat a HD only platform too!
Its a shame Commux didn't open a UK beam tp to fill with LTV channels as others might have been tempted to join otherwise. Also the FEC could really be pushed on that to make it very unlikely that it would overspill too far over Europe! Only thing is that with the limitations of DVB-S FEC can't really be pushed to far before you don't have any, of course so would they choose no FEC in that instance?
DMAX isn't very successful and seems to have no clear identity or target audience, unlike the other Discovery channels. I wouldn't be surprised if they closed it eventually.
On another note, MTV Classic rebranded to MTV Pride yesterday as expected.
Intriguing with an SR change that could certainly make it beyond the ability to be decoded by a Sky box, if it were me I would make it DVB-S2 30000 8PSK 5/6 if possible, otherwise DVB-S2 29000 8PSK 5/6 if SR 30000 wasn't possible, that would make freesat a HD only platform too!
Its a shame Commux didn't open a UK beam tp to fill with LTV channels as others might have been tempted to join otherwise. Also the FEC could really be pushed on that to make it very unlikely that it would overspill too far over Europe! Only thing is that with the limitations of DVB-S FEC can't really be pushed to far before you don't have any, of course so would they choose no FEC in that instance?
By using DVB-S2 you'll have just rendered a whole load of SD STB's useless, for which there's still a proportion in use. This idea was only a bit of wild thinking which may never happen! By this time tomorrow we will certainly know what 11.428H has migrated to footprint-wise. I am aware that FEC changes are on the cards for the UK spot TA TP's, this no doubt later down the road once all these migrations are finished.
I wonder if there'll be a special celebrationary toast of fine Cava or Champagne in Eutelsat HQ in France tomorrow, in celebration of the achievements of this bird? She's ran well past her sell-by date and kept going to the very end.
Comments
I see interesting about having to have both versions at once I see why though.
I just wonder about the C and D bands certainly in the C band Flysat I believe are listing a data tp with a pan Europe beam on 2G that even switched from 2F, so anything is possible.
Yes I have just checked and tps 67 and 72 on 2G are data tps on Europe beams, with another still on 2F apparently which is tp 60.
Tp 71 is a data tp too on a middle east beam according to flysat.
Edit I just looked on here: http://frequencyplansatellites.altervista.org/Astra/Astra_2E.pdf
and realised it could only be a UK beam!
Roll on expats across Europe complaining that freesat no longer works in Europe!
I strongly suspect that the last four E28A TP's will go UK spot, including the FS Home TP, we'll certainly know for sure by the time people wake up on Monday morning. If you look at the pattern, all the TP's with the lower grade/niche channels (TA1, 3, 103, 104 and 75) that have loads of channels crammed in all seem to be going PE, others, some of which carry CBS, CSC and other channels running at a tad higher bitrate-wise are on the UK spots. 11.426V is a TP which I'd almost guarantee is going to be UK spot, based on this pattern.
And not only that I think we should see an adjustment of frequencies in the A band:
Tps 105 11225 H,
106 11225 V,
107 11265 and
108 11265
on Astra 2G are already at Astra's final positions,
I believe tps;
109 11305 H,
110 11305 V,
111 11345 H and
112 11345 V
have moved from;
11307 H,
11307 V,
11347 H,
11347 V
respectively anyway when they went over to 2F, or will do next week perhaps.
Which just leaves us with the four last tps still on Eutelsat 28A, C5&6 upper and lower, which I believe will end up being at:
113 11385 H,
114 11385 V,
115 11425 V (freesat home tp)and
116 11425 V
On Astra 2E UK beam.
This is party guess work but based on the links I gave to digi man back earlier in this thread yesterday.
I didn't know about the C band tps still operating on 2C, I guess 2F couldn't actually do a European beam in the C band after all?
I believe that 2G can though, which must be why they wanted it covering that band instead of 2F?
2E appears not to be able to do any C band at all.
Lyngsat I do know about, he hasn't caught up with the B band final tp positions and is still listing the old Eutelsat28A D TPs in that position.
However he has 2C off the 28° East page, like flysat does, so that insinuates that its not being used at present.
Whether 2F could do PE in band C is an unknown, your right that 2G stands a better chance at its possibility to do so but still not a given! The design of satellites are a secret only shared between operator, uplink providers and manufacturer. I'm also very keen to know as are many and we may find out after 1am BST on the 2nd.
I wonder if BT Sport would be crafty enough to put their HD versions on a PE footprint, as they have, but leave the SD ones on a UK spot, forcing expats, bars and clubs abroad who want them to pay the additional HD fee to get them. A good money spinner and would do the same myself!
Yes putting the BT sports SD channels on a UK beam is a good idea to make money!
I didn't realise that the G band needed tidying up too I guess that won't take long once Eutelsat28A is gone.
From the channels that have already been passed over from Eutelsat 28A to the Astra satellites, it's clear that quite a few Sky channels are fully encrypted but are also on European wide beam transponders. There's some hope then for English language programming on continental Europe but expats might now have to arrange for subscriptions via their remaining relatives in the UK.
I agree too, can now see a position for both Sky and Freesat where anything worth watching FTA is on UK spot TP's, a Sky sub will be the only way people will receive anything UK based worth watching, apart from music, religion and shopping channels! It's this reason I strongly believe that the Freesat Home TP will go UK spot on its 2E migration as all the decent entertainment channels on FS will be spotbeam anyway! We'll find out by 06.00hrs Monday morning.
Can I please pick your brains once again to confirm my understanding of the different Irish and pubs versions of the channels in the sports genre. I'm updating the tv channels website and have checked Lyngsat and oher listings but there are some contradictions.
If I set out my understanding perhaps you could confirm or correct?
Pubs
Separate versions (adverts differ) for
- all Sky Sports channels in both SD and HD, excluding the sports box office channels (the ones I'm uncertain about are F1 and F1 HD)
- Setanta Ireland
- Setanta Sports 1
Do all the BT Sport channels have separate pub versions? I've seen something suggesting that all apart from BT Sport ESPN HD may do but I've seen other suggestions that none of them have separate versions.
Ireland
Different version to the UK versions (again just ads) for
- Sky Sports 1 to 5 and HQ all in SD
- Sky Sports 1 HD
- Sky Sports HQ HD
- At the Races
I believe there are currently no separate Irish versions for any of the BT channels?
As ever any info gratefully received.
I wonder if the local TV channels could rent cheap space on the freest tp, if it switched to a UK beam that is, allowing them to get onto freesat especially if the FEC was also dropped to 5/6 or lower?
...which will presumably render a dedicated Freesat box pretty much useless
(Is for the ones i know anyway)
That is indeed very true, timo_w2s, but how far south and east will that region go before even 1.4m dishes start to have problems, for example?
I guess they're stuffed then subject to the issues raised immediately above.
In relation to Ireland, you are correct regarding all the Sky channels (1-5,HQ,1HD,HQHD,ATR)
And there are no Irish versions for any of the BT channels (1/2/ESPN)
Also freesat don't get anything from providing the service to expats so its no loss to them.
Sky on the other hand do get money for providing services to expats of course, so to put it one way expats are now having to pay for British TV and so I guess there is a contribution from them.
They may well do, but if broadcasters decide that the UK beam is strong enough in the UK to lower the FEC, like ITV have done with one of their transponders this year, then for how long will those good spots last, even if people have a 1.4m dish?
Thank you mackersdublin, much appreciated
I take your point but in those areas where FTA PSB services on the UK spots are now a total no-go, even with 2mtr+ dishes then probably a good assumption that those people will already be using Sky and have at least the basic sub.
In response to the question of LTV on the FS Home TP then they may as well just go spot capacity via their uplink providers rather than pay twice. LTV operators have next to no cash flow, my thoughts were more along the lines of UKTV etc. Use a different non-tunable SR (on a Sky STB) so with the encrypted version still pointed by the EPG on Sky it keeps Sky and UKTV's relationship happy. Might never actually happen but food for thought.
The current issue in local TV going on uk spot is that they are currently all spread out.
So either they all pull together and rent a transponder wholesale between them, or they rent spare capacity with other PSBs like ITV for example who currently have some space.
Either way like you say they want the cheapest option available to them and this would allow them to drop the encryption too, which would save money as well I believe.
UKTV using the FS Home tp could work, but might having a different symbol rate cause issues for freesat?
The current LTV channels on UK DSAT have made their own arrangments with relevant uplink operators, not collectively via COMUX as per DTT. I expect that they'll move over time to the UK spot TP's to allow encryption to be removed as, like you say, saves them money.
Panasonic have just done firmware updates for all their products labelled "Freesat Broadcast Change" which would point towards a SR or FEC change potentially being on the cards.
Intriguing with an SR change that could certainly make it beyond the ability to be decoded by a Sky box, if it were me I would make it DVB-S2 30000 8PSK 5/6 if possible, otherwise DVB-S2 29000 8PSK 5/6 if SR 30000 wasn't possible, that would make freesat a HD only platform too!
Its a shame Commux didn't open a UK beam tp to fill with LTV channels as others might have been tempted to join otherwise. Also the FEC could really be pushed on that to make it very unlikely that it would overspill too far over Europe! Only thing is that with the limitations of DVB-S FEC can't really be pushed to far before you don't have any, of course so would they choose no FEC in that instance?
On another note, MTV Classic rebranded to MTV Pride yesterday as expected.
By using DVB-S2 you'll have just rendered a whole load of SD STB's useless, for which there's still a proportion in use. This idea was only a bit of wild thinking which may never happen! By this time tomorrow we will certainly know what 11.428H has migrated to footprint-wise. I am aware that FEC changes are on the cards for the UK spot TA TP's, this no doubt later down the road once all these migrations are finished.
I wonder if there'll be a special celebrationary toast of fine Cava or Champagne in Eutelsat HQ in France tomorrow, in celebration of the achievements of this bird? She's ran well past her sell-by date and kept going to the very end.