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Freeview - should be called 'almost-freeview'
Garry_Herring
Posts: 66 Forum Member
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A few of the channels on Freeview require you to get extra 'devices' to view them. When I tried to tune into VintageTV I kept getting the message, "sorry your freeview tv is not compatible with this device" or something like that. I just wish that Freeview would
be like it says...... "Freeview". Its so annoying.
be like it says...... "Freeview". Its so annoying.
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Since TV sets are obviously capable of finding out whether or not they are compatible, (if they weren't, they would not be able to display the message) its a pity they don't just use a bit more intelligence and automatically remove all the non compatible channels from the EPG themselves during initial setup or channel rescan.
It's the MHEG application on the channel that may or may not be compatible - the box doesn't actually know if it's compatible even when displaying so on screen. Based on how my EETV box renders some of the "channels" the unsupported message is done in the most basic of MHEG (the thing that powers the BBC Red button etc) and as the application loads it checks for the extra functionality required and 1) displays a message saying you need internet access, or 2) displays the channel.
It's a shame these services need MHEG in the first place - it would make more sense for 242 just to be an entry in the NIT pointing to an online stream, and when you key in 242 it just loads the video stream. TVPlayer shows channel hopping can be quick, but having to wait 10 seconds+ to get to the first channel is a pain (and all that lead time is just loading the MHEG resources, the picture cuts in as soon as the box requests it). If this was done then the STB's which don't support them could hide the unsupported channels. Services like "Planet Knowledge" or Rabbit are different types of services, compared with Motors TV, CCTV-4, CCTV-News, CCTV-9, Heart, Planet Pop, Clubland, Channel AKA, Rishtey, Vintage TV (etc) which should all really just be extra EPG entries (which the STB should be able to record too).
It's the future of television and how we'll all receive 'channels' in 20 years time when the broadcast signals get switched off*
But that opens up an argument we've lived through a few times before, as people who only have dial-up internet complain that the future can't possibly happen.
*timetable may be made up!
It's the same old argument as with cable TV, and IPTV is just a poor imitation of cable.
I don't expect to still be alive if broadcasting ends, assuming it ever does? - but a small number of people seem to be claiming it will end, with not the slightest evidence to support it.
No evidence, no, other than more and more people using catch-up services instead of broadcast TV, and the growing evidence of today's children ignoring the big screen in favour of YouTube on tablets and phones.
Plus, I suspect that the government would LOVE to auction off the spectrum.
Trouble is, BT and TT have foisted-out so many of these third-rate boxes that people are going to wait as long as possible before paying for "full FV spec" hardware that does something they've never even been able to see or test for themselves. Will Youview fail because it doesn't include those streamed channels - or will Youview effectively kill the FreeviewHD spec - or will the widely expected Freeview replacement come up with a third option and try to get even more money from us with false promises of "really good stuff"?
Sadly, my money's on Freeview streaming dying the death - unless they get those channels onto Youview and into our browsers.
Totally agree if they came straight on when you type in the channel number that would be a good move. It would make it feel more natural. Also we need more of the TV and box makers to actually build their TVs with the right code - as so many early editions appear to have issues supporting them.
As for these channels, they are decent enough as they offer more choice. Motors TV is better on Com7 and that's how I watch it, wish vintage would go the same way.
Oddly, my set top box does! It has no MHEG though it does do HD. Still, what can you expect for less than £25? (delivered).
They use MHEG-IC, they have to load and process the MHEG before the stream will load. The more channels added, the larger the MHEG mini-app carousel will become, taking longer to load the streamed channel.
Also, if we go down the road of allocating a unique LCN to each streamed channel, they would each require a unique PMT. Every additional PMT added uses up more of the overall bitrate, which then isn't available to over the air services. Access to several streamed services via a portal/menu on a single LCN is the best way to add more streamed services without compromising the quality of over the air services.
Not really, cable TV uses DVB-C / DVB-C2 and is more closely related to broadcast terrestrial tv than it is to IPTV.
Actually my YouView box can receive some of the new IPTV channels being streamed to Freeview, but, for some reason, not all. I do agree with some aspects of your post, but take issue with others. For one thing, although the Huawei box that TalkTalk supply is fairly mediocre in terms of speed of operation, there is nothing third rate about the Humax box supplied by BT, which can also be bought at retail and used to pick up the TalkTalk service. Secondly, BT and TalkTalk both use YouView as their own pay TV platforms, agreed, but the quality of their streamed signals is first class - indistinguishable from the best broadcast material. Not so the quality of the streamed stuff now appearing on Freeview. First you have to wait what seems like an age for the red button to appear. Barbeier described what appears next as 'very low definition old videos with all the colour sucked out of them' in terms on which I could not improve. As for the actual programme content, it all boils down to taste, I suppose, but there is nothing there to attract me.
This does cause me to wonder because the BBCiPlayer, which matches BT and TalkTalk streamed material in terms of picture and sound quality, is also a red button service. Does this suggest that the capability is there if only somebody could put some decent stuff on it.
I think it likely that all television will eventually move onto the Internet, but that it won't happen for many years because it will take that long for everybody, regardless of where they live, to have a reliable high speed connection. Once that is achieved, though, why not? Has the process not begun already with BBC3? Correct me if I have this wrong, but, as I understand it, the channel is not actually disappearing altogether, but will continue in some form on the iPlayer for those with high speed broadband.
The actual modulation method is irrelevant, it's still just a poor imitation of cable.
The streams are transport streams which pretty much match what's broadcast over Freeview (on COM7 - i.e. H264).
e.g. for Motors TV
Vintage TV doesn't look too dissimilar to DSAT (in fact it sometimes looks better), and aside from the Aspect ratio Motors TV isn't too dissimilar either (although noticeably worse than that on COM7)
Looking at the capacity actually used
A PMT Entry used 7.48kbps
TV Player uses 49.91kbps
Vintage TV uses 33.18kbps
Therefore the TVPlayer carousel is obviously more efficient than the Arqiva one (as it carries more services) - however from a viewers point of view the Arqiva ones are much easier to access and you also get the EPG integrated with your Freeview channels. 17 PMT entries would use the same capacity as one stereo radio station so not a huge impact on available capacity (if you had more streamed channels than that you'd be (per multiplex) hitting the limits of LCN availability anyway - especially with the blocks reserved for YouView).
Giving them there own LCN's without the MHEG apps would offer improved EPG visibility, and you could record the streams and also have much faster channel hopping.
Of course, if some thought had been put in from the start one of the DVB-T pids on MUX3 could be a pointer to a playlist pulling the list of "channels" delivered via the internet minimising OTA bitrate consumption and potentially providing a second location for channels on COM4-6 but that boat has been well and truly missed. This playlist would also allow Multicast to be leveraged on a suitable box/ISP (e.g. a YouView box connected to BT would be using the Multicast version of Vintage TV from YouView, but connected to EE Broadband it would be using the Arqiva connect unicast stream.
e.g. a Receiver getting all the multiplexes from Waltham could download the file on Multiplex 3, see that it's already got Motors TV or Dave and therefore ignore that entry, but then add Vintage TV on 242. Someone on Nottingham would get Motors TV and Vintage TV over the web, and someone with only Eastwood would get all three over the web. A receiver not connected to the web would then get the traditional OTA services only.
I would have thought it's pretty obvious? - it works by running a cable to your house
However, as I said it's a poor imitation of a proper cable system.
Same here - get some streamed channels and have to assume they are using a system that is "universal" compared with the usual "freeviewHD only" ones. (Incidentally, accessing those working ones involves loading-up a text-based front page and then pressing the red button - is that the same on the fvHD-only services?).
I'd not disagree with you on the rest of your points (you're far better informed that I am and you make a deal of sense) but I stand by my premise that the shear number of TalkTalk YV boxes may well drag the fvHD hardware required IPTV down or wipe it out. If a huge portion of the non-satellite market can't see those channels and isn't even aware of "what it is missing" and so won't feel any need to "upgrade", how long before the advertising revenue dries-up on those channels?
Put simply, with BT and TT both giving such cut-throat "offers" and that includes "free" hardware and extras PLUS the massive number of ultra-cheap YV boxes on ebay, we may even see the market for any other PVR's in UK dry up with the exception of "hobbyists" and they can't really support a practical sales model. The old BT Vision boxes where always "locked" into BT - you left BT and the box wouldn't function at all. The current YV boxes are completely unlocked and that alone makes them a big problem.
Incidentally - just got the latest TT firmware and one noticeable change is a separate section for "apps". It's currently only BBC news and BBC sport (I'm no longer with TT - their customers may see more) but that strikes me as yet another fudge. Surely the whole point of YV was to put stuff like that into the same EPG as "broadcast" channels - to treat everything as "content" and break down the distinctions and need to move in and out of separate menus and sections of the interface.
The PMT is the relevant one, data carousel bitrates are irrelevant. Data can be played out slowly or quickly, the bitrate doesn't tell you the amount of data in the carousel.
For 17 PMTs, but this is a growth area and more channels will be added over time. Keep adding more and you won't just exceed the LCN allocation but will also exceed the data percentage allowed in the multiplex licence.
You want to access MHEG-IC internet streams without MHEG? that should be fun. Giving these internet streams LCNs doesn't make them recordable any more than LCN 200 etc are recordable. PVRs record broadcast streams from the tuner. What you are suggesting would need a significant change to PVR design. I think you are trying to re-invent YouView here.
PVRs designed to handle specific internet streams, such as YouView are another matter. Those boxes are designed to handle those streams, the streams aren't MHEG-IC bolt-ons.
"Dear God man". Just think of it as a long co-ax to a remote antenna. Cable TV doesn't even need an internet connection.
IPTV can be delivered over 4G or satellite internet, so a somewhat flawed view.
Yes, better quality is possible. Bear in mind that many of these channels use this method of delivery because they can't afford to pay for a normal slot on Freeview. With a limited budget, they aren't likely to pay for high quality internet streams.
The streams (Arqiva connects anyway) pretty much are the same as any of the broadcast streams on COM7 (i.e. H264 Transport Streams), if the spec had been written properly in the first place these could be routed through the the recording side of the box easy enough... It's not like all DVB-T2 boxes can access them anyway.
As for PMT's - for less than a single stereo audio feed for the main six multiplexes you could fit all the channels on Freesat into the PMT....