Try Norfolk. Norwich is the only county capital city not served by a motorway. Indeed the nearest motorway to Norwich as the crow flies serves Schiphol Airport! (The M11 is the other way an hours drive away. It got a dual carriageway eventually - 78 years after first being proposed back in 1936. You have the second most popular seaside resort being served by one single carriageway from the East - and 8-9 mile tailbacks on a Bank Holiday Weekend (come to think of it most weekends in the summer season).
The Railway line is pretty dreadful as well.
No, it's pretty good. To be able to get 120 miles from London to London with frequent trains doing it in under two hours and plenty of cheap off peak fares available is great. I used the service regularly for a couple of years recently and loved it. And, unlike the First Great Western trains I was on recently, the wi-fi works well too.
There can be problems with the overhead wires that apparently were fitted on the cheap in the late 80s.
It wouldn't cost billions if we're simply to avoid Dawlish - but you'd be more on the money if it was about dragging the line into the 21st century, and actually fit for purpose.
That's what happens when you basically don't invest in something - it costs more later on. Like how Dawlish's repair cost a ton whereas slower, steady replacement or strengthening would probably have been cheaper (and that's not accounting for the other losses to the local economy)
National Rail says I can do EUS > MAN or vice versa for £25 advance, one way at 11am tomorrow. 10am ish for £35. Quite a discount from £135 advance or £164 anytime at peak time, though not quite at the level of tickets for a fiver. If Virgin are discounting that heavily that suggests there is plenty of empty seats
?? Er, off peak would be quite a discount from peak, no-one suggested that capacity has been reached at all times, and it's about (conservatively) allowing for future growth. You'd be a bit peeved if you turned up at 7 AM to travel to Manchester for a day's work to be told the first available seat was at 10 or 11.
I can't get an advance ticket from my local station to Paddington tomorrow, however - so that suggests that my local route is either well utilised or dying for extra capacity.
But extra capacity on the Cornwall routes can be fulfilled by extra trains, on the line from London to Birmingham there is no room for extra trains, trains had to be cut to fit in the 140mph end to end services as it was. How would you like it if half of the trains from your local station didn't stop at Plymouth and none did at Exeter?
Not sure what you're trying to prove here?
That when you said "HS2 moves the goalposts. People laughed at the claim that it is needed for the time savings, so they had to move to line capacity instead" you were wrong because at the original HS2 announcement the Transport Secretary put extra capacity FIRST, saying:
"This report makes a powerful case for high-speed rail in Britain. The potential benefits are considerable in terms of extra rail capacity, faster journey times, carbon reduction and environmental improvements."
I like how you fixate on one line there, and assume that psychological benefits don't translate into real ones - like people realising that Cornwall is easier to get to than it used to be, so they'll go there on holiday more often (and tell others that it's not a summer long traffic jam). If it wasn't such a pain to go anywhere, businesses might be enticed down here due to our great quality of life (except for money) and good amenities.
You still seem to be ignoring the fact that the biggest transport improvements are always going to be for the spine, not the ends, of the network, whether it be road or rail.
What are you on about? You can simply avoid Dawlish by building a line that... avoids it. Like the proposed line via Okehampton, as the article suggests.
?? Er, off peak would be quite a discount from peak, no-one suggested that capacity has been reached at all times, and it's about (conservatively) allowing for future growth. You'd be a bit peeved if you turned up at 7 AM to travel to Manchester for a day's work to be told the first available seat was at 10 or 11.
£100+ discounts is rather more than a simple offpeak discount, though - that is deep discounting territory. That is £100+ off the "full price" off peak price
I'd hope that if you have a need to get an early morning train, you'd plan ahead - not expecting there to be acres of seats at peak time in the hopes you might turn up or might not.
The rest of the country faces this reality every day.
But extra capacity on the Cornwall routes can be fulfilled by extra trains, on the line from London to Birmingham there is no room for extra trains, trains had to be cut to fit in the 140mph end to end services as it was. How would you like it if half of the trains from your local station didn't stop at Plymouth and none did at Exeter?
This is not true - hence one of the selling points of the Totnes-Penzance resignalling (whenever that happens) being to allow for a half hourly Cornish mainline service. They can't do it right now, it seems. Of course, the real reason for the resignalling is not to provide a better service - it's to ship the signalling jobs up to Oxfordshire and save money.
Some trains don't stop at Plymouth or Exeter. Not sure what the point is there.
You still seem to be ignoring the fact that the biggest transport improvements are always going to be for the spine, not the ends, of the network, whether it be road or rail.
At some point you have to upgrade the ends, too - rather than leaving them as working railway museums (except that some of the real preserved railways are more modern, save for rolling stock!). UK gov policy of concentrating on the same few areas of the country has been proven to be an abject failure. You also have to think about it in local terms.
When you leave something preserved in aspic for 150 years it's going to cost a bit more to put in the work you neglected to do for all that time
If you want a return to 70s thats fine but anyone with an ounce of sense wouldn't I know that you remember 1978/79 as well as I do you can't seriously want a return to those days can you ?
Maybe you prefer illegal wars leading to deaths of hundreds of thousands and destabilizing not only the Middle East but threatening Europe and the UK or uncontrolled immigration driving down wages and causing massive strain on housing and health services
The Conservatives are far from perfect but they pale into insignificance compared to what Labour has done during its terms in office
What are you on about? You can simply avoid Dawlish by building a line that... avoids it. Like the proposed line via Okehampton, as the article suggests.
You can travel from Exeter to Plymouth direct via Newton Abbot and Totnes without going through Dawlish so not sure what that article is on about. I can understand people wanting to avoid Dawlish but one reason isn't the Riviera line, it is one of the most scenic train journeys along the English coast from Exeter to Paignton.
If you want a return to 70s thats fine but anyone with an ounce of sense wouldn't I know that you remember 1978/79 as well as I do you can't seriously want a return to those days can you ?
Maybe you prefer illegal wars leading to deaths of hundreds of thousands and destabilizing not only the Middle East but threatening Europe and the UK or uncontrolled immigration driving down wages and causing massive strain on housing and health services
The Conservatives are far from perfect but they pale into insignificance compared to what Labour has done during its terms in office
The Tories achieved both those things in one fell swoop when they bombed Libya.
Don't be so ridiculous Libya isn't a patch on Iraq and how does Libya impact on our housing and health services
Libya is a failed state in which IS has an even stronger foothold than it does in Iraq. And why do you think there was such a dramatic increase in migrants crossing the Meditteranean into Europe after Gadaffi fell?
Hint - because Gadaffi's regime policing their own borders was a key part of stopping them.
You can travel from Exeter to Plymouth direct via Newton Abbot and Totnes without going through Dawlish so not sure what that article is on about. I can understand people wanting to avoid Dawlish but one reason isn't the Riviera line, it is one of the most scenic train journeys along the English coast from Exeter to Paignton.
You don't have to stop at Dawlish, but you have to go through it. That's why it was such a big deal when the sea wall collapsed
"Dawlish" in this case is the entire stretch of line near the sea between Exeter and Newton Abbot - the sea is why it is unreliable, even when it hasn't collapsed there are instances where trains have to run slowly (well, even slower than normal) or on one line because of sea spray
I'd rather have a quicker and more reliable journey than a mildly more scenic one.
Libya is a failed state in which IS has an even stronger foothold than it does in Iraq. And why do you think there was such a dramatic increase in migrants crossing the Meditteranean into Europe after Gadaffi fell?
Hint - because Gadaffi's regime policing their own borders was a key part of stopping them.
How many of the refugees from Libya have turned up in the UK ?
I'm not aware that IS had killed hundreds of thousands in Libya or held such a large area in its control as they do in Syria/Iraq its also doesn't explain their hold in Sinai unless we bombed Egypt without anyone noticing , how about the IS partnership with Boku Harum , when did we bomb Nigeria , granted we have bombed Afghanistan where they also have a presence but that was another one of Blairs wars
How many of the refugees from Libya have turned up in the UK ?
I'm not aware that IS had killed hundreds of thousands in Libya or held such a large area in its control as they do in Syria/Iraq its also doesn't explain their hold in Sinai unless we bombed Egypt without anyone noticing , how about the IS partnership with Boku Harum , when did we bomb Nigeria , granted we have bombed Afghanistan where they also have a presence but that was another one of Blairs wars
Libya is a mess, and its a mess of the Tories' making.
And its not refugees from Libya, but refugees from all over Africa who can now travel to Europe through Libya because there's no functional government there to stop them. And they travel through Europe up to Calais, and then where do you think they go?
How many reached Britain? Difficult to say, because by definition they live off the radar, but we can be sure that the number increased as a result of toppling Gadaffi.
What are you on about? You can simply avoid Dawlish by building a line that... avoids it. Like the proposed line via Okehampton, as the article suggests.
You ideal of "simple" is very different from mine. The headline suggested the cost could reach 3.1 billion.
£100+ discounts is rather more than a simple offpeak discount, though - that is deep discounting territory. That is £100+ off the "full price" off peak price
The "Off-Peak Single [Virgin 'Saver Half'] " is £40.80.
I'd hope that if you have a need to get an early morning train, you'd plan ahead - not expecting there to be acres of seats at peak time in the hopes you might turn up or might not.
Business travellers, the sort who pay peak fares and need to travel places for a days work don't always plan ahead that much, they, like I, expect there to be enough capacity on trains to be able to turn up and go if I feel like it.
The rest of the country faces this reality every day.
No, it doesn't. Occasionally I can't get on the train I turn up and go for every morning, i get the next one 3 minutes later.
This is not true - hence one of the selling points of the Totnes-Penzance resignalling (whenever that happens) being to allow for a half hourly Cornish mainline service. They can't do it right now, it seems. Of course, the real reason for the resignalling is not to provide a better service - it's to ship the signalling jobs up to Oxfordshire and save money.
Link? The mainline service is every two hours at the moment anyway so could there's still the capacity for hourly.
Some trains don't stop at Plymouth or Exeter. Not sure what the point is there.
I'm pretty sure they all do. But the point is plenty of people would complain if they couldn't get a direct train to Exeter. Lots of towns on the West Coast Main Line ae now in that position.
At some point you have to upgrade the ends, too - rather than leaving them as working railway museums (except that some of the real preserved railways are more modern, save for rolling stock!). UK gov policy of concentrating on the same few areas of the country has been proven to be an abject failure. You also have to think about it in local terms.
When you leave something preserved in aspic for 150 years it's going to cost a bit more to put in the work you neglected to do for all that time
Au contraire, the policy of concentrating investment where most people benefit has resulted in significantly increased passenger numbers.
Libya is a mess, and its a mess of the Tories' making.
And its not refugees from Libya, but refugees from all over Africa who can now travel to Europe through Libya because there's no functional government there to stop them. And they travel through Europe up to Calais, and then where do you think they go?
How many reached Britain? Difficult to say, because by definition they live off the radar, but we can be sure that the number increased as a result of toppling Gadaffi.
So you don't have any facts to back up your assumption that refugees have reached Britain
As for Libya being a mess it was already undergoing a civil war so it was in a mess before neither Afghanistan or Iraq were in a mess as you put it before Blairs intervention and are in a far worse state now than they were before
Incidentally it was a NATO operation not a Cameron one
You ideal of "simple" is very different from mine. The headline suggested the cost could reach 3.1 billion.
HS2 "could" reach £50bn too - but I'm sure you'll want to defend the notion that it'll hopefully come in at a lot less. When the government doesn't want to do something, they'll invent reasons against it. Dawlish doesn't fit in with the current government's obsession of the north, so numbers are fudged accordingly. Maybe Dawlish collapse 2 will give us traction (pun not intended)
Business travellers, the sort who pay peak fares and need to travel places for a days work don't always plan ahead that much, they, like I, expect there to be enough capacity on trains to be able to turn up and go if I feel like it.
So the taxpayer should be expected to shell out £50bn to ensure acres of empty seats that aren't needed and may never be? (predictions can go either way in reality)
providing faster journeys between Penzance and Totnes and paving the way for the potential introduction of half-hourly services on the Cornish mainline.
(though faster is BS, it's like 9 minutes faster end to end on a trip that is currently 2 hours or more to get to Exeter)
I'm pretty sure they all do. But the point is plenty of people would complain if they couldn't get a direct train to Exeter. Lots of towns on the West Coast Main Line ae now in that position.
The difference is that those towns likely don't get any real form of service, quite different from not being included in absolutely every intercity service to or from London
Au contraire, the policy of concentrating investment where most people benefit has resulted in significantly increased passenger numbers.
The neglected parts of the network have been seeing passenger growth too - just no changes in speed, reliability or capacity to reward said business. In any other industry that'd be considered scope for upgrades - even on roads - but in the rail world, politicians rule and mediocrity is the order of the day, unless it can be used to buy votes (like the Conservatives' attempt to become the party of "the North", i.e. Manchester)
You don't have to stop at Dawlish, but you have to go through it. That's why it was such a big deal when the sea wall collapsed
I've already told you there is a direct train from Exeter to Plymouth that doesn't go via Dawlish, its route is Exeter-Newton Abbot-Totnes-Plymouth. If you wish to travel by train from Dawlish to Plymouth you have to change at Newton Abbot.
Comments
No, it's pretty good. To be able to get 120 miles from London to London with frequent trains doing it in under two hours and plenty of cheap off peak fares available is great. I used the service regularly for a couple of years recently and loved it. And, unlike the First Great Western trains I was on recently, the wi-fi works well too.
There can be problems with the overhead wires that apparently were fitted on the cheap in the late 80s.
Just because Labour were hopless it doesn't mean the Tories aren't hopeless as well.
Are you going the long way round?
I have always said its a case of who does the least damage and from a personal point of view thats the Conservatives
Rail diversion route.
http://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/2014/09/cost-of-dawlish-diversion-could-reach-31-billion-nr ?? Er, off peak would be quite a discount from peak, no-one suggested that capacity has been reached at all times, and it's about (conservatively) allowing for future growth. You'd be a bit peeved if you turned up at 7 AM to travel to Manchester for a day's work to be told the first available seat was at 10 or 11. But extra capacity on the Cornwall routes can be fulfilled by extra trains, on the line from London to Birmingham there is no room for extra trains, trains had to be cut to fit in the 140mph end to end services as it was. How would you like it if half of the trains from your local station didn't stop at Plymouth and none did at Exeter? That when you said "HS2 moves the goalposts. People laughed at the claim that it is needed for the time savings, so they had to move to line capacity instead" you were wrong because at the original HS2 announcement the Transport Secretary put extra capacity FIRST, saying:
"This report makes a powerful case for high-speed rail in Britain. The potential benefits are considerable in terms of extra rail capacity, faster journey times, carbon reduction and environmental improvements." You still seem to be ignoring the fact that the biggest transport improvements are always going to be for the spine, not the ends, of the network, whether it be road or rail.
The country !
What are you on about? You can simply avoid Dawlish by building a line that... avoids it. Like the proposed line via Okehampton, as the article suggests.
£100+ discounts is rather more than a simple offpeak discount, though - that is deep discounting territory. That is £100+ off the "full price" off peak price
I'd hope that if you have a need to get an early morning train, you'd plan ahead - not expecting there to be acres of seats at peak time in the hopes you might turn up or might not.
The rest of the country faces this reality every day.
This is not true - hence one of the selling points of the Totnes-Penzance resignalling (whenever that happens) being to allow for a half hourly Cornish mainline service. They can't do it right now, it seems. Of course, the real reason for the resignalling is not to provide a better service - it's to ship the signalling jobs up to Oxfordshire and save money.
Some trains don't stop at Plymouth or Exeter. Not sure what the point is there.
At some point you have to upgrade the ends, too - rather than leaving them as working railway museums (except that some of the real preserved railways are more modern, save for rolling stock!). UK gov policy of concentrating on the same few areas of the country has been proven to be an abject failure. You also have to think about it in local terms.
When you leave something preserved in aspic for 150 years it's going to cost a bit more to put in the work you neglected to do for all that time
The people are the country!
If you want a return to 70s thats fine but anyone with an ounce of sense wouldn't I know that you remember 1978/79 as well as I do you can't seriously want a return to those days can you ?
Maybe you prefer illegal wars leading to deaths of hundreds of thousands and destabilizing not only the Middle East but threatening Europe and the UK or uncontrolled immigration driving down wages and causing massive strain on housing and health services
The Conservatives are far from perfect but they pale into insignificance compared to what Labour has done during its terms in office
You can travel from Exeter to Plymouth direct via Newton Abbot and Totnes without going through Dawlish so not sure what that article is on about. I can understand people wanting to avoid Dawlish but one reason isn't the Riviera line, it is one of the most scenic train journeys along the English coast from Exeter to Paignton.
The Tories achieved both those things in one fell swoop when they bombed Libya.
Don't be so ridiculous Libya isn't a patch on Iraq and how does Libya impact on our housing and health services
Libya is a failed state in which IS has an even stronger foothold than it does in Iraq. And why do you think there was such a dramatic increase in migrants crossing the Meditteranean into Europe after Gadaffi fell?
Hint - because Gadaffi's regime policing their own borders was a key part of stopping them.
You don't have to stop at Dawlish, but you have to go through it. That's why it was such a big deal when the sea wall collapsed
"Dawlish" in this case is the entire stretch of line near the sea between Exeter and Newton Abbot - the sea is why it is unreliable, even when it hasn't collapsed there are instances where trains have to run slowly (well, even slower than normal) or on one line because of sea spray
I'd rather have a quicker and more reliable journey than a mildly more scenic one.
How many of the refugees from Libya have turned up in the UK ?
I'm not aware that IS had killed hundreds of thousands in Libya or held such a large area in its control as they do in Syria/Iraq its also doesn't explain their hold in Sinai unless we bombed Egypt without anyone noticing , how about the IS partnership with Boku Harum , when did we bomb Nigeria , granted we have bombed Afghanistan where they also have a presence but that was another one of Blairs wars
In what way was the bombing of Libya illegal? It was approved by a UN resolution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1973
Libya is a mess, and its a mess of the Tories' making.
And its not refugees from Libya, but refugees from all over Africa who can now travel to Europe through Libya because there's no functional government there to stop them. And they travel through Europe up to Calais, and then where do you think they go?
How many reached Britain? Difficult to say, because by definition they live off the radar, but we can be sure that the number increased as a result of toppling Gadaffi.
Illegal or not, it was a vey stupid thing to do.
Also 557 MPs voted for the bombing opposed to only 13 who voted against , the others either abstained or weren't present
So you don't have any facts to back up your assumption that refugees have reached Britain
As for Libya being a mess it was already undergoing a civil war so it was in a mess before neither Afghanistan or Iraq were in a mess as you put it before Blairs intervention and are in a far worse state now than they were before
Incidentally it was a NATO operation not a Cameron one
HS2 "could" reach £50bn too - but I'm sure you'll want to defend the notion that it'll hopefully come in at a lot less. When the government doesn't want to do something, they'll invent reasons against it. Dawlish doesn't fit in with the current government's obsession of the north, so numbers are fudged accordingly. Maybe Dawlish collapse 2 will give us traction (pun not intended)
The off peak ticket National Rail is suggesting is £80.60, for the same train that they are offering a £25 advance on.
So the taxpayer should be expected to shell out £50bn to ensure acres of empty seats that aren't needed and may never be? (predictions can go either way in reality)
3 minutes! Time to get the chequebook out! Luxury, if only people in other parts of the country could do that, rather than waiting an hour or more
The mainline service is roughly hourly at the moment, sometimes more frequent, sometimes not
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/major-package-of-rail-improvements-for-cornwall
(though faster is BS, it's like 9 minutes faster end to end on a trip that is currently 2 hours or more to get to Exeter)
The difference is that those towns likely don't get any real form of service, quite different from not being included in absolutely every intercity service to or from London
The neglected parts of the network have been seeing passenger growth too - just no changes in speed, reliability or capacity to reward said business. In any other industry that'd be considered scope for upgrades - even on roads - but in the rail world, politicians rule and mediocrity is the order of the day, unless it can be used to buy votes (like the Conservatives' attempt to become the party of "the North", i.e. Manchester)
I've already told you there is a direct train from Exeter to Plymouth that doesn't go via Dawlish, its route is Exeter-Newton Abbot-Totnes-Plymouth. If you wish to travel by train from Dawlish to Plymouth you have to change at Newton Abbot.